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I do not believe it is evil.
I like my steak medium rare. Am I evil for eating steak that has a little blood in it?
Drinking blood might be considered an odious personal habit by some, but I do not believe it is evil. That being said, some methods for obtaining blood most certainly are evil.
Evil is culturally relative. Not all agree on which acts are "evil", which culture is right?the culture in which the campaign is predominantly set. If it's a psuedo-European game, the "Europeans" would be right. In an "Aztec" game, the Aztecs would be right.
Wünderbar. Now, in this hypothetical psuedo-european game, do all the kingdoms agree about what is or isn't moral? Do the dwarves, elves, halflings, etc have the same list of what's evil? Any moral dissonance between the Azatas and Archons? Which group gets to decide what's evil?
I really -really- want some black pudding/blood sausage/kiszhka right now.
I like how most people here have actually all but forgotten that his blood-drinking ability is mechanically a function of his class, rather than of his race as a Damphir! Mechanically, Damphirs don't even need to drink blood!
I did not forget that and I think it makes what he does even worse.
He is not fighting what he is, he embraces it and drinks blood like his undead kin even if he doesn't have to.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interesting discussion.
I doubt that these peoble were/are evil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571
Also, I don't think that a culture in which warriors eat the hearts/drink the blood/.. of a slain/conquered enemy has to be an evil one.
I like how most people here have actually all but forgotten that his blood-drinking ability is mechanically a function of his class, rather than of his race as a Damphir! Mechanically, Damphirs don't even need to drink blood!I did not forget that and I think it makes what he does even worse.
He is not fighting what he is, he embraces it and drinks blood like his undead kin even if he doesn't have to.
If I may, this statement pre-supposes that drinking blood is under any circumstance abhorrent to begin with. I believe the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not it is, and you can't pre-suppose a conclusion to the very subject-matter of a discussion.
Interesting discussion.
I doubt that these peoble were/are evil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571Also, I don't think that a culture in which warriors eat the hearts/drink the blood/.. of a slain/conquered enemy has to be an evil one.
In fairness, I don't think my player's situation is quite analogous to this, although it does illustrate how drinking blood, or even cannibalism, need not necessarily be an evil act in and of itself.
In fairness, I don't think my player's situation is quite analogous to this, although it does illustrate how drinking blood, or even cannibalism, need not necessarily be an evil act in and of itself.
And that is all I wanted to show with the example.
IF the act of eating another sentient creature (or drinking its blood or...) is evil depends on circumstances, culture, and so on.
I easily can imagine a chaotic good follower of Gorum doing such things because of getting the strength of a respected enemy and so on.
I like how most people here have actually all but forgotten that his blood-drinking ability is mechanically a function of his class, rather than of his race as a Damphir! Mechanically, Damphirs don't even need to drink blood!I did not forget that and I think it makes what he does even worse.
He is not fighting what he is, he embraces it and drinks blood like his undead kin even if he doesn't have to.
If I may, this statement pre-supposes that drinking blood is under any circumstance abhorrent to begin with. I believe the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not it is, and you can't pre-suppose a conclusion to the very subject-matter of a discussion.
I pre-suppose that being a vampire is evil and thus behaving like one when you have a choice is evil, too.
This PC is a half vampire that has the luck that he doesn't need to feed on blood to survive. And yet he chooses to do so mecause it heals him and makes him stronger.
And he has to do it in some gruesome way because the ability he uses forces him to.
He has to drink that blood within one minute of death.
So ha can't do some rites to sanctify the corpse, to apolagize by his victim or a lot of other things that have been said he could to.
No, he has to literary jump onto the falling foe to get at his blood while his heart is just stopping.
One minute is not much time considering you have just been in a life and death situation, have to get your bearings and take in your surroundings to be sure that no enemy is still alife and to be sure no comrade is in dire need of your help.
With the normal rules for dying it could well be that the enemy is still alife or could still be stabilized when the paladin feeds on his blood.
@blackbloodtroll, yes, yes you are
not for eating stuff of course, but for that previous fluid innuendo when I was eating yoghurt. One should wash your mind with soap, no offense.
But seriously if we talk about what the PF system says, the ghoul and cook people argument should be convincing.
If we're talking about real-life logic and morals, then I agree with you all, yes it's logical to allow people to drink blood that nobody needs, yes it's amoral to do so and I wouldn't feel comfortable around such people.
So you are are right, all of you, at the same time.
As a non-good sorceror, I wouldn't have a problem with the ability.
However, in my opinion, the paladins code overrules all.
Erastil (the character's deity) is the LG god of family, farming, hunting and trade.
Does drinking the blood of a fallen (sentient) foe fit into this? I think not and, as such, the character would lose his paladinhood.
Consider: the paladin comes to the aid of a village that is under attack from evil goblins. He kills them and then starts to drink their blood. How do the villagers react? Not too well, I'm sure. And this is the significant factor, as far as I'm concerned. (It depends on the culture of the area, of course.)
ohhh, nice little doggy, and charming little kitty?
no, that doesn't bother me, I wouldn't eat them though, but I have a problem eating cockroaches too, and insects are quite likely to be the food of the future.
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I pre-suppose that being a vampire is evil and thus behaving like one when you have a choice is evil, too.
So...wearing a cape is Evil now? Or sleeping in a box? Or going to fancy parties?
It's the whole 'killing people' thing that makes vampires evil. Doing other stuff they happen to do might get you weird looks, but it isn't morally wrong.
This PC is a half vampire that has the luck that he doesn't need to feed on blood to survive. And yet he chooses to do so mecause it heals him and makes him stronger.
And?
I mean, all this presupposes drinking blood is evil. It's both pointless and circular. Your real reason (as you've stated) is that drinking blood is personally disturbing to you...but that's a really shaky moral foundation there.
And this doesn't do a thing to shore it up.
And he has to do it in some gruesome way because the ability he uses forces him to.
He has to drink that blood within one minute of death.
A minute's actually a pretty long time. Sit down, start counting seconds. It's a while, really.
So ha can't do some rites to sanctify the corpse, to apolagize by his victim or a lot of other things that have been said he could to.
Sure he can. Your standard 'prayer for the prey' type thing is a medium-short sentence, maybe combined with something like crossing the corpse's arms on it's chest and/or closing it's eyes.
No, he has to literary jump onto the falling foe to get at his blood while his heart is just stopping.
No. He doesn't. A minute's a lot longer than that.
One minute is not much time considering you have just been in a life and death situation, have to get your bearings and take in your surroundings to be sure that no enemy is still alife and to be sure no comrade is in dire need of your help.
All that assessment can usually be done in a few seconds: "Anyone need a Lay On Hands in the next minute?" followed by a chorus of "Nope." If anyone does, he does that first, then has a snack if there's still time.
If a Paladin actually failed to help a comrade because he's too busy helping himself, that would indeed be an Evil act...but no more so than failing to help them because he was looting the bodies. The blood drinking is entirely irrelevant as to why that's bad.
With the normal rules for dying it could well be that the enemy is still alife or could still be stabilized when the paladin feeds on his blood.
And again, nobody is saying that people can be killed for their blood (which is what this is) and not have that be Evil. But nothing requires the character in question to do this. Not doing so makes the ability slightly less effective...but not to any meaningful degree.
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As a non-good sorceror, I wouldn't have a problem with the ability.
However, in my opinion, the paladins code overrules all.
Where? I mean, the Paladin code is pretty clearly defined, and I don't see anything on this subject there.
Erastil (the character's deity) is the LG god of family, farming, hunting and trade.
Does drinking the blood of a fallen (sentient) foe fit into this? I think not and, as such, the character would lose his paladinhood.
What if his home village practiced ritual cannibalism? Erastil's all about honoring the traditions of your community.
And even if it doesn't, we actually have Erastil's Paladin code. This isn't on the list of activities he considers unacceptable.
Consider: the paladin comes to the aid of a village that is under attack from evil goblins. He kills them and then starts to drink their blood. How do the villagers react? Not too well, I'm sure. And this is the significant factor, as far as I'm concerned. (It depends on the culture of the area, of course.)
So all Half-Orcs are now Evil in Ustalav? Or not allowed to be Paladins there? Because the mere presence of a Half-Orc there will arouse the same kind of bad reaction.
Basing whether something is Evil or will cause a Paladin to fall based on local attitudes in a particular area is a really bad way tto orchestrate morality in a world where such things are metaphysical absolutes.
Indeed, one of the actual part of Erastil's Code for his Paladin's is:
"I keep to the old ways, the true ways. I am not seduced by the lure of money or power. I remember that true honor comes from within, not from the accolades of others."
I suspect that rather flies in the face of any idea that he'd be against this just on the basis of appearances...
The fact is in doing this the Dhampir still has the choice to eat as a normal human, he does not live on just blood. He also has the choice to feed off of appropriate size animals. So he had to make a decision to feed of a sentient being, this pushes the line in my opinion.
It would be a different story if the Dhampir had no choice but to feed off of blood to sustain himself. This is not the case with the Sanguine Bloodline. He would be pushing a very fine line in my games.
Again if he did this to only appropriate sized animal I'd have no problem.
Again if he did this to only appropriate sized animal I'd have no problem.
Neither would I.
To all those saying: he does not "have to". Do humans "have to" eat cow? many vegans will tell you: nope. Are all medium-rare-steak lovers evil? (I like my steak rare... ;-p )
Ok, you some people say it's evil to drink sentient's blood in todays cultures... well what does make this evil is KILLING a sentient.
In most fantasy settings you go kill quite a lot of humanoids because of some reason/quest/... apparently killing humanoids is "acceptable" there, or not?
Unless you always make prisoners and never ever kill a single sentient in your D&D games? (even orcs/goblins/trolls/...)
If killing a sentient is ok (with a good reason), how is it morally different to eat it's meat if it's ok to kill a cow for food and then eat it's meat?
(actually it'd be fun to do a statistic about which people are anti-drinking and vegan and which are pro-drinking and rare-medium-steak-lovers and how many are in between ^^)
Some of you apply morals of this world to a fantasy setting...
moral codes hail from religious codes of right and wrong
you can apply those to a fantasy setting, but anybody else is free to not do so. Personally I'd look at the Paladin's god and see what that god would say about this, WITHOUT being clouded by modern religious beliefs.
If a human character had a strong stomac, would human peasants mind him drinking the blood of a troll he slew? I don't think so, they might wonder how he can stomac drinking it (icky?), but that's it.
Would those same peasants feel otherwise if that human character were drinking blood of a dwarf/elf/orc? I guess it depends.
Would those same peasants feel different if it were a human drinking from a human? Hell, yes.
The question you'd have to ask yourself is: WHY would humans consider drinking from another human evil... and THAT answer (whichever that might be) will set the standard for YOUR D&D gaming table.
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Now a dhampir is partially vampire, right? vampires are portray'd to be the last link of the food chain... Many movies describe how vampires see humans as food, cattle, etc. And most humans seem to react to vampires, like mice would react to a cat.
My bigger question to that dhampir paladin would be: how will human peasants react when they find out that paladin is a half-vampire? ;-)
I think a problem that has arisen is that people are at different points addressing essentially 2 different questions:
1. Is it always or at any time wrong for a paladin to drink the blood of sentient beings?
2. Is it always or at any time wrong for a paladin to drink the blood of animals or other non-sentient beings?
Hopefully this helps to clarify some positions.
I'd reckon that in both cases, the answer is that it depends on the situation, although the range of situations in which it would be acceptable to drink the blood of non-sentient beings would be far, FAR broader.
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I think a problem that has arisen is that people are at different points addressing essentially 2 different questions:
1. Is it always or at any time wrong for a paladin to drink the blood of sentient beings?
2. Is it always or at any time wrong for a paladin to drink the blood of animals or other non-sentient beings?
Hopefully this helps to clarify some positions.
I'd reckon that in both cases, the answer is that it depends on the situation, although the range of situations in which it would be acceptable to drink the blood of non-sentient beings would be far, FAR broader.
My positions:
1. Acceptable, provided they are already dead (for whatever reason) and doing so is not unnecessarily cruel to watching people who cared for the deceased. Possibly not okay for a Paladin specificaly to do to the remains of honored comrades.
2. Always acceptable. As long as you don't waste the meat, anyhow. Killing a boar or cow specifically to do this is totally fine (as killing a human would definitively not be).
Ok, you have all convinced me to stop drinking people's blood straight from their still-warm corpses... from now on, only with it mixed with vodka, a little tabasco, celery salt and pepper, over ice with a celery stick. Yums.
Yuck, you are disgusting! How on earth can you make yourself eat that celery stick...!?
It's certainly an inherently disgusting act.
As far as mechanically being evil I would cite Blood Transcription immediately (2nd level wizard spell.)
Here it is an evil type spell, suggesting that the developers at least seem to believe that drinking blood is evil.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Here's my take on the issue:
Drinking blood is not inherently evil. The REASON you do it, may make the action evil.
For example, if you drink blood because you need to in order to survive, it is not an evil act. After all, is a mosquito evil because it drinks blood?. I know that vampires also drink blood to survive, but I would argue that the fact they drink blood is not the reason they are evil. There are quite a few other habits they have (Domination, for one) that make them evil.
However, if you drink blood for any of these reasons, it would most likely be an evil act:
- Sheer enjoyment.
- You like the taste.
- You revel in the suffering of your victims.
- You do it to strike fear into the hearts of the allies/family of the person whose blood you are drinking.
- You drink blood to summon an evil outsider.
I think that treating dead creatures with respect is part of being good, this would disqualify most cultures from drinking the blood of the fallen, a creature being more or less sentient should probably be taken into account as well as the race, if it is an awakened animal it is probably less 'wrong' than eating/drinking another humanoid.
I'd also say that relative necessity should be factored in if you are near dying it is more acceptable than when you got a shallow cut and some bruises.
Basically I think the relative level of disrespect (perspective of the drinker) and the outrage (perspective of the recently dead) the victim might feel towards being handled that way are the main factors here.
An aside: The Character of Angel drank animal blood that he got from a local butcher.
Regarding the post. This player seems to be putting alot of thought into his character. I think that the GM would be getting alot to see what this Player thinks of the power and how it works with his code. I think this will give you a clear idea how this morality works out. I could see a mechanical reasons he is doing this, another way of healing himself, but I can also see a number of flavor reasons to approach this. Once you have an idea of how the Player sees how this power interacts with his Code, you might have a better idea of how he wants to roleplay it.
In game mechanics, this action is not an automatic Evil act, it doesn't have the evil descriptor encoded by it which means it can be used for Good, Neutral, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic reasons.
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I don't see this ever coming to a consensus about whether or not it is evil.
It certainly isn't good though, and that seems to be as important as whether or not it is evil.
I also don't see it as being overly lawful, at least in most societies. Yes there will be some outliers where consuming the life force (blood) of another creature, freshly killed or not, is okay but most would consider it abhorrent.
To me, the issue is moot because it is a chaotic neutral or true neutral act and that is two steps from being lawful good, which this character must be in order to be a paladin of Erastil. I would not allow it because of this, you can't pick and choose when to be lawful good and when to be true neutral, at least that's my opinion. If you are creating chaos by drinking the blood of sentient OR non-sentient creatures (I'd be freaked out by someone running up to a recently killed bear, tiger, boar, cougar or whatever and drinking it's blood, whether in game or out [especially out of game haha :P]) then you are headed for a fall from your paladin status.
Its liquid cannibalism. Definitely evil.
Its liquid cannibalism. Definitely evil.
Cannibalism isn't evil. So, definitely not evil.
Removed some posts and replies to them. Let's not bring real life politics into a discussion about fictional evil please.
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I don't see this ever coming to a consensus about whether or not it is evil.
It certainly isn't good though, and that seems to be as important as whether or not it is evil.
I also don't see it as being overly lawful, at least in most societies. Yes there will be some outliers where consuming the life force (blood) of another creature, freshly killed or not, is okay but most would consider it abhorrent.
To me, the issue is moot because it is a chaotic neutral or true neutral act and that is two steps from being lawful good, which this character must be in order to be a paladin of Erastil. I would not allow it because of this, you can't pick and choose when to be lawful good and when to be true neutral, at least that's my opinion. If you are creating chaos by drinking the blood of sentient OR non-sentient creatures (I'd be freaked out by someone running up to a recently killed bear, tiger, boar, cougar or whatever and drinking it's blood, whether in game or out [especially out of game haha :P]) then you are headed for a fall from your paladin status.
Even if drinking blood is a chaotic and/or neutral act, the Paladin code doesn't say anything about not being able to perform chaotic acts; it only bans evil acts.
Now the Paladin does need to maintain Lawful Good alignment, but alignment is a pretty broad-strokes thing. It's the overall measure of the character, not a set of ironclad roleplaying restrictions that must always be followed to the letter (otherwise there would be no point in it being a roleplaying game, since everyone would be one of nine strictly defined personalities).
That's not to mention that "neutral" acts covers such a huge array of things that saying a neutral act would make a Paladin fall quickly leads to insanity. 95% of daily life consists of morally neutral acts after all.
I don't think anyone would say a Paladin should fall for the morally neutral act of brushing his teeth. Or maybe he has to brush his teeth in a Lawful Good manner in order to avoid falling? "Foul plaque! I shall smite thee with my +1 Holy toothbush!"
I don't see this ever coming to a consensus about whether or not it is evil.
It certainly isn't good though, and that seems to be as important as whether or not it is evil.
I also don't see it as being overly lawful, at least in most societies. Yes there will be some outliers where consuming the life force (blood) of another creature, freshly killed or not, is okay but most would consider it abhorrent.
To me, the issue is moot because it is a chaotic neutral or true neutral act and that is two steps from being lawful good, which this character must be in order to be a paladin of Erastil. I would not allow it because of this, you can't pick and choose when to be lawful good and when to be true neutral, at least that's my opinion. If you are creating chaos by drinking the blood of sentient OR non-sentient creatures (I'd be freaked out by someone running up to a recently killed bear, tiger, boar, cougar or whatever and drinking it's blood, whether in game or out [especially out of game haha :P]) then you are headed for a fall from your paladin status.
Even if drinking blood is a chaotic and/or neutral act, the Paladin code doesn't say anything about not being able to perform chaotic acts; it only bans evil acts.
Now the Paladin does need to maintain Lawful Good alignment, but alignment is a pretty broad-strokes thing. It's the overall measure of the character, not a set of ironclad roleplaying restrictions that must always be followed to the letter (otherwise there would be no point in it being a roleplaying game, since everyone would be one of nine strictly defined personalities).
That's not to mention that "neutral" acts covers such a huge array of things that saying a neutral act would make a Paladin fall quickly leads to insanity. 95% of daily life consists of morally neutral acts after all.
I don't think anyone would say a Paladin should fall for the morally neutral act of brushing his teeth. Or maybe he has to brush his teeth in a Lawful Good manner in...
You sir, win the internet this day. XD
I don't think anyone would say a Paladin should fall for the morally neutral act of brushing his teeth. Or maybe he has to brush his teeth in a Lawful Good manner in...
What is Lawful Good toothpaste made of? Would it be angels? Or would it be made of demons? Maybe you would use both to get that swirl pattern?
He also when his true self was unleashed, one of the most evil vampires on the planet. In his better states, he was no Paladin.An aside: The Character of Angel drank animal blood that he got from a local butcher.
At first glance it would be hard to make Angel = a Paladin.
Reason #325688322458347384485748 why Paladins can't be anything except mindless robots.
EDIT: I forgot there was some nudity in the vids I linked. I watched this stuff as a child, so I tend to forget that some of it is a bit rough around the edges. Going to fix the vids to only show the correct parts. :P
EDIT 2: Aaaaand here we go. How you judge others is of no concern to me. Codes of Honor? Hah, caught in the act being all toothy after being nearly killed by having the life drained out of him. Now he has to argue with his GM for three days strait as to whether or not he gets to keep fighting monsters.
You know what really offends people, when I let them know that I have eaten both cat, and dog.
I've had human! ^.^
Also, as far as characters go, I have a Dragon Disciple with a bite attack. I can honestly say he's gotten his fair share of sentient humanoid stuck between his teeth before... Not sure it made him evil. I have had characters comment that he needs to wash his mouth often to avoid bad breath, but a good breath weapon at the end of the day usually cleans it RIGHT out!
Its liquid cannibalism. Definitely evil.Cannibalism isn't evil. So, definitely not evil.
Its evil enough to turn you into a Ghoul if you do it... without a spell being cast. That's some seriously bad ju ju.
Legends hold that the first ghouls were either cannibalistic humans whose unnatural hunger dragged them back from death or humans who in life fed on the rotting remains of their kin and died (and were reborn) from the foul disease—the true source of these undead scavengers is unclear.
You know what really offends people, when I let them know that I have eaten both cat, and dog.I've had human! ^.^
Also, as far as characters go, I have a Dragon Disciple with a bite attack. I can honestly say he's gotten his fair share of sentient humanoid stuck between his teeth before... Not sure it made him evil. I have had characters comment that he needs to wash his mouth often to avoid bad breath, but a good breath weapon at the end of the day usually cleans it RIGHT out!
I merely chewed in self-defense. I didn't swallow- Draco
I haven't read the thread, fully, but to the OP: Put my name in the hat where other people have said, "No, it's not inherently evil."
Where I might consider it a problem is if doing so violates the sacred taboos of a certain culture in which the paladin and body are located or the culture of the recently deceased.
2. Is it always or at any time wrong for a paladin to drink the blood of animals or other non-sentient beings?My positions:
2. Always acceptable. As long as you don't waste the meat, anyhow. Killing a boar or cow specifically to do this is totally fine (as killing a human would definitively not be).
Someone's family pet, right in front of them?
An animal sacred to a LG deity, in that deity's church?
The friendly dog that just pulled you out of an avalanche?
In those cases, it's not the drinking of the blood that is the evil part of the act.
So, if you came across someone's family pet thirty seconds after the animal was killed, and started drinking the corpse's blood in front of the little girl who owned the animal…?
I'd hope not, having lived most of my life with spontaneous nose-bleeds (turns out, I have allergies, which caused me to blow my nose, which made it bleed) does not justify losing my hypothetical paladin-hood.
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In those cases, it's not the drinking of the blood that is the evil part of the act.So, if you came across someone's family pet thirty seconds after the animal was killed, and started drinking the corpse's blood in front of the little girl who owned the animal…?
It's the harm to the little girl that makes it evil, not the drinking of the blood.
It's the harm to the little girl that makes it evil, not the drinking of the blood.In those cases, it's not the drinking of the blood that is the evil part of the act.So, if you came across someone's family pet thirty seconds after the animal was killed, and started drinking the corpse's blood in front of the little girl who owned the animal…?
The psychological harm *caused by* your act of drinking the blood of her beloved, dead pet.
I'm not saying that drinking blood is evil. My position is that it isn't, in and of itself, but can set the stage for evil later down the road (getting used to the power granted by the blood drinking, and killing an innocent to get your 'fix'). It can also be an evil act depending on the situation. In the example above, drinking the blood causes mental harm to an innocent - sounds like an evil act to me.
Impolite would be doing nothing for the girl as she sobs. Or standing by and saying, "Yep, that's a dead dog alright."
It raises to evil when your actions cause trauma to the innocent.