I've heard some arguments around here saying that even if you act on the surprise round, you can still be caught flat-footed if you go late in the initiative.
Is there any truth to this at all? My gut instinct is that that's not true, but given the amount of rules silliness in pathfinder, it doesn't sound completely out of the question.
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Until you act in the surprise round you are considered flat-footed (unless you have something that negates that).
After you have acted, though, you are no longer flat-footed.
So yes, you can be flat-footed during the surprise round until your initiative comes up. But by the time you get to the first regular round you have acted, and thus are not flat-footed.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
A surprise round isn't a regular turn. So it seems that you can act in the surprise round, and still be flat footed in the first regular round.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
This coupled with what Jeraa quoted earlier is the key to the RAW. You are flat-footed until you act in the "regular" initiative rounds. The surprise round is a round before the regular initiative that allows those that are not surprised to make preparations for combat, or quick strike before their opponents are aware. This is just one more case where the imaginings of what is happening in rounded combat and what the game says are happening differ, and in order to play by the RAW you must break from what "seems right."
Edit: I've had players at the table argue about the fact that the initiative roll is affected by your dex bonus, therefore the characters are "using" (though using is meant in the passive sense here) their dexterity to "be ready" for combat all the time. A decent argument, but the game says roll initiative, and you are flat-footed until you act in the regular initiative rounds.
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I read "regular turn" to mean when the GM says "Hey, it's your turn". I don't read that to mean when the GM says "Hey, it's your normal kind of turn that has a standard and move action".
I'm pretty sure that's what they intended. The only reason "regular" is even mentioned is so that those weird corner cases where someone has a way to take an "out of turn" action, then doing so is not their "regular turn" and does not stop them from being flat-footed.
Why do I read it this way?
Because it explicitly says that Flat-Footed is "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act". That's a direct quote. In fact, it's the first sentence. Then in parentheses it says that bit about "regular turn". If I try to accept BOTH sentences as valid, then the definition I just presented is the only valid choice. Or, in other words, if I take Jeraa's point of view, I MUST directly ignore the first sentence of the definition of Flat-Footed.
Since I don't like ignoring rules, or even sentences of rules, I really try to incorporate both ideas.
So, you're flat-footed at the start of combat until you act in your turn and if you can act out of turn, such actions won't end your state of being flat-footed.
That's the only parsing that fits both parts of the sentence.
Besides, nobody wants this:
GM: Surprise round. Fred, you're the only one not surprised so it's your turn.
Fred: Even though my initiative is 1?
GM: Yes, everyone else is surprised so you go.
Fred: I shoot the monster. Here's my damage.
GM: Great. Now it's round 1. The monster won initiative, so it will attack Fred. What's your AC?
Fred: 22.
GM: No way, it can't be that high. Is that your Flat-footed AC?
Fred: No, that's my normal AC because I'm not Flat=-footed.
GM: Yes you are. You haven't had a regular turn yet.
Fred: But, I've acted, haven't I? I shot the monster.
GM: Yep, but you're still Flat-footed.
Fred: But it says right here, first sentence, that Flat-footed happens at the start of combat before I act. I acted, so it is no longer the start of combat before I acted."
GM: Sure, but that wasn't a regular turn so it doesn't count.
Fred: Doesn't "Flat-footed" mean I am just not prepared for combat, not quite ready yet.
GM: Pretty much.
Fred: So how can I be not ready for combat AFTER I have already attacked in this combat?
GM: I have no idea, but you are.
Fred: So I shot the monster but I don't know I am in combat yet?
GM: Yep, that's it.
Fred: I shot the monster but I never acted?.
GM: Yep. Makes total sense to me.
Fred: OK, I quit. I'll go play GURPS...
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Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.A surprise round isn't a regular turn. So it seems that you can act in the surprise round, and still be flat footed in the first regular round.
I don't know anyone who would rule that actions taken on your initiative in the surprise round don't count as removing the flat-footed condition. In fact the core rulebook itself seems to contradict that interpretation; the description of the rogue talent "Surprise Attack" states that a rogue needs to have taken this ability in order to be able to treat opponents as flat-footed during the surprise round, even if they have already acted. If the rogue doesn't have that ability, then opponents are no longer considered flat footed after they have acted in the surprise round. And even if the rogue does have this ability, it only works during the surprise round; the flat-footed condition does not continue into the first regular round. Note, too, that it's only the rogue who gets to treat opponents who have acted as still being flat-footed.
I would interpret the section you highlighted as saying you are flat-footed until your initiative comes up, even if you somehow get to take an action before then (such as, say, being able to take an attack of opportunity because you have combat reflexes).
Just for clarification, I always ruled that those who acted in the surprise round were not flat-footed, because I also felt that was the spirit of the rules, but I also felt that was a house rule because I do read the "regular" in flat-footed, the same as the regular in surprise round. This is where someone always comes in and says this is why they put the rules in the hands of intelligent people so... Then I look around the forums, and at myself in the mirror and think, "really?"
question, can you do Immediate actions during the surprise round before you've acted?
question, can you do Immediate actions during the surprise round before you've acted?
It depends on what the immediate action is. I suppose the general answer is "Yes, some immediate actions allow you to use them before you have acted", but that answer by no means covers all immediate actions.
One that comes to mind is a barbarian ability (either a feat or rage power, can't remember) that allows you to rage as an immediate action upon taking damage.
I think people are trying to read too much into the two uses of the word "regular".A surprise round isn't a regular round. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't use a regular method for determining initiative order, with people taking their regular turn once their initiative comes up.
Yes, this is where the possible question comes in. If flat-footed language never used the words "regular turn," I don't think there would be any confusion at all, and as I said, the intent of the rules seems very clear, once you act, you are not flat-footed any longer. However, the words "regular turn" seem to indicate the idea of a turn wherein the character gets their full action economy (in a surprise round this is not the case). It would be much more clear if the parenthetical in flat-footed was stated in such a way as to just exclude those types of special actions that happen "outside" of the regular sequence of initiative. Again, in my experience most tables go with the once the character has acted they are no longer flat footed, but I believe that is the intent of the rules, regardless of the "regular" language.
Also, just for arguments sake, and I have actually seen this, someone could throw a punch before they had their feet fully set in a "battle stance." Sometimes in a hostile situation you just throw a punch from where you are, say, a bar stool just hypothetically. In that case, you have most definitely acted, but I would also say you are not "fully ready for combat."
That whole thing is absurd. It implies that both combatants in a fight could never ever ever possibly know they're in a fight unless they have a class feature that prevents it. Every single battle begins with a sucker punch. If there's 12 people combined on both sides of the fight, the 12th guy stands there watching as the other 11 run around swinging swords and blasting spells, unaware of the possibility that he's in a fight. If two parties cross paths, exchange words, clearly present hostile intentions, and begin to rumble... No one but the first guy in the initiative can possibly know a fight is about to happen. The last guy, despite being part of the initial confrontation and declaration that a battle royale is about happen, and despite watching the chaos in real time, is still in a stupor and clueless to the fact the guy who just told him he's going to stab him in the face with the knife he's about to pull out, then pulls out said knife, then moves 30' over to him and proceeds to face stab him.
C1: You wanna go bro?
C2: Yeah bro bring it!
C1: I'm bringin it bro!
C2: Do it then bro!
C1: See this fist?
C2: Yeah I see it, what?
C1: I'm gonna punch your face with it bro.
C2: Come at me bro!
C1: This fist. That side of your face. Not so much in that area, or over there, but right... there...
C2: Quit talkin and do it then bro!
C1: Ok bro, you asked for it bro, here I come. Right now. Over to you. With this fist right here. To hit you right there! You ready!?
C2: I'm ready!
C1: I ain't playin bro! I'm gonna do it right now, on 3... 1... 2... 2-1/2... 2-3/4...
C2: (braces for impact)
C1: 3! (punch)
C2: (still flat footed) WHY YOU HIT ME BRO!? I wasn't ready!
By the rules, that's how it goes. And it's ridiculous. I've always ran it, as has every DM I've played with, as if you are only flat-footed in a surpise round IF there even is a surprise round, unless there's a specific feature that causes it.
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Item 1:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
Note: turn, not round. The turn is when your character act, if you find a piece of text that define regular turn as part of a regular round, please show it.
Piece of text that speak of regular round have a limited pertinenncy.Item 2:
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
We have a rule that say that unaware combatant are flat footed. We can suppose that aware combatant aren't flat footed.
Combine it with a rule (item 1) that say that you are flat footed until your first regular turn. As "regular turn" is undefined we can reasonably suppose that it mean "the first turn in which you act without using special abilities".
So the first turn in which you act without using combat reflex or other ability beyond the result of your initiative check.
Item 1:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.Note: turn, not round. The turn is when your character act, if you find a piece of text that define regular turn as part of a regular round, please show it.
Piece of text that speak of regular round have a limited pertinenncy.Item 2:
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.We have a rule that say that unaware combatant are flat footed. We can suppose that aware combatant aren't flat footed.
Combine it with a rule (item 1) that say that you are flat footed until your first regular turn. As "regular turn" is undefined we can reasonably suppose that it mean "the first turn in which you act without using special abilities".
So the first turn in which you act without using combat reflex or other ability beyond the result of your initiative check.
This answer right here is as good as it gets.
It's the only way to read ALL the rules so that they make sense without deliberately ignoring some of them.
Item 1:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.Note: turn, not round. The turn is when your character act, if you find a piece of text that define regular turn as part of a regular round, please show it.
Piece of text that speak of regular round have a limited pertinenncy.Item 2:
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.We have a rule that say that unaware combatant are flat footed. We can suppose that aware combatant aren't flat footed.
Combine it with a rule (item 1) that say that you are flat footed until your first regular turn. As "regular turn" is undefined we can reasonably suppose that it mean "the first turn in which you act without using special abilities".
So the first turn in which you act without using combat reflex or other ability beyond the result of your initiative check.
That's some sweet rules-fu.
Q: "Why did you buy the Amulet of Non-detection and Ring of Invisibility again? You're a swashbuckler, don't you want folks to see you?"
A: "Not before I get to go, I don't! My AC sucks until I go, then!"
Item 1:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.Note: turn, not round. The turn is when your character act, if you find a piece of text that define regular turn as part of a regular round, please show it.
Piece of text that speak of regular round have a limited pertinenncy.Item 2:
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.We have a rule that say that unaware combatant are flat footed. We can suppose that aware combatant aren't flat footed.
Combine it with a rule (item 1) that say that you are flat footed until your first regular turn. As "regular turn" is undefined we can reasonably suppose that it mean "the first turn in which you act without using special abilities".
So the first turn in which you act without using combat reflex or other ability beyond the result of your initiative check.
As "regular turn" is undefined we can reasonably suppose that it mean "the first turn in which you act without using special abilities".
Or you can reasonably suppose that it means what it says in plain English: your next turn in the combat initiative sequence.
No need to add superfluous subordinate clauses to limit it unnecessarily.
I define a regular turn as having a full round action. Move standard and swift.
At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.
This doesn't say you can take a full round action, but you can take a standard, a move, and a swift. Does it count as a regular turn?
Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you may act in the surprise round as long as your ally would normally be able to act in the surprise round. If you would normally be denied the ability to act in the surprise round, your initiative is equal to your initiative roll or the roll of your ally –1, whichever is lower. If both you and your ally would be able to act in the surprise round without the aid of this feat, you may take both a standard and a move action (or a full-round action) during the surprise round.
This one says you can take standard and a move action OR a full round action. However, you don't get a swift action.
Does this one count as a regular turn?
I define a regular turn as having a full round action. Move standard and swift.
Ok ok ...
There's two Level 5 characters.
Both are 4 Bandit Rogue / 1 Sohei Monk.
They have both have the Ambush ability, Devoted Guardian ability, and the Lookout teamwork feat.
They both always act in the surprise round, and can take a standard and move action (or a full-round action) and a swift action.
Ok. Now do they lose flat-footed with their action in the surprise round?