As long as your GMs dial up the monsters, nope.
For instance, GMs can just add the "advanced" template to everything you meet, to compensate.
For those truly concerned about continuing to challenge the players, this seems like a fairly good solution. Most players likely won't even know the difference.
Another good alternative is to change nothing and let your players feel powerful.
As long as your GMs dial up the monsters, nope.
For instance, GMs can just add the "advanced" template to everything you meet, to compensate.
For those truly concerned about continuing to challenge the players, this seems like a fairly good solution. Most players likely won't even know the difference.
Another good alternative is to change nothing and let your players feel powerful.
Good solution? There isn't a problem to "solve" if you just stick to 15pt as the designers intended you to!
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I think this thread is quickly dissolving into personal preferences. The OP's question was about whether or not a 25pt buy would break Paizo's APs and modules. I think most everyone on the boards would agree that it does affect the CL of encounters and may require some re-working to challenge your players.
There are a couple of counterpoints, in that a 25pt buy might make your characters feel really powerful and they have a great time smashing the AP/module. Alternatively you could have 15 pt buy characters that really really know how to play them well and they will also smash the AP. So the complete answer is mostly, depends on your group.
Well said redcelt32. I regret my choice of words.
As long as your GMs dial up the monsters, nope.
For instance, GMs can just add the "advanced" template to everything you meet, to compensate.
You don't even have to do this.
Take a new player who knows nothing about game tactics or RPGs and give him a stat array that equals 48 points. Take a veteran player who knows everything and give her 10 points. Dollars to doughnuts, unless she gives him instructions on what to do (i.e. plays his character for him), it's the veteran that will "break" things, not the newbie.
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So it looks like I will have 5 players. Would you recommend using a 15 point or 20 point buy to run Carrion Crown?
On a side note, I have a bit of a problem with "dump" stats unless a player has a real good concept reason for it. To me, the point of this game is you're a hero, and (unless you have a good concept for it) being below average in one or more stats isn't very heroic. I want to avoid people dumping stats just to min-max. If you have a real cool idea for a certain low stat, that's one thing. I thought giving more points would help prevent it, but maybe I should, as someone suggested, just not allow dump stats without a good reason. And "because I wanna have a 16 in this other stat" isn't a good reason. ;)
I'm running a game with a 25 point buy at the moment and the only thing I wish I had done differently was ban dumping stats below 10 for the extra points. On the whole though it has worked fine - though possibly as there are only four players, I can't speak for what it would be like with six.
Lex Starwalker: As for your 5 character Carrior Crown. How experienced are your players? If some of them are newish to the system I'd recommend the higher buy, if they are mostly veterans with 3.5-like gaming then the 15 pointer may be fine.
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The best ways I have found to stop min/max stat dumping is to require that no one have less than a 10 or 9 whichever in any stat.
Or you can use a stat array, like the elite stat array (15,14,13,12,10,8). Our group sometimes uses the 17,15,14,13,12,10 or 16,14,14,13,12,10 arrays. Less individual, but better balanced that a point buy usually.
I've run and been in games ranging from 15 point to 30 point.
The only significant that point buy has on the game is that the higher the point buy, the more viable MAD characters become.
At 15 you see a lot of basic barbarians, fighters and wizards.
At 30 you see more monks and paladins (and sometimes even strange multiclassing)
15 point will make your group feel very "classic" in it's configuration. You won't seem many characters that are mechanically complex, which is awesome for stuff like a quick pick-up dungeon crawl. If that's what you're going for, awesome.
If you want more complex mechanical builds, up the point buy.
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I agree that differences in point buy are pretty overblown. If you sat me down at a table and had me watch a game, I don't think there's any amount of observation that would let me figure out what point buy the group was using unless I actually checked someone's sheet. I wouldn't say it makes no difference, but its effect on party power is a pretty small jostle compared to things like party synergy, player skill and experience, optimization level, treasure quality, class/build power, splat access, etc. If I had to throw out a number, I'd say that an extra five points in a point buy is worth a bit under +1 CR, if even that - in other words, I wouldn't use a 25 pt buy if it's already the case that your players tend to not struggle very much, but it won't break the game. It can't break the game.
A related claim that drives me crazy is the notion that higher point buys make games more cinematic/epic/gonzo/crazy/heroic/high/etc., and lower point buys make games more brutal/gritty/grim/desparate/salty/low/etc. Point buy is all but completely unrelated to game tone.
I agree that differences in point buy are pretty overblown. If you sat me down at a table and had me watch a game, I don't think there's any amount of observation that would let me figure out what point buy the group was using unless I actually checked someone's sheet. I wouldn't say it makes no difference, but its effect on party power is a pretty small jostle compared to things like party synergy, player skill and experience, optimization level, treasure quality, class/build power, splat access, etc. If I had to throw out a number, I'd say that an extra five points in a point buy is worth a bit under +1 CR, if even that - in other words, I wouldn't use a 25 pt buy if it's already the case that your players tend to not struggle very much, but it won't break the game. It can't break the game.
A related claim that drives me crazy is the notion that higher point buys make games more cinematic/epic/gonzo/crazy/heroic/high/etc., and lower point buys make games more brutal/gritty/grim/desparate/salty/low/etc. Point buy is all but completely unrelated to game tone.
Joyd speaks with the brainy smarts
Never used point by and probably never will, We roll, using our House rule system called the Matrix..., Most likely your character will have the stats it needs to be what you want with decent supporting stats as well. The Convention produces and average of +3 across the characters stat block, Most players sport an 18 and a cpl of 15's or 16's to compensate I add +2 to the Con and +2 to the Prime Req of each opponent. Its not a vast amount of bookkeeping and it produces a sufficient challenge to my player without major modification.
The Group I play in has 5 players and well and that is somewhat harder to compensate for than good stats. I've found that with Minion fights often simple adding another CR of opponents is the easiest thing. With Bosses this has rto be handled carefully as a Spellcasting Level can alter the situation more than a simple HD or minion... I take Bosses on a case by case by rarely find the entire counter needs to be adjusted drastically
Good solution? There isn't a problem to "solve" if you just stick to 15pt as the designers intended you to!As long as your GMs dial up the monsters, nope.
For instance, GMs can just add the "advanced" template to everything you meet, to compensate.
For those truly concerned about continuing to challenge the players, this seems like a fairly good solution. Most players likely won't even know the difference.
Another good alternative is to change nothing and let your players feel powerful.
One of the funnest games I've ever played was a friend's campaign called "Mud Pit." We all started at level Negative Three, and the first guy to have a metal weapon was a total badass.
The "designers" picked a baseline and keyed the monster CRs to that baseline. They didn't "intend" anything, other than to say the CRs should about work for a particular level/loot/chargen range. If your GM knows how to properly scale challenges, then CRs are meaningless and it doesn't matter what your point buy is. Ravingdork is right as usual - if your players like feeling powerful and killing things they feel are more powerful, then give them more powerful things to kill and it all works out.
I've run and been in games ranging from 15 point to 30 point.
The only significant that point buy has on the game is that the higher the point buy, the more viable MAD characters become.
At 15 you see a lot of basic barbarians, fighters and wizards.
At 30 you see more monks and paladins (and sometimes even strange multiclassing)
15 point will make your group feel very "classic" in it's configuration. You won't seem many characters that are mechanically complex, which is awesome for stuff like a quick pick-up dungeon crawl. If that's what you're going for, awesome.
If you want more complex mechanical builds, up the point buy.
^^This^^ is a very valuable observation. I totally agree.
I agree that differences in point buy are pretty overblown. If you sat me down at a table and had me watch a game, I don't think there's any amount of observation that would let me figure out what point buy the group was using unless I actually checked someone's sheet.
Doomed Hero gives you your insight. If I walk into someone's living room, and there's two monks and a paladin in the party, they're on a 20 or 25 point buy.
No.
I'm running jade regent right now with 3 characters using a 40 point buy (no stat below 10 after racial). we finished the first book last night and its running just fine. every character has been dropped into the negatives multiple times, had to retreat often, and had a blast. as long as no ones trying for a power build the points are kinda irrelevant.
40 point buy can break the game if used by minmaxers. RP-focused players who, say, give their fighters a 15 INT because they want lots of skill ranks are less of a problem.
that how my players do it. no real dump stats, a dex based fighter. all sub-optimal builds made very useable by a high point game ... I've noticed with 15 point builds if your a fighter you take 2hd wep. and power attack, your a rogue you take high dex and a scimitar and dancing dervish. you get pigeon holed into specific builds without alot of room for customization.
I agree that your players' skill should have some impact on what point buy you choose to give them. Our group uses 25 point buys as a handicap for some of our less experienced players. That said, a 20 point buy sounds like a good place to start with a group to gauge how they might work with a higher number.
As a personal rule, I don't dump stats. I never have more than one score below a 10 if I can avoid it and make my build work. Having a 25 point buy just helps me not have a puny/clumsy/sickly/stupid/gullible/socially awkward character.
Disallow stat dumps and you shouldn't have a problem. If they tear through things too quickly, just adjust enemies' hp towards max instead of average. Those are probably the easiest things to do if you think you'll have trouble with 5 players and a 25 point buy.