Ricardo - I price your firbolg out like so:Stats (6 pts) -- upgrade to +4 (10 pts) add a -2 penalty to a new category (-4 pts)
Low-Light Vision (1 pt)
Practiced Healer (1 pt)
Mighty Physique:
+1 CMD (2 pts) - its like a +1 AC (4pts) but limited to combat maneuvers, so half that.
+1 Grapple (1 pt) - priced like a bonus versus a creature, though that may be low.
50% more expensive (-1 at most) - things that increase base equipment costs are trivial in general, as base item cost becomes trivial quickly as you gain levels.. remove the "or -1 ac" downside, or its definitely a 0 point flaw.
Endure Elements (4 pt) - may not have combat value, but there are feats that improve nothing but cold or hot envirionment resistance... this gives effective immunity to all but the most extreme environments. That's at least worthy of a feat equivalent.Which gives me a total of 15 in current form.. so its a little bit much for a LA0 race, I'd say.
Thanks for your evaluation, VoodooMike. About the extra equipment cost, my concern is that, without the -1 AC, it would be total fluff, but i estimated it's value as -1 point. Based on your analysis, the trait i really underrated is the Endure Elements effect (as a matter of fact, i priced it as a 1-point ability). It seems i still have some work to do... lol
Ok, after some thoughts about the concept, that's what i brought:
Firbolg
Firbolg Racial Traits
+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Firbolgs are physically mighty and perceptive, but are less coordinate and socially clumsy, specially when dealing with other sentient races.
Giant: Firbolgs are humanoids with the giant subtype.
Medium: Firbolgs are medium-size creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size (but see mighty physique below).
Speed: Firbolgs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-light Vision (Ex): Firbolgs can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Mighty Physique: Firbolgs add a +1 racial bonus on all Combat Maneuver Defenses, due to their powerful bodies. However, outfits and armor costs increase by 50%.
Resounding Voice: due to their clear and resonating voices, Firbolgs receive a +2 racial bonus to any two of the following skills (chosen at character's creation): Diplomacy, Intimidation, Perform (Oratory) and Perform (Singing).
I came with this last trait after realizing the firbolg was given a too narrow approach, and, despite the Cha penalty, that's a race that definitely would have bards. I hope the possibility to choose which skills get the racial bonuses it's not unbalancing.
Ok, after some thoughts about the concept, that's what i brought:
Firbolg
Firbolg Racial Traits
+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Firbolgs are physically mighty and perceptive, but are less coordinate and socially clumsy, specially when dealing with other sentient races.Giant: Firbolgs are humanoids with the giant subtype.
Medium: Firbolgs are medium-size creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size (but see mighty physique below).
Speed: Firbolgs have a base speed of 30 feet.Low-light Vision (Ex): Firbolgs can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Mighty Physique: Firbolgs add a +1 racial bonus on all Combat Maneuver Defenses, due to their powerful bodies. However, outfits and armor costs increase by 50%.
Resounding Voice: due to their clear and resonating voices, Firbolgs receive a +2 racial bonus to any two of the following skills (chosen at character's creation): Diplomacy, Intimidation, Perform (Oratory) and Perform (Singing).
I came with this last trait after realizing the firbolg was given a too narrow approach, and, despite the Cha penalty, that's a race that definitely would have bards. I hope the possibility to choose which skills get the racial bonuses it's not unbalancing.
Hi, Ricardo. I thought I'd take a stab at this.
The firbolgs are still a 12-13 point race, depending on how you want to count the extra AC cost. Resounding Voice is still a "feat" ala acrobatics or deceitful (+2 to two skills) and would still cost 4 points under VoodooMike's guide. Also, Resounding Voice creates some problems, which I go into later. Finally, if I had to hazard a guess, you may stand a bit higher by 1-2 points based on the benefits of the giant subtype (potential racial HD [not specifically addressed], low light vision (already accounted for), and Intimidate and Perception always treated as class skills).
The -2 Cha is a drawback that really isn't. Resounding Voice is a big reason for this conclusion, as it relates to bards and other charisma-based classes.
A -2 to an ability score results in a -1 to everything affected by it. For bards, this would normally include bardic performance. When you give a +2 to two perform skills specifically called out in the bardic performance abilities countersong and distraction as being capable of fulfilling the visual or auditory components of those abilities, suddenly that -2 to Cha isn't felt quite so much. You just gave firbolg bards a net +1 to ALL their bardic performances. Also, a bard can utilize bardic performance far more often than their spells, which still take the -1 to saves and such from the -2 Cha. No other playable race with an ability penalty receives this kind of treatment that I'm aware of.
If you take the Perform skills out of this ability, you have what amounts to the Persuasive feat, only it's a racial bonus. Stack Persuasive on top of that bonus, suddenly you have +4 to Diplomacy and Intimidate. Intimidate gets the +3 class bonus regardless of which class is taken at first level so long as a skill point is spent there, so that's at least +4, probably +8 without taking into account the charisma modifier...all at 1st level. Max charisma is 16 at first level for a firbolg, so that Intimidate +8 just became Intimidate +11...regardless of class.
There's a couple things I would do, if I were creating this race. I would drop Resounding Voice and add Persuasive as a free feat, re-imagine the race and change the penalty, re-imagine the race and change/replace Resounding Voice.
I hope this helps. I really like the idea. :)
VoodooMike, I am so yoinking this. I have found it extraordinarily useful in a couple of projects of mine since I found this thread last week. Thank you. :)
And, yes everyone, I'll have a race up for y'all to pick apart at your leisure by the end of the week. ;)
...Resounding Voice is still a "feat" ala acrobatics or deceitful (+2 to two skills) and would still cost 4 points under VoodooMike's guide....
And, apparently, I can't read (or maybe it's do math). I wear glasses and am blind as a bat in mid-daylight IRL, so it shouldn't be too surprising. Sorry. :(
A feat is worth 8 points, although +2 racial bonus to two skills is worth 4. I presume that's because feat bonuses are generally untyped and racial bonuses are typed. Is this presumption correct?
...Resounding Voice is still a "feat" ala acrobatics or deceitful (+2 to two skills) and would still cost 4 points under VoodooMike's guide....And, apparently, I can't read (or maybe it's do math). I wear glasses and am blind as a bat in mid-daylight IRL, so it shouldn't be too surprising. Sorry. :(
A feat is worth 8 points, although +2 racial bonus to two skills is worth 4. I presume that's because feat bonuses are generally untyped and racial bonuses are typed. Is this presumption correct?
A feat OF YOUR CHOICE is 8 pts. A predetermined feat is 4 pts. +2 racial bonus to 2 skills is 2 pts, because the feats such as Acrobatics increase to +4 at higher levels, while the racial abilities do not.
Hope that clears things up?
Yes it does, thank you Tim. :) I saw that this morning as I was entering all the info from the original post into a spreadsheet for my own use. *go figure*
Aside from the confusion about cost, I standby my statement that the charisma penalty isn't really a drawback due to the resounding voice ability.
I started thinking about having 'negative feats' as penalties to balance out more powerful monstrous races. For a simple starter, I put together a gnoll player race:
.
Gnoll
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: Gnolls are tougher and larger than humans but their minds are bestial and crude. (2 points)
Beastkin: Gnolls are both humanoids of the gnoll subtype and monstrous humanoids. They count as both for the purposes of effects and qualifying for feats, traits and abilities. (0 points)
Darkvision (Ex): Gnolls have darkvision up to 60 feet. (2 points)
Natural Armour: Gnolls have tough hides and bristly fur that grants them a +1 natural armour bonus (4 points).
Monstrous: Gnolls are not as adaptable as the other humanoid races. They do not gain a feat at 1st level. (-4 points?)
Total: 4 points.
The total comes out as much less than the other races, but the gnoll is an extremely skewed race. You could look at the +2 str and con and +1 NA and forget the rest and play a stupid fighter. The loss of a feat makes it a more difficult choice.
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I started thinking about having 'negative feats' as penalties to balance out more powerful monstrous races. For a simple starter, I put together a gnoll player race:
.
Gnoll
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: Gnolls are tougher and larger than humans but their minds are bestial and crude. (2 points)
Beastkin: Gnolls are both humanoids of the gnoll subtype and monstrous humanoids. They count as both for the purposes of effects and qualifying for feats, traits and abilities. (0 points)
Darkvision (Ex): Gnolls have darkvision up to 60 feet. (2 points)
Natural Armour: Gnolls have tough hides and bristly fur that grants them a +1 natural armour bonus (4 points).
Monstrous: Gnolls are not as adaptable as the other humanoid races. They do not gain a feat at 1st level. (-4 points?)Total: 4 points.
The total comes out as much less than the other races, but the gnoll is an extremely skewed race. You could look at the +2 str and con and +1 NA and forget the rest and play a stupid fighter. The loss of a feat makes it a more difficult choice.
heres my take:
"Civilized" GnollsMedium humanoid (gnoll)
+2 str, +2wis, -2 int
Medium: Gnolls are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Gnolls have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Gnolls can see in the dark up to 60 feet (see darkvision.)
+1 Natural armor
receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine if food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste.
+2 intimidate
weapon familiarity: proficient with flails and heavy flails, and treat dire flails, nunchucks, and spiked chains as martial weapons.
I started thinking about having 'negative feats' as penalties to balance out more powerful monstrous races. For a simple starter, I put together a gnoll player race:
.
Gnoll
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: Gnolls are tougher and larger than humans but their minds are bestial and crude. (2 points)
Beastkin: Gnolls are both humanoids of the gnoll subtype and monstrous humanoids. They count as both for the purposes of effects and qualifying for feats, traits and abilities. (0 points)
Darkvision (Ex): Gnolls have darkvision up to 60 feet. (2 points)
Natural Armour: Gnolls have tough hides and bristly fur that grants them a +1 natural armour bonus (4 points).
Monstrous: Gnolls are not as adaptable as the other humanoid races. They do not gain a feat at 1st level. (-4 points?)Total: 4 points.
The total comes out as much less than the other races, but the gnoll is an extremely skewed race. You could look at the +2 str and con and +1 NA and forget the rest and play a stupid fighter. The loss of a feat makes it a more difficult choice.
Another option is to fluff it where they have to take a feat. Maybe call it "Civilized", playing on Name Violation's idea. Or just nerf the race using traits like they did to the tiefling.
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I'm trying to flesh out the racials for a pair of races that I have created. I've compared them to the original post of the thread and made a discovery. One comes up woefully short, and the other come out 1 point over the 10 point threshold.
Canidae (9 (11?)/10)
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma (none)
Medium (none)
Pass without Trace 1/day as a caster of equal character level. (+2?)
Low-light Vision (1 pt)
Canidae receive a +2 racial bonus on Survival skill checks. (1 pt)
Scent: As per Pathfinder RPG page 564. (4 pts)
Canidae receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks. (1 pt)
Cold Resistance 5 (2 pts)
Faelyn (0/10)
-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha (none)
Small (none)
Slow (-4 pts)
Faelyn receive a +2 racial bonus on Stealth skill checks. (1 pt)
Faelyn receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics skill checks. (1 pt)
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt)
Low-light Vision (1 pt)
For the Halfling build (to get it up to the 10 points, I would add +1 AC for 4 points,
Why? Under Luck of Heroes (the regional version), you get a +1 to All Saves and +1 AC. The Halfling luck ability is basically the same.
I consider their Weapon Proficiency a 0 pointer. So, to make up the 2 points difference, I add a half-feat.
The perfect thing for Pathfinder as a half feat is a trait. So, the ever adaptable halflings, who seem to merge into other cultures so well, start a Pathfinder Campaign with three traits instead of two.
Any suggestions on balance with this?
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Nothrog:
The Nothrog are the descendants of the monstrous humanoid races that have cross bred over time. (ie. Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, etc.)
It seems a waste to me to have four martial weapon proficiencies granted as racial weapons, when the vast majority of them are going to be 1st level warriors (for the grunts, like the 'standard' goblin, kobold or orc) or have class levels in barbarian, ranger or fighter (for the leader-types, like the 'standard' hobgoblin), and have martial weapon proficiency as a class feature anyway.
Some sort of 'hatred' of neighboring humanoid races might end up being more useful. (And inducting one's children with a sense of genocidal hatred would be a far more appropriate racial trait for an evil race than a good one, like dwarves or gnomes, IMO.)
Hey, loving this thread, found it very useful. I had made a few custom races for a setting I am running, but found them a little off-balance. So re-made them here following the guide. Wasn't sure on a few things, might have over priced something here and there. What do you guys think?
Longren:
Humanoid (dragon)
+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha (0)
Dragon Subtype (-1-2)
Breath Weapon (+6)
-1/day, 15 foot cone of fire, 1D6 at first level, 2D6 at third, and one extra D6 ever three levels after.
Weapon Familiarity (+1)
-Repeating Crossbows, Glaive, Siangham
+2 Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive (+2, +1)
Low Light Vision (+1)
total (10-9)
Typhian:
Humanoid
+2 Any Stat
Fire Resistance 5 (+4)
Darkvision 60' (+2)
+1 to any roll to confirm criticals (+2)
+2 bonus on saves vs Poison, Toxins, and Nausea (+2)
total (10)
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With the arrival of the Advanced Race Guide playtest, I think this thread deserves a bump for reference and comparison. This set of race-building rules is quite solid, in my opinion. The ARG could learn a lot from it.
With the arrival of the Advanced Race Guide playtest, I think this thread deserves a bump for reference and comparison. This set of race-building rules is quite solid, in my opinion. The ARG could learn a lot from it.
I actually had the same thought, and I'm starting to write one up now :)
With the arrival of the Advanced Race Guide playtest, I think this thread deserves a bump for reference and comparison. This set of race-building rules is quite solid, in my opinion. The ARG could learn a lot from it.I actually had the same thought, and I'm starting to write one up now :)
I started it here, but I don't have time to finish it right now. Feel free to expand on it.
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Sorry for dredging this thread up after months of dormancy but I wanted to get peoples reaction to my diminutive race. Which I loosely based off of the rat familiar in the bestiary I.
I wanted to make my race as close to this guide as possible. How did I do?
Here are the traits as I have made them.
Diminutive: Rats are diminutive creatures and gain a +4 size bonus to their Armor Class, a +4 size bonus on attack rolls, a -4 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +12 size bonus on stealth checks.
Continuous Movement: Rats have a base speed of 20 feet which does not diminish when climbing or swimming.
Low-Light Vision: Rats can see twice as far as humans in dim lighting. see Chapter 7 Pages 172-173 (Pathfinder Core Rule Book).
Keen Senses: Rats receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
Scent: Rats have the Scent ability.
Spell Resistance: Rats receive a resistance to spells of 6+class levels.
Sure-Footed: Rats receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks.
Languages: Rats begin play knowing Common. Rats with high Intelligence scores can choose from any language.
and here is how I think they work out;
-10
-4 (speed of 20)
-14
-2 (-2 penalty to stat that already has an adjustment)
-16
+2 (speed is not reduced when swiming or climbing)
-14
+1 (Low-Light Vision)
-13
+1 (Keen senses +2 to perception)
-12
+6 (Scent ability)
-6
+4 (spell resistance)
-2
+2 (Sure-footed +2 to acrobatics and Climb skill checks)
0
What do you think about this, is it balanced or just plain nuts?
Sorry for dredging this thread up after months of dormancy but I wanted to get peoples reaction to my diminutive race. Which I loosely based off of the rat familiar in the bestiary I.
I wanted to make my race as close to this guide as possible. How did I do?
Here are the traits as I have made them.
** spoiler omitted **
and here is how I think they work out;
-10
-4 (speed of 20)
-14
-2 (-2 penalty to stat that already has an adjustment)
-16
+2 (speed is not reduced when swiming or climbing)
-14
+1 (Low-Light Vision)
-13
+1 (Keen senses +2 to perception)
-12
+6 (Scent ability)
-6
+4 (spell resistance)
-2
+2 (Sure-footed +2 to acrobatics and Climb skill checks)
0What do you think about this, is it balanced or just plain nuts?
-4 Strength +2Dexterity +2 Intelligence: -2pt
Diminutive: 0pt
Speed 20ft: -4pt
20ft climb spd: +4pt
20ft swim spd: +4pt
Low-Light Vision: +1pt
+2 racial bonus on Perception checks: +1pt
Scent: +4pt
Rats receive a resistance to spells of 6+class levels: +4pt
+2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks: +2pts
Without the SR they're a 10pt race. If you drop the SR they'll be balanced.
I have an idea similar to the Kasatha. It has 6 arms, and uses multiple weapons. Its descended from a mix of Kasathas and Miriliths. After several hundred years they have become their own race, and learned to deal with other races relatively well. They tend to be Lawful to one extent or another, but some have been known to be Chaotic.
That is the basic idea behind this race. Though it would be easy to give it any fluff I wanted. This is basically taken from the Half Demon template found for Mariliths in Demons Revisited. It's a great resource!
HALF-MARlllTH
A half-marilith has the lower body of a great serpent and four arms. Her eyes are pale (giving the appearance of having no pupils), and a short row of horns runs along the top of her head down her back. The half-marilith is a dangerous foe, and her confidence and pride make her more so, as she rarely admits defeat. Her role is typically that of a commander of an army, although she also excels as an assassin.
CR: A half-marilith's CR is + 1 higher than a half-fiend of its Hit Dice would normally be.
Natural Armor: Improves by 2.
Speed: A half-marilith does not gain a fly speed.
Melee: A half-marilith gains a tail slap attack. Damage depends on her size. This tail slap attack has the grab and constrict abilities (constriction damage equals the damage normally caused by the tail slap, but always applies the half-marilith's full Strength bonus to damage caused).
She also gains two additional arms, each of which can wield weapons with ease.
Multiweapon Mastery (Ex): A half-marilith never takes penalties to her attack roll when fighting with multiple weapons.
Alternate Spell-Like Abilities: Replace desecrate with fly. Replace poison 3/day with greater magic weapon 3/day. Replace contagion with true seeing. Replace unhallow with greater teleport. Replace horrid wilting with blade barrier.
Abilities: A half-marilith gains Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2, and Cha +4.
Kasatha
Type:Humanoid 0 RP
Size: Medium 0 RP
Base Speed: Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers: Flexible (+2 Dex, +2 Wis) +2 RP
Languages: Standard 0 RP
Racial Abilities:
Defense Racial Traits:
Defensive Training, Greater 4 RP
Desert Runner 2 RP
Feat and Skill Racial Traits:
Stalker 1 RP
Movement Racial Traits:
Jumper 2 RP
Terrain Stride (Desert) 1 RP
Other Racial Traits:
Multi-armed (4 arms) 8 RP
Total: 20 RP
This race has no level adjustment...
Kasamiths have the following traits:
Type Humanoid 0 RP
Size: Medium 0 RP
Base Speed: Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifier: (Flexible) +2 Dex, +2 Wis. 2 RP
Languages: Standard 0 RP
Racial Abilities:
Defensive Racial Traits:
Defensive Training, Greater 4 RP
Feat and Skill Racial Traits:
Stalker (Stealth and Perception are always class skills) 1 RP
Other Racial Traits:
Multi-armed (6 arms) 12 RP
Multiweapon Mastery (A Kasamith never takes penalties to her attack roll when fighting with multiple weapons) RP 4 (?)
Regeneration (1 +1/ at 5th level and every 5 levels [5th level total of 2, 10th level total of 3, 15th level total of 4, 20th level total of 5] 4 RP
This form of regeneration does not have any restrictions besides beheading or death from total massive damage (such as total loss of constitution, -10 HP [or more with certain classes or feats], and death from massive damage [failed fortitude save vs. massive damage] as usual. This ability starting out so low is due to the fact that it is indeed negating the regular effects of Regeneration to be overcome by something such as fire or acid, etc. and not having to take Fast Healing to do so. If anyone agrees that I can have Regineration without having Fast Healing to accomplish this, then I would be happy to do so, otherwise I have to critique it in this manner... Because of its ability, I feel this should still cost the same (because of the increasing bonuses at higher levels, albeit small) that this ability should still cost 4 RP
I personally feel that Multiple Arms should not cost 4 RP... Maybe 3, but not 4. Just my personal feeling on the matter.
As Multiweapon Mastery has never been defined by RP before, and it is a decent ability, I think it should merrit a decent RP
I would also love to add the Swordtrained ability, but I don't think I this race can afford the 4 RP... It's already 7 points over what Kasatha started out with, and this doesn't even include any spell like abilities that Half-Marilith would get...
Total RP: 27
If anyone has any critiques, or anything to suggest, please do! I realize this post has not had traffic for quite some time, but I'm still hope it's seen!