Cannon vs. Orc


Advice


I'm not sure if this goes in Advice, House Rules, or Rules question. It seems like there should be rules on this however I can't find them, so I'm asking for opinions, RAW or not, on how I should handle it.

The party is supplying their allies with a number of cannons to use at a battle. They will have the advantage of reaching the ford first, and have a chance to set up the cannons before the orcs arrive. The orcs won't try to cross during the day, instead waiting for night to fall.

Crossing the river is difficult terrain, so they are going to be slow going across. Even so, I don't expect the party to get more than a few rounds off before orcs are across. The main issue is that there will be a HUGE number of orcs crossing here.

So what effect do cannons have when firing into a mass of people?


As far as I can tell, it will only hit a single orc. The shot doesn't pass thorough or hit other targets, just the first target.


Ultimate Combat has the rules for cannons. Dont forget to use blast shot when the orcs get close to the cannons. - Gauss


I'm looking on PFSRD. I don't have UC on me here. Is there any rules for treating a cannon ball like a line effect? I'd imagine a cannon ball wouldn't lose enough force to stop after killing a single orc. It should pop a few people being him.


I am checking but I cannot find rules for cannons doing grazing shots.
Traditionally, a cannonball would be fired at the ground in order to do a grazing shot. This allowed it to bounce along the ground taking out many infantrymen. A direct shot into the infantry would only take out a few. - Gauss


I would treat a grazing shot like this: a line 15feet wide that does 1/2 damage. Cut the range of the cannon in 1/4 AFTER the first hit to represent the grazing shot effect. I realize that would get a bit complicated but how I can see it is like this:

The enemy is 200feet away (2 range increments). Normally it can go to 1000feet but since the grazing shot starts at 200feet it would only be able to go to 200+800/4 = 400feet. Of course, a hill would shorten the grazing effect.

I would treat a nongrazing shot (flat trajectory) as a line 5feet wide that does full damage out to maximum normal range or until it strikes an obstacle more substantial than a meatbag.

Of course, this is all custom. - Gauss


Load grape-shot and don't fire until you see the green of their eyes!

Seriously, cannons and melee-armed fantasy critters don't mix too well. A battery of field guns in 16th century warfare normally consisted of between four and eight cannons. Firing grape-shot (blast-shot, I suppose is the Pathfinder term) at formed ranks would decimate an attacking regiment: two or three hundred dead or wounded from a single salvo. At short-range, of course, and by short range I am talking forty or fifty years (120-150').

There is a reason artillery is called the Queen of Battle.

Master Arminas


King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden (1594-1632) was a major user of cannons and revolutionized both the rate of fire and the use of them. In many respects he is the father of the civil war style military.

In his age tercios would just march into his cannons and with grazing shots he would obliterate them. While he did use grapeshot (blast-shot in PF) it was his devastating use of grazing fire that really did the enemy in.

His cannons fired faster, were more accurate, and were incorporated into his infantry lines. A shame he died on the battlefield in the 30years war.

Anyhow, point is....use grazing fire at longer ranges and shot at short ranges. Except for the shot you will have to come up with your own rules for the grazing fire as PF has not seemed to provide any.

- Gauss


master arminas wrote:

Firing grape-shot (blast-shot, I suppose is the Pathfinder term) at formed ranks would decimate an attacking regiment: two or three hundred dead or wounded from a single salvo.

Decimate actually does not mean "destroy utterly." It means "removeal of a tenth"

Sorry to be pedantic, but this always bothers me...

Dark Archive

Knight Magenta wrote:
master arminas wrote:

Firing grape-shot (blast-shot, I suppose is the Pathfinder term) at formed ranks would decimate an attacking regiment: two or three hundred dead or wounded from a single salvo.

Decimate actually does not mean "destroy utterly." It means "removeal of a tenth"

Sorry to be pedantic, but this always bothers me...

Err...regiments are often two or three thousand men, so.....


The range on grapeshot, 30', seems a little close for what it is. I'll probably increase it to a 30 yard cone.

For grazing shot, Gauss, why should it do damage in a 15' wide area? I think 5' wide is a little much. Really, it should be a 6" wide path in my opinion. What's the reason for your number?

I'm thinking of letting the cannon deal damage for 200' past the first impact to all creatures in a straight line behind it, reflex saving throw for no damage. In the case of mass people, I'll just take the average. This assumes a successful DC 20 Engineering roll. Failure indicates damage only to the first 1d4 targets.


Grazing shots can involve alot of shrapnel. In a normal situation I would agree that it would be a 5' wide line but in your river (thus riverbed) situation all of that stone is turned into shrapnel making the grazing shots ALOT more dangerous. - Gauss


Knight Magenta wrote:
master arminas wrote:

Firing grape-shot (blast-shot, I suppose is the Pathfinder term) at formed ranks would decimate an attacking regiment: two or three hundred dead or wounded from a single salvo.

Decimate actually does not mean "destroy utterly." It means "removeal of a tenth"

Sorry to be pedantic, but this always bothers me...

And a typical regiment of the period would have a strength of between 1,000 to 3,000 troops. So decimate is indeed an accurate term, hence my use of it.

But the sudden loss of so many would often leave the survivors falling back in disorder. Morale plays a bigger role in real life than many people believe.

Master Arminas


Master Arminas, the scary part is...you are wrong. Tercios of the 80years war and then the 30years war (as opposed to later linear style 17th century tercios) would suffer over 50% casualties before actually breaking from cannonfire. Usually it took a calvary charge to break a tercio, not ranged fire. - Gauss

Edit: I should say, you are partly wrong. Not all units can stand up to that kind of fire but since we are talking regiments of the period which is usually Tercios (up until mid 1600s when the original-style Tercios became obsolete).


Some well-trained tericos could and did withstand horrendous casualties--but it all depended on (a) training and (b) leadership. I doubt that orcish tribesmen have the type of discipline and training of Gustav Aldolphus's infantry, or Spanish tericos, or the French or Swiss. That said, you are right in that I was over-generalizing.

Even with improved artillery during the Napoleonic Wars, the soldiers could take heavy fire without breaking--so long as they had a leader to exhort them to stand for 'king and country'. Or the 'revolution'. Such units did not break and rout, but often times the fire of the guns would stop them.

But poorly led, poorly trained troops, could and did break under fire. I stand corrected, that this did not often occur until the Napoleonic Wars.

Master Arminas


master arminas wrote:

Some well-trained tericos could and did withstand horrendous casualties--but it all depended on (a) training and (b) leadership. I doubt that orcish tribesmen have the type of discipline and training of Gustav Aldolphus's infantry, or Spanish tericos, or the French or Swiss. That said, you are right in that I was over-generalizing.

Even with improved artillery during the Napoleonic Wars, the soldiers could take heavy fire without breaking--so long as they had a leader to exhort them to stand for 'king and country'. Or the 'revolution'. Such units did not break and rout, but often times the fire of the guns would stop them.

But poorly led, poorly trained troops, could and did break under fire. I stand corrected, that this did not often occur until the Napoleonic Wars.

Master Arminas

Being under fire has a tendency to impose stasis on a unit, basically freezing it in place. This is why short-range fire fights were something officers feared. During the thirty years war there are plenty of examples of units stranding at very close range and more or less shooting each other to smithereens. Under those conditions soldiers in the lines are unlikely to be aware of anything more then a meter or two away (due to smoke and noise), so have no real idea if they take heavy losses or not. Basically a way to get allot of people killed without achieving much, it is not losses in themselves that makes a unit break.

As for the effect of artillery fire on closely paced orcs: it can be assumed to be about the same as on closely packed humans; that it cutting them don in neat rows (round shot) or big heaps (canister).
At close range (depending on the guns 100-200m) one would switch from round shot to canister and simply attempt to pepper the assault columns.

What sort of guns is to be used, 3-pdrs, 12-pdrs 24 pdrs (or something else)?


Hey, thanks for the help. The campaign ended with a PC victory. 4 months of play to level 8, ending in a climatic battle of orcs vs. a castle with a red dragon.

Lesson learned, firearms are beyond broken if you play with them RAW and don't go out of your way to include special enemies that counter them. The gunslinger spent a lot of time asleep because he was always the first guy focused down, but he was always the game changer, cannons included.

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