Daredevil-based whip bard?

[Douglas Muir 406]

I know that "whip bard" is a thing that can happen, though I have no idea how it works.

Starting point: two levels of fighter (feats and BAB), 5 of bard. Human, so a total of seven feats.

Daredevil archetype: at 5th level, instead of giving bonuses to hit and damage with inspire courage, she grants +2 to Reflex saves and +4 to Dex skills to herself and any allies who can see her. Also +2 to AC for characters (herself and allies) who moved at least 10' this turn.

The Daredevil also gets +2 on a single CMD of her choice, and +2 on saves against mind-affecting effects including fear effects.

20 point build. Goal: really good at a CMD with that whip. (Disarm? Trip? I suppose trip is overall better.) Also decent at daredevil-type stuff like running around on rooftops and such, and at least half competent in plain vanilla melee if she must.

Suggestions?

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

First attempt:

Str 12
Con 12
Dex 18
Int 13
Wis 11
Cha 16

Ftr 2/ Daredevil Rogue 5

Weapon Finesse, Serpent Lash, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Fury's Fall (add Dex to CMB when tripping). That leaves two feats slots. Fury's Snare looks cool but is really too feeble -- the low Str check means that most foes will bust out in a standard action (and break your whip).

Anyway: this gives CMB (+5 BAB +1 Str +4 Dex +2 feat +2 Daredevil) +14, plus whatever Str or Dex bonuses she can generate from items or buffing. If tripping with a weapon, does one add the weapon's bonuses to CMB?

Also, upon consideration, dropping the fighter levels doesn't hurt much -- same BAB, so you're swapping two feats and some hp for two more levels of bard, with spells and all. Hm.

Doug M.

[ThorGN]

Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery from Ultimate Combat are fairly necessary for this build, I would say.

I believe the answer to your question on Trip weapon bonuses is No. This has been beaten to death in other threads. Search for them.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Aha! I was unaware of the existence of these feats. Excellent.

Okay, Whip Mastery requires Weapon Focus (Whip), so that's two feats. Back come the fighter levels. Being able to do d3+1 damage is no biggie, but no longer provoking AoOs is nice.

If not the enhancements, then what about Weapon Focus? If it doesn't add to my CMB, then it's just an obnoxious feat tax.

Doug M.

[redward]

CRB FAQ wrote:

Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.

Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.

Emphasis mine. So any attack bonuses to a weapon used for a combat maneuver that is performed as an attack action (such as Trip) are applied to the maneuver.

Here's my Archaeologist Bard Trip Build:

Feats:
(BAB +0) Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
(BAB +1) -
(BAB +2) Lingering Performance
(BAB +3) Rogue Talent - Weapon Focus (Whip)
(BAB +3) Whip Mastery
(BAB +4) -
(BAB +5) Improved Whip Mastery
(BAB +6) Rogue Talent: Combat Trick - Combat Reflexes
(BAB +6) Greater Trip
(BAB +7) -
(BAB +8) Greater Whip Mastery
(BAB +9) (Advanced) Rogue Talent: Feat - Weapon Finesse

For a Daredevil, I'd probably do something like this:

Feats:
(BAB +0) Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
(BAB +1) -
(BAB +2) Weapon Focus (Whip)
(BAB +3) -
(BAB +3) Whip Mastery
(BAB +4) -
(BAB +5) Improved Whip Mastery
(BAB +6) -
(BAB +6) Greater Trip
(BAB +7) -
(BAB +8) Greater Whip Mastery
(BAB +9)

ETA:
If you're multiclassing with Fighter, I'd also look at the following for your bonus feats:
Combat Reflexes
Enforcer
Dazzling Display

[Douglas Muir 406]

...you know, upon consideration, I'm less sure about this feat chain.

Unless you're a sneak-attacking rogue, the ability to consistently do damage with a whip is pretty irrelevant -- d3+1 just isn't meaningful after 1st level. So the main advantage of Whip Mastery is that you no longer provoke AoOs. But I can avoid most AoOs by careful placement (10' behind the meat shield, thank you very much). Against things without reach, I take a 5' step. Against things with reach, I tumble 10' away -- and since I'll have max ranks in Acrobatics and a +6 bonus for being a Daredevil, that's pretty close to auto-success. (And I get that nice +2 AC bonus, too.) If the party's fighting giants or something, I probably won't have the whip out anyway -- I'll be swinging a bastard sword or some such.

Put another way: I'm not sure it's worth paying two feats to close this admittedly annoying but highly situational hole in my defenses.

Doug M.

[redward]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

...you know, upon consideration, I'm less sure about this feat chain.

Unless you're a sneak-attacking rogue, the ability to consistently do damage with a whip is pretty irrelevant -- d3+1 just isn't meaningful after 1st level. So the main advantage of Whip Mastery is that you no longer provoke AoOs. But I can avoid most AoOs by careful placement (10' behind the meat shield, thank you very much). Against things without reach, I take a 5' step. Against things with reach, I tumble 10' away -- and since I'll have max ranks in Acrobatics and a +6 bonus for being a Daredevil, that's pretty close to auto-success. (And I get that nice +2 AC bonus, too.) If the party's fighting giants or something, I probably won't have the whip out anyway -- I'll be swinging a bastard sword or some such.

Put another way: I'm not sure it's worth paying two feats to close this admittedly annoying but highly situational hole in my defenses.

Doug M.

The main advantage of Whip Mastery is that it leads to Improved Whip Mastery, which lets you threaten an additional 5ft beyond your natural reach. Whips don't normally threaten.

With Improved Whip Mastery, you threaten a 10ft radius around you. If you have enough AoOs (through Combat Reflexes) no one can get close enough to hit you. If you have Greater Trip, anyone next to the mook you're tripping gets a free shot when he goes down (and another when he gets back up). And so do you.

If you want to do damage, that's where you'll need Weapon Finesse and an Agile Weapon enchant. Weapon Finesse and a +1 Agile Whip brings your 1d3+1 damage to 1d3+5. If you get to level 4 with Fighter, you can make it 1d3+7 with Weapon Specialization. You're always going to do less damage than with other weapons (average 2.5 less damage vs. a longsword, not counting crit %). But the d3 vs d8 or whatever quickly loses relevance as your damage bonus scales up.

You're basically sacrificing a couple points of damage for the ability to control the battlefield (and +4 to hit for you and your allies after you knock your target prone).

[Callarek]

On the Fighter levels, if you decide to stay with them, I would advise the Lore Warden archetype.

You give up the medium & heavy armor proficiencies, which you wouldn't use anyhow, for extra skill points and all Int-based skills being class skills (not a big deal for a Bard, I would think), but you also get a bonus feat at the second level, Combat Expertise, along with the normal second level fighter bonus feat. I think second level Lore Warden is where the first CMD/CMB bonus kicks in, as well, a +2 to both.

Bard 1 gives whip for free.
Human: Combat Reflexes
L1: Weapon Focus: Whip
Lore Warden 1: Weapon Finesse (which also counts for CMB when using a finesse weapon)
Lore Warden 2: Combat Expertise, Whip Mastery
L3: Improved Trip
Bard 2: No feat
Bard 3/L5: Piranha Strike or Serpent Lash
Bard 4: No feat
Bard 5/L7: Improved Whip Mastery

IMO, use the DD bonus for trip

BAB: +6
CMB: +6 BAB, +4 Dex, +2 LW, +2 DD-trip or keyword-disarm, giving a +16 trip (+2 feat), +14 disarm.

And then you add in the masterwork/magical enhancement from the whip, and if someone can give the standard +1 or +2 morale bonus from Bless or Prayer...

And only disarm them after you've tripped them, for an additonal +4 from them being prone...

Just make sure you are prepared for untrippable and/or undisarmable opponents, too. Animals, monks, oozes, swimmers, flyers, etc.

[Shalafi2412]

For some reason when I saw this thread all I could think of was the Man Without Fear.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Callarek wrote:

On the Fighter levels, if you decide to stay with them, I would advise the Lore Warden archetype.

You give up the medium & heavy armor proficiencies, which you wouldn't use anyhow, for extra skill points and all Int-based skills being class skills (not a big deal for a Bard, I would think), but you also get a bonus feat at the second level, Combat Expertise, along with the normal second level fighter bonus feat.

Huh. I had been very unimpressed with the Lore Warden, but it makes a lot more sense as a multiclass option with a light- or no-armor class: you're not going to wear heavy armor anyway, so you might as well get something for it.

Quote:

I think second level Lore Warden is where the first CMD/CMB bonus kicks in, as well, a +2 to both.

Third level, unfortunately.

Quote:

Bard 1 gives whip for free.

Human: Combat Reflexes
L1: Weapon Focus: Whip
Lore Warden 1: Weapon Finesse (which also counts for CMB when using a finesse weapon)

Weapon Finesse counts towards CMB? I did not know that. Is there a cite somewhere?

Quote:

Lore Warden 2: Combat Expertise, Whip Mastery
L3: Improved Trip
Bard 2: No feat
Bard 3/L5: Piranha Strike or Serpent Lash
Bard 4: No feat
Bard 5/L7: Improved Whip Mastery

IMO, use the DD bonus for trip

Yeah, that makes sense. I would think Serpent Lash rather than Piranha Strike -- do I want -2 attack / +4 damage, or do I want to disarm people with my whip?

Quote:

BAB: +6
CMB: +6 BAB, +4 Dex, +2 LW, +2 DD-trip or keyword-disarm, giving a +16 trip (+2 feat), +14 disarm.

BAB is +5, and I don't get the Lore Warden bonus unless I take a third level of LW. So +13 trip, +11 disarm. But that's before items or buffs.

As someone pointed out above, if I have a +1 Agile whip, I strike for d3+6, or more if my Dex is enhanced or buffed. Still no great shakes, but no longer completely pointless. Worth 8,000 gp at 7th level? Not sure -- I suspect I'd rather throw money at AC and stat enhancers, and those spiffy Boots of Elvenkind.

Doug M.

[Callarek]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Weapon Finesse counts towards CMB? I did not know that. Is there a cite somewhere?

Yes, it is in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook: Weapon Finesse

Oh, and I am running a pure Lore Warden, using a whip, and he hasn't had much issue with only having light armor proficiency, yet.