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I have a couple queries on the spell Aqueous Orb:
You create a rolling sphere of churning water that can engulf those it strikes. The aqueous orb can move up to 30 feet per round, rolling over barriers less than 10 feet tall. It automatically quenches any non-magical fires and functions as dispel magic against magical fires as long as those fires are size Large or less.
Any creature in the path of the aqueous orb takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. A successful Reflex save negates this damage, but a Large or smaller creature that fails its save must make a second save or be engulfed by the aqueous orb and carried along with it. Engulfed creatures are immersed in water and must hold their breath unless capable of breathing water. They gain cover against attacks from outside the aqueous orb but are considered entangled by its churning currents, takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage at the beginning of their turn each round they remain trapped. Creatures within the orb may attempt a new Reflex save each round to escape into a random square adjacent to the aqueous orb. The orb may hold one Large creature, 4 Medium, or 16 Small or smaller creatures within it.
The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and churns in place. An aqueous orb stops if it moves outside the spell's range.
First, the description says they get a reflex save each round to escape; is that like Glitterdust, where they get a Will save each round not to be blind for free? Or is it more like escaping a grapple, where they actually have to take an action to break free? (They are Entangled, after all.)
Second, suppose I end the sphere in or next to someone's square using my move action. (If I end it in their square, they presumably have to make the saves; if they make them, I assume they're hiding in one of the corners of the 10-ft square.) Now I cast Hydraulic Push or Telekinesis to attempt a bull rush on them. If they fail, are they automatically sucked into the orb? What if I use the "violent thrust" version of Telekinesis?
Third, suppose I end the orb next to or extruding 5 feet over a Create Pit spell. Does it hover there until I can direct it all the way into the hole? At that point, what happens? You'd think the rules for falling onto a yielding surface apply... or does the orb just dissipate due to the force of the impact? Can I dismiss the orb as they fall (and if so, does that require an action)? What happens if they fall into a spiked, acid, or hungry pit?
Fourth, if I use a Persistent Rod, they have to make 2 saves for the first effect and 2 for the last (if they fail the first) every time, right?
Fifth, if I hoover up someone under the effect of Hideous Laughter, do they start drowning immediately? If I get a spellcaster, can they cast spells with somatic components?
Sixth, I can start the orb wherever I like within range, right? Including on top of some enemies?
for your help, guys - I started out with two questions, and then the list started growing as I thought about it...
Fifth, if I hoover up someone under the effect of Hideous Laughter, do they start drowning immediately? If I get a spellcaster, can they cast spells with somatic components?
By the way I love the logic on this one... sorry I don't have any useful input though.
1. it doesn't say it's an action, so it's free, the square you land in is random, if you made a real move action that probably wouldn't be the case.
2. actually when you move it on them, they are in the orb, and make reflex saves to get to an adjacent square, that's my interpretation (not 100% sure)
Same if you hydraulic push them into the square of the orb, if you push them through a case could be made that they aren't in the path of the orb, but the orb is in their path. This is houseruling however. This is houserule territory
3. hover would be my guess, it's magic, not physics. No falling damage, sphere has no HP.
not dismissible as it has no [D] after duration, else it would be standard action
4. Yes, 2 saves for everything, which is too strong in my opinion. But that whole metamagic is strong.
5. Raw, no. Try suffocate. Somatic shouldn't be a problem, vocal is however. But again the GM could judge otherwise because of flavour/description text.
6. Yes, you can create it above someone, but it should automaticly fall down, so it would just help if there is a flying character over another character.
These were difficult questions and I could be wrong on everything.
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Thanks, this confirms a couple of the things I was thinking. I did mean verbal, actually, not somatic; oops.
Would you say, then, that people in a sphere that's down a pit have no chance of escaping, since the sphere is 10 ft in diameter? Or could they maybe escape to a corner, or perhaps just get a breath of air with a successful save? It's entirely possible all of this is purely within DM-controlled territory.
I would judge it as reflex to save in a corner (if you're not large, because it's a sphere in 5ft cube). If you get engulfed by the orb, you can escape with a reflex save, but you can only go upwards, you can catch a breath, but immediatly fall down and are engulfed again unless you get an additional reflex save and a climb check to hold unto the wall. Last part is completly GM open and probably houseruling.
Some pit spells make climb more difficult, I would adjust the last reflex check.
On the other hand, the spell does say a random accessible square, thus it could just be that you normally get smashed to a wall, but that would mean that in 2D it would often mean the floor, and thus doesn't make much sense.
Thanks, this confirms a couple of the things I was thinking. I did mean verbal, actually, not somatic; oops.
Would you say, then, that people in a sphere that's down a pit have no chance of escaping, since the sphere is 10 ft in diameter? Or could they maybe escape to a corner, or perhaps just get a breath of air with a successful save? It's entirely possible all of this is purely within DM-controlled territory.
If there is no adjacent square, then they're boned. However, the square (actually the cube) above them is technically adjacent, so I'd give them a Climb check vs. the pit wall to escape to that cube. If you managed to seal that cube off, then they'd be really boned.
Incidentally, there's no reason to believe that being caught by the orb implies being unable to breathe. Their thrashing about trying to escape would more than likely end up with their head out of the orb at least occasionally. Since RAW is silent on the subject of drowning, I'd not count on it in usual situations.
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Actually, it does say: "Engulfed creatures are immersed in water and must hold their breath unless capable of breathing water." I assume you mean RAW for the spell, because there are rules on drowning:
Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1.
When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.
Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she immediately drops to –1 (or loses 1 additional hit point, if her total is below –1). On the following round, she drowns.
It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.
Granted, twice your Constitution score is usually at least 24 rounds, which is much longer than the duration of the spell - a DM might rule something different since they're being thrashed around by the water.
Obviously late, but my chaotic perspective on the original questions (copied responses are obvious signs of genius):
First, the description says they get a reflex save each round to escape; is that like Glitterdust, where they get a Will save each round not to be blind for free? Or is it more like escaping a grapple, where they actually have to take an action to break free? (They are Entangled, after all.)
It’s more like an every-round Fireball, except a save equals no damage. Making a save vs a spell effect is a free action.
Second, suppose I end the sphere in or next to someone's square using my move action. (If I end it in their square, they presumably have to make the saves; if they make them, I assume they're hiding in one of the corners of the 10-ft square.) Now I cast Hydraulic Push or Telekinesis to attempt a bull rush on them. If they fail, are they automatically sucked into the orb? What if I use the "violent thrust" version of Telekinesis?
VERY wishy-woshy, and I’d say the DM is the predominant factor in all circumstances. If I were your DM, it would of course depend on the situation/positioning. Assuming optimal conditions, and you telekinetically pushing them into the middle, I’d follow the rules for the spell (Telekinesis) first (will save, right?), then demand a reflex save of some sort. Given the ambiguous nature, I’d skip the first Refl save IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE and go straight to the sec. save vs Engulf—personal logic: you’re being thrust directly into the center of this ball of churning water, as opposed to being battered along the way to get there.
Third, suppose I end the orb next to or extruding 5 feet over a Create Pit spell. Does it hover there until I can direct it all the way into the hole? At that point, what happens? You'd think the rules for falling onto a yielding surface apply... or does the orb just dissipate due to the force of the impact? Can I dismiss the orb as they fall (and if so, does that require an action)? What happens if they fall into a spiked, acid, or hungry pit?
Create Pit specifically demands reaction only from Creatures:
I don’t know what impact you’re talking about, but guess you mean to engulf people and carry them over to the pit. If that’s the case, the components for Aqueous Orb does not specify that it can be dismissed:
“Components V, S, M”
If they fall into a spiked/whatever trap, then that has to do with the specific trap (be it spiked, poisoned, etc). Specifics at that point.
Fourth, if I use a Persistent Rod, they have to make 2 saves for the first effect and 2 for the last (if they fail the first) every time, right?
If they failed every save as it came, they’d make two saves total: first effect, second effect. If they succeeded at the first save, they’d have to roll a second time against the FIRST effect. IF they failed this, they’d have to roll against the second effect. If THIS roll failed, they’d have to roll a SECOND time against the second effect.
Quick synopsis: if they fail the saves for both the first and second effect, nothing changes.
Fifth, if I hoover up someone under the effect of Hideous Laughter, do they start drowning immediately? If I get a spellcaster, can they cast spells with somatic components?
EXTREMELY solid logic around this: “the creature continues laughing for the entire duration” if they fail the Hideous Laughter save. If someone’s laughing, their breathing, and breathing water is bad for non-fish-folk. As a DM, I’d say they are automatically rolling against being engulfed. If that fails . . . I dunno. Probably Constitution check vs the beginning stages of drowning. Laughing under water is bad, yo. Counter-point: stuff ceases to be funny when one is drowning. Most enchantments stop when it comes to damaging one’s self with actions . . . total DM call.
Fantastic question, btw.
Sixth, I can start the orb wherever I like within range, right? Including on top of some enemies?
Totally. It would behoove you to do so. Kinda like Wall of Fire. “Convenient placement = Wizard/Cleric Cannon Fodder”
Actually, it does say: "Engulfed creatures are immersed in water and must hold their breath unless capable of breathing water."
Whoops, you're right. Sucks to be them.
For what it's worth guys, you can't summon Aqueous Orb in the air, as it needs to follow the rules of the Summoning School and be summoned in an environment suitable for it (i.e.: on the ground).
I was sad to discover this, as it meant my dream for using the Orb against flyers (falling damage + water damage!) was over.
They are still very fun in combo with Create Pits though!
I hate to re-necro this thread, but is this true? I couldn't find any related text, and Aqueous Orb is a "Creation" spell, not summoning.
Edit: while we're at it, what happens if I cast this spell underwater??
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"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
this is in the header section - not specific to any sub-school.
Underwater? I would rule no change.
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
this is in the header section - not specific to any sub-school.
I decided to avoid a debate with my GM last night and did not try to conjure it on the back of an enemy dragon mount.
Hey, it was a surface supporting the rider.