BBEG: Is it too tough?


Advice

Scarab Sages

So, I'm notorious for making really nasty BBEGs for my group to fight.

Anyways, long story short, the primary foe of an adventure I'm planning (spanning level 4 to level 7, 5 characters) will be a disgruntled, malicious Tojanida who has accidentally opened a rift to the Abyss in an attempt to impress a gorgeous Tiefling priestess of Asmodeus, and has become tainted by the demonic forces he has unwittingly released.

Does a Half-Fiend Tojanida with 7 levels of Sorcerer (Abyssal Bloodline) [CR 14] seem like too much for a party of 5 APL 7?

Now, let me explain my rationale behind this:

Resistances don't stack, so he'll be stuck with the best resistances granted (aka, Half-Fiend), which negates several either inherent or class-gained abilities. His spellcasting won't be terribly effective (with a Charisma of 14 including a HD bump), but he will have access to quite a few handy spells, with the likely inclusion of Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Acid Arrow, and Lightning Bolt. His BAB will be low for a CR 14 (+9), but he'll still be fairly accurate, and with a 20 Strength (likely 24 with Bull's Strength), he should be putting out respectable damage to the group of level 7s. Throw in some monster summoning, and I'm thinking it should be a really, REALLY tough (though beatable) fight.

What do you guys think?

*Added notes: This will be the only encounter of the day, so NOVA is a guarantee, and the group will have a SUPER dedicated healer (Life Oracle).


Hmmm under RAW his CR would be that but as long as he has low key score (charisma in this case) I would still count those sorceror levels as 1CR per 2 levels. That would bring him down to a rough CR of 11 which while 4 levels higher is technically no harder than most BBEG fights, dragons for example.

He'll be a fairly tough fight for them but it's entirely possible for a party of five 7th level PCs to bring him down. They'll almost definitely be able to penetrate his DR with magic weapons. Spell resistance of 16 will likely be annoying to any casters but again can be beaten.

In short I'd say he'll be ok for the party. If needs be put him in a relatively small enclosed space for the encounter so he can't fly around flinging spells with impunity.


A question: What are their levels? If ranging from 4 to 7, I can't see how APL is 7?

I think it could become quite difficult, of course depending on how you play it.

Isn't spell resistance calculated as the total CR of the monster? In that case it got CR 25, which seems high at level 7. Combined with resistances it is going make the caster pretty useless unless they've got buffs or non-targeted control spells.

While it only got a slow fly speed, flying can be a challenge around lvl 7, where there aren't necessarily options for making melee characters flying. If you chose to have it flying outside melee range, those characters might have a hard time contributing as well, if they haven't got a magical ranged backup weapon (And I know a lot of people that don't bring those).

Whether or not there is water present will also affect the difficulty of the encounter.

I think you should be cautious about this BBEG. If you normally play monsters to the full of their abilities, I'd suggest you scale it down to avoid a TPK.

But then again, party composition makes a world of difference. A buffed-up lvl 7 paladin might tear it apart in a round or two...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
HaraldKlak wrote:

A question: What are their levels? If ranging from 4 to 7, I can't see how APL is 7?

I think it could become quite difficult, of course depending on how you play it.

Isn't spell resistance calculated as the total CR of the monster? In that case it got CR 25, which seems high at level 7. Combined with resistances it is going make the caster pretty useless unless they've got buffs or non-targeted control spells.

While it only got a slow fly speed, flying can be a challenge around lvl 7, where there aren't necessarily options for making melee characters flying. If you chose to have it flying outside melee range, those characters might have a hard time contributing as well, if they haven't got a magical ranged backup weapon (And I know a lot of people that don't bring those).

Whether or not there is water present will also affect the difficulty of the encounter.

I think you should be cautious about this BBEG. If you normally play monsters to the full of their abilities, I'd suggest you scale it down to avoid a TPK.

But then again, party composition makes a world of difference. A buffed-up lvl 7 paladin might tear it apart in a round or two...

I read it as the campaign will be running from 4-7, so at the end they will all be seventh level.

For the OP - if you look after the party's character sheets (which is always wise), run a mock combat between them and the monster. That's probably the best way to think through whether they are going to be able to beat this thing.

Scarab Sages

The mock combat is a good idea, I'll have to keep that in mind. The final encounter will take place entirely underwater, so the fly speed is irrelevant, though it IS the Tojanida's preferred environment.

The group will consist of 5 level 7 characters at the time of the final fight, sorry if I was confusing in that regard.

And no, Spell Resistance is not added to CR.


Davor wrote:

The mock combat is a good idea, I'll have to keep that in mind. The final encounter will take place entirely underwater, so the fly speed is irrelevant, though it IS the Tojanida's preferred environment.

The group will consist of 5 level 7 characters at the time of the final fight, sorry if I was confusing in that regard.

And no, Spell Resistance is not added to CR.

Actually having looked properly at the Half-Fiend template spell resistance IS 11 plus CR. Your spellcasters are going to have a very bad time.

Underwater combat will severely hamper any unprepared party as well. It's definitely going to be a tough fight. Maybe too tough. The Tojanida has very few weaknesses due to the template and is fighting in optimal conditions, whereas the PCs will have to use plenty of resources to invest in items or spells just so they can fight relatively normally.

Personally I think you should go a little easier on the PCs. This could well be a TPK in the making.

Liberty's Edge

"and SR equal to creature's CR + 11 (maximum 35)."

The spell resistance would be a bit much if built strictly according to the template (CR13-14 with SR 24-25 is too much at level 7). I am seeing this is a CR 13 at least which is too much. Even if you give it no gear it still has higher AC, BAB, and saves along with spell-like abilities and sorcerer spells. I would suggest only giving 3 class levels, but go with something with higher BAB such as anti-paladin or oracle.

EDIT: base CR 5 + 2 from template + 1 for favorable terrain + 2 from class levels. If your party does a lot of dpr give max hp.

Scarab Sages

Ah. I had missed the part about spell resistance. All things considered, this would probably be a little too tough. Thanks.

Also, CR is added to Spell Resistance, not vice-versa, which is where the confusion came in.


Davor wrote:

Ah. I had missed the part about spell resistance. All things considered, this would probably be a little too tough. Thanks.

Also, CR is added to Spell Resistance, not vice-versa, which is where the confusion came in.

I can see that I've where the source of this confusion, when I wrote CR 25 where i meant SR 25 :-)

A solution to make the encounter more managable is to lower the amount of class levels, of course. Other than that, it might be a solution to give him the fiendish template instead of half-fiend.

Since the encounter takes place in water, I expect they have opportunity to prepare. Without freedom of movement or swim speed, they are going to be toast. Remember that ranged combat gets -2 to hit per 5 ft of water, so any ranged characters is going to be gimped in this encounter.

I'd suggest giving your BBEG some minions. Some fiendish aquatic animals would be perfect in this encounter.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / BBEG: Is it too tough? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.