Swashbuckler (From Tome of Secrets) Reworked


Conversions


I like the concept of the swashbuckler presented in TOS, still, it looked incomplete to me and weak in comparison to the core classes. Because of that, I tried to improve the class a little bit, but I neet help to balance it.

Swashbuckler

BAB: Good.
Saves: Good Fort and Ref / Poor Will.

Class Skills
The Swashbuckler’s class skills are Acrobatic (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str). Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

1 - Evade +1, Weapon Finesse
2 - Thrust +1d6, Uncanny Dodge
3 - Bonus Feat, Rogue Talent
4 - Evade +2
5 - Evasion, Thrust +2d6, Weapon Training
6 - Bonus Feat
7 - Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent
8 - Find the Mark, Thrust +3d6
9 - Bonus Feat, Evade +3
10 - Improved Evasion
11 - Rogue Talent, Thrust +4d6
12 - Bonus Feat
13 - Acrobatic Skill Mastery, Deflect Arrows
14 - Evade +4, Thrust +5d6
15 - Bonus Feat, Rogue Talent
16 - Improved Mark
17 - Slippery Mind, Thrust +6d6
18 - Bonus Feat
19 - Evade +5, Rogue Talent
20 - Thrust +7d6, Weapon Mastery

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are proficient with light armor and the buckler.

Evade (Ex): A swashbuckler is a fluid combatant, relying on quickness rather than heavy armor to deflect blows. When wearing light armor or no armor, the swashbuckler adds his Evade bonus to his armor class. This is considered a dodge bonus and whenever the swashbuckler is denied his Dexterity bonus to armor he also loses his Evade bonus. Evade may be substituted for the dodge feat as a prerequisite for other feats (for example, a swashbuckler with evade +1 need not take the dodge feat in order to select the Mobility feat).

Weapon Finesse (Ex): While proficient in all martial weapons, dexterous swashbucklers are particularly effective with light weapons. The swashbuckler gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Thrust (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler learns how to exploit an opening, dealing extra damage. The swashbuckler may thrust whenever his opponent is denied her dexterity bonus to her armor class (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not) or when he flanks his opponent. This extra damage is indicated on the table below. Should the swashbuckler score a critical hit with a thrust, this extra damage is not multiplied.
A swashbuckler may only thrust with a piercing melee weapon that is covered under the weapon finesse feat. The thrust bonus stacks with the rogue’s sneak attack and similar abilities.
The swashbuckler must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A swashbuckler cannot thrust while striking a creature with concealment. Creatures immune to sneak attack are also immune to thrust ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a swashbuckler can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his dexterity bonus to Ac if immobilized. A swashbuckler with this ability can still lose his dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against him.
If a swashbuckler already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a swashbuckler gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats. A swashbuckler counts 1/2 his total swashbuckler level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack.

Rogue Talent (Ex): As the swashbuckler gains experience, he learns a number of talents that aid him and confound his foes. At 3th level, a swashbuckler gains one rogue talent. He gains am additional rogue talent for every 4 levels of swashbuckler attained after 3rd level. A swashbuckler cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Evasion (Ex): At 5th level the swashbuckler is adept at avoiding unusual attacks. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can only be used if the swashbuckler is wearing light or no armor. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler receives weapon training as per the fighter special ability, but he must select the light blades group. He gains this benefit with only this group, but the bonus increases normally, as shown on the fighters’ ability.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A swashbuckler of 7th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This ability functions exactly like the rogue’s ability.

Find the Mark (Ex): At 8th level, the swashbuckler increases his threat range by one when using any melee weapon with which he has weapon finesse. A weapon that would threaten a critical on 20 would now do so on a 19-20, and one which threatens on a 19-20 would now do so on 18-20. This ability works with other abilities which increases threat ranges.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 10th level, the swashbuckler’s evasion improves. In addition to take no damage on successful saves, the swashbuckler now takes only half damage on failed saves.

Acrobatic Skill Mastery (Ex): At 13th level, a swashbuckler becomes so certain in the use of his acrobatic skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making acrobatic checks, a swashbuckler may take 10 even if stress and distraction would normally prevent him from doing so.

Deflect Arrows (Ex): At 13th level, the swashbuckler may use any weapon covered under the weapon finesse feat to deflect ranged attacks. This ability functions exactly as the feat of the same name, except that the swashbuckler uses a weapon instead of his bare hands.

Improved Mark (Ex): At 16th level, the swashbuckler becomes even more adept at finding marks. The threat range now improves by two when the swashbuckler uses his Find the Mark ability.

Slippery Mind (Ex): At 17th level, a swashbuckler receives a second chance to wriggle free from a magical effect that would otherwise control or compel him. If a swashbuckler is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the rapier, dagger, or hand crossbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (x2 becomes x3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

That's all.

Scarab Sages

A couple of thoughts.

1. I like the additional skills added, they seem particularly appropriate with you move in the rogue direction.

2. I like the clarification on the feats. Using one half the swashbucklers level as his fighter level seems about right to me.

3. Regarding rogue talents. Would you consider thrust damage to be equivalent to sneak attack damage? Can thrust damage be used in place of sneak attack damage for things like the Bleeding Attack rogue talent?

3.5 Also, between 6 bonus feats and 5 rogue talents (1 bonus feat, weapon focus and 3 other talents, probably), that may be one or two too many. A fighter gets 11 bonus feats. What you propose can get 10 (finesse, deflect arrows, 6 bonus from the class, 1 bonus as a talent, and weapon focus as a talent). That seems to push a little close to the number a fighter gets.

4. I'm not sure Slippery Mind really fits. Maybe it does for your vision of this class. I would suggest dropping it and changing the wording on rogue talents to allow for advanced talents starting at level 15. You could grab Slippery Mind with a advanced talent if so desired, or pick something else. Dropping it in favor of the talent approach would help scale down the power level a little.

5. Weapon Mastery. If you keep it, I would require that the chosen weapon was piercing and weapon finesse applied. However, stealing the fighter's capstone seems a little rude to fighters. I would say something a little less powerful might be in order here.

It would be interesting to build a fighter and compare to the swashbuckler.

Let's look at AC quickly.
Swashbuckler 20
+5 evade (dodge, so applies to touch, very good)
+4 mithral chain shirt (max dex +6, check 0)

Fighter 20
+9 mithral full plate (max dex +7, check check 0)

So, it would seem the evade ability is pretty much in line with the armor training ability.

Comparing to a fighter, I come to the following conclusions, at level 20.
Feats:
fighter: 11
swashbuckler: 10 feats (possibly)
Armor: (ignoring enchantments and shields)
fighter: 9
swashbuckler: 9

Fighters get bravery, armor mastery and a few additional weapon groups.

Swashbuckler gets more skills, better saves, 3 rogue talents (assuming 2 are spent on feats), evasion, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, thrust +7d6, +2 to crit threat range.

I really wanted to like what you did, I've been thinking about making a swashbuckler recently, but it seems you may have pushed it a little too far. Perhaps a reasonable fix would be something like:

Reduce the number of bonus feats by 2, drop Improved Evasion, drop Slippery Mind, and allow advanced talents starting at level 11 (both Slippery Mind and Improved Evasion can be gotten through advanced talents), and reduce or replace the weapon mastery ability.

That's my 2cp, I look forward to seeing what you end up with.

Edit: I was comparing to the fighter, obviously. In that regard, I think it might be pushing the power level a little. If you feel the fighter is on the underpowered level, than perhaps what you did is fine. I have no idea how it compares to barbarians, or rangers, or anything else.


I thought some of the abilities of this class were too powerful to begin with. The combination of full bab, weapon training, and the fact that they get evasion and uncanny dodge and a form of sneak attack is in itself more powerful then all the other base martial classes. Find the Mark is simply unheard of in any other class and can be used to great munchkin affect. This class as well as many other 3rd party classes continue to show unbalancing abilities that haven't been properly weighed against existing core classes.


All in all the the TOS version is pretty "meh". (As are the rest of the TOS classes.) It does not really capture the concept of a swashbuckler, but rather tries to merge rogue and fighter into one, thus creating an akward unbalanced character at best. To date I have seen no 3rd party product that has captured the essense of what Paizo does with their core classes.

Perhaps it may be easier to create what you are looking for by creating an archtype for either the fighter or rogue, depending on what flavor you prefer more.


My question is what order do you apply "Find the Mark" and "Improved Mark" in regards to the Improved Critical feat or the Keen magic weapon property. Do you reduce the critical range by 1 or 2 and then double the critical range or do you double the critical range and then lower it by 1 or 2?

My group had a headache trying to figure this out and coming up with a fair houserule on how to handle it, so I thought I would bring it up.


I'll try to answer everyone:

Kexle: I really like your suggestions. I’ve posted this version knowing that it wasn’t good enough and I wanted opinions to know what I could do to make it playable. I’ll soon post a new version based on your post. Thank you.

Kalavas: I like the concept of this class, but I think that it’s a little unbalanced too, that’s what I’m trying to fix, but I need help. I came with the possibility to drop Thrust to a maximum of 5d6 and drop Find the Mark and Improved Mark (I’m very uncomfortable with those two).

Tarinor: Both classes have swashbucklers like archetypes, but I need a full class to run my next campaign.

Wildonion: Could you write about this houserule? It might help me a lot.


Some changes:

1 - Evade +1, Weapon Finesse
2 - Thrust +1d6, Uncanny Dodge
3 - Improved Reaction +2, Rogue Talent
4 - Bonus Feat, Evade +2
5 - Evasion, Weapon Training
6 - Thrust +2d6
7 - Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent
8 - Bonus Feat, Find the Mark
9 - Evade +3, Improved Reaction
10 - Acrobatic Charge, Thrust +3d6
11 - Rogue Talent
12 - Bonus Feat
13 - Deflect Arrows
14 - Evade +4, Thrust +5d6
15 - Advanced Talents, Improved Reaction +4
16 - Bonus Feat
17 - Acrobatic Mastery
18 - Thrust +5d6
19 - Evade +5, Rogue Talent
20 - Bonus Feat, ???(maybe Crippling Critical from Duelist)

New Class Features

Improved Reaction (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. At 9th level, the bonus increases to +3. At 15th level, the bonus increases to +4. This bonus stacks with the benefit provided by the Improved Initiative feat.

Find the Mark (Ex): At 8th level, the swashbuckler gains Improved Critical feat while using any piercing melee weapon that is covered under the weapon finesse feat.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 10th level, a swashbuckler gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, he may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

Advanced Talents: At 15th level, a swashbuckler can choose one advanced talent in place of a rogue talent. He can choose another advanced talent at 19th level.


darthmaru wrote:
Some changes:

I like the Idea's you have here, but I think you may need to pull it back even further. The Sohei gets weapon training at 6th level as well as every 6 levels after that. This should probably be implemented.

Next the only base class that gets both uncanny dodge and evasion is the rogue. He's seriously hampered by his 3/4 bab though, so you should probably lose one of these.
I see no problem with improved reaction, and you could take it further without much power creep by allowing the swashbuckler to always act in the surprise round.
Possibly cut down the number of rogue talents and definitely cut down on the bonus feats.
This isn't a fighter rogue duelist. It's a single class. With that in mind, he should get some cooler abilities at extremely high levels, which I really don't see here. Give it a good capstone, but not Weapon Mastery.
They really screwed up on this class and it will take some fixing to get it down to normal levels of power, but you're on the right track.

Scarab Sages

I'm liking it a lot at this point.

I think it could still use a few tweaks, but you did a few of the things I was just thinking to myself....

Spoiler:

I was just driving to the liquor store to buy a bottle, talking to myself about what I would change in your write up, and I said, "Why not change 'find the mark' to just be the improved critical feat?"
You guys talk to yourself about how to tweak a PF class on on the way to the liquor store too, right?

I like what you did with Find the Mark. Very simple implementation.

I like the improved reaction ability, very nice.

I like that you slowed the thrust damage progression, I nearly added that to my list yesterday, but I didn't want to sound too down on things. I want this to work so that I can play one. :) (Should be +4d6 at 14th, a typo.)

I would still like a statement that for the purpose of rogue talents, thrust damage counts as sneak attack damage. (Did I mention I want to steal this class one of these days?)

To incorporate Kalavas's ideas, perhaps bump the improved reaction to
+2 at 3rd
+3 at 8th (or even +4)
+4 at 13th (or even +6)
able to act in the surprise round at 18th (and +5? or +8)
possibly work the surprise round business into the capstone?
I don't think a melee focused build will cause much damage by acting first, but it is a cool ability.

Regarding Uncanny Dodge. Since this class is light on armor, I think that Uncanny Dodge at 2nd is the right thing to do. However, to scale the power level back a little, you could do the following:

Remove Improved Uncanny Dodge at 7th and replace the "bonus feats" at 8th and 16th with something like "advanced combat training"

Advanced Combat Training The swashbuckler trains in one area of advanced combat training. This manifests itself in one of the following ways:


  • Improved Uncanny Dodge
  • Improved Evasion
  • A bonus combat feat. Treat the swashbucklers level as a fighters for the purpose of this feat.
  • Something else cool that seems to fit.

While we are on the scaling the power level back topic, it would seem like changing the weapon proficiencies to simple, light and one-handed martial, and ranged martial would be both appropriate to the class and scale things back slightly.

I would also consider replacing one of the bonus feats with a reworded power attack/piranha strike feat that only applied to a one handed weapon finessable piercing weapon. I would replace the feat at level 4. I would specify that it cannot be combined with either of the above.

Regarding the capstone, you really want to make something new. I was working on a custom class for a while and it took me months to come up with something, but the joy of really designing the appropriate capstone is by far better than just stealing one. That being said, if you are going to start playing this class, just talk with your dm and once it gets designed, add it in. That's what I did. I was 5th level before I finished designing my class.


A capstone ability might be....

Exceptional Reflexes : The swashbuckler's sense of danger and reflexes have become honed to a hair trigger. The swashbuckler always acts first in combat, and may make full actions in the surprise round. If two or more swashbucklers are in combat together, they roll initiative normally to determine which of them go first between them.


Kexle wrote:

Regarding Uncanny Dodge. Since this class is light on armor, I think that Uncanny Dodge at 2nd is the right thing to do. However, to scale the power level back a little, you could do the following:

Remove Improved Uncanny Dodge at 7th and replace the "bonus feats" at 8th and 16th with something like "advanced combat training"

Advanced Combat Training The swashbuckler trains in one area of advanced combat training. This manifests itself in one of the following ways:


  • Improved Uncanny Dodge
  • Improved Evasion
  • A bonus combat feat. Treat the swashbucklers level as a fighters for the purpose of this feat.
  • Something else cool that
...

I understand your wanting to include both uncanny dodge and evasion into this build, but you need to look at the archetypes and classes that already have these and compare their abilities\disadvantages to this class. It doesn't work for this class to have both of these great abilities and a full BAB and being able to take fighter only feats.

mdt wrote:

A capstone ability might be....

Exceptional Reflexes : The swashbuckler's sense of danger and reflexes have become honed to a hair trigger. The swashbuckler always acts first in combat, and may make full actions in the surprise round. If two or more swashbucklers are in combat together, they roll initiative normally to determine which of them go first between them.

I like this idea quite a bit, but it might need to be a little stronger. Perhaps being able to move and take a full attack action while charging, as well as always going first in the surprise round. It's a capstone so I think it should be as powerful and unbalancing as some of the others I have seen.


Well, as I posted, they would always go first in a surprise round, and have a full action. I don't think any other class get's a full action in a surprise round now.

They already have the ability to charge through difficult terrain. You might want to give them the ability to change directions during a charge at an earlier level (or, they could take that as a rogue ability, if I remember correctly).

Scarab Sages

I propose the correct way to try balance this class is against the core classes, in this case, Ranger 16/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2. I'm not sure what this will turn out like, but here are my thoughts as I discover them myself. A way too long, but reasonably thorough comparison is included. Kavalas, please look at the spoiler and then read the postscript.

Spoiler:

So, that core character would give:
BAB: Good
Hit Dice: d10 (plus a little from barbarian)
Saves: Good Fort (actually really good with triple +2 bonus), Good Ref (slightly less), Poor Will
Skills: 96 ranks ~ 5 ranks/level - depending on how things work, either 4 or 6 a level.
Weapons: all simple and martial
Armor: Light, Medium, Heavy, and Shields (including tower shields)

(note: the x's mean that I've used/replaced that ability below)

from Barbarian:
-Fast Movement - x
-Rage
-Rage Power
-Uncanny Dodge - x

from Fighter
-Bonus Feat(1) - x
-Bonus Feat(2) - x
-Bravery

from Ranger
-1st Favored enemy - x
-Track
-Wild Empathy
-Style Feat (1) - x
-Endurance - x
-Favored Terrain - x
-Hunter's Bond
-2nd Favored Enemy - x
-Style Feat (2) - x
-Woodland Stride - x
-Swift Tracker
-2nd Favored Terrain - x
-Evasion - x
-3rd Favored Enemy - x
-Style Feat (3) - x
-Quarry
-Camouflage - x
-3rd Favored Terrain - x
-Style Feat (4) - x
-4th Favored Enemy - x
-Improved Evasion - x

So, with that as a starting point, let's see what we can say:
(I will use +,.,- for comparisons. + means the previous multiclass has the bonus, . means the two classes are roughly equal, - means the previous class is losing something. At least in my mind.)
For ease of discussion, define:
Swashbuckler weapon: any simple or martial light or one handed piercing weapon that weapon finesse applies to.
Advanced Combat Training: The swashbuckler gains one of the following abilities:


  • Imrproved evasion
  • Improved uncanny dodge
  • A combat feat. Treat the swahbuckler's level as a fighters level for the purpose of this feat.

BAB: good (.)
Hit Dice: d10 (.)
Saves: Good Fort, Good Ref, Poor Will (.)
Weapons: Simple, Swashbuckler, ranged marial (-)
Armor: Light, Buckler (--)
Skills: to be addressed later, depending.

Uncanny Dodge (.) {as barbarian}
Evasion (.) {as ranger}
Advanced Combat Training (.) {Replaces ranger improved evasion}
Weapon Finesse (.) {Replaces ranger style feat (1)}
Evade +1 (.) {Replaces rangers 1st favored enemy}
Evade +2 (.) {Replaces rangers 2st favored enemy}
Evade +3 (.) {Replaces rangers 3st favored enemy}
Evade +4 (.) {Replaces rangers 4st favored enemy}
Evade +5 (.) {Replaces rangers camoflauge}
Weapon Focus - Choose one swashbuckler weapon to gain the feat with (.) - {Replaces rangers style feat (2)}
Skill Focus (Acrobatics) (.) - {Replaces ranger endurace feat}
Weapon Training - Swashbuckler weapons, as the fighter ability with the following change, +1 attack and damge at level 5, an additional +1 at level 11, and an additional +1 at level 17. Also applies to CMB and CMB checks as per the fighter ability description. (--) - {Replaces ranger favored terrain 1, 2, and 3.}
Find the Mark: i.e. Imrpoved Critical with Swashbuckler weapons (+) {Replaces ranger style feat (3)}
Imrpoved Weapon Focus - Choose one swashbuckler weapon to gain the feat with (.) - {Replaces rangers style feat (4)}
Sting of the Wasp - When wielding a swahbuckler weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this ability before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This ability cannot be used in conjunction with similar abilities such as Power attack or Piranha strike. (.) - {Replaces fighter feat (1)}
Acrobatic Charge - (-) {Replaces barbarian fast movement}
Deflect Arrows - (.) {Replaces fighter feat (2)}
Acrobatic Mastery - (.) {Replaces ranger woodland stride}

So that leaves:
-Rage
-Rage Power
-Bravery
-Track
-Wild Empathy
-Hunter's Bond
-Swift Tracker
-Quarry
but we haven't gotten to any bonus feats, rogue talents, thrust damage, improved reaction, nor a capstone. So, without any real though, perhaps.

Rage - (.) Bonus Feat
Rage Power - (.) Bonus Feat
Bravery - (.) Rogue Talent
Track - (.) Rogue Talent
Wild Empathy - (.) Thrust +1d6
Hunter's Bond - (.) Thrust +2d6
Swift Tracker - (.) Improved Reaction +2
Quarry - (.) Improved Reaction +4

Capstone - Something to just finish it out.

At this point we are at (-----), so let's kick the skills up to 6/level, add Improved Reaction +6, add thrust +3d6, and add an appropriate capstone.

So, let's try to put what we have in some sensible order. While we are at it, let's group bonus feats and rogue talents together into something, let's call them swashbuckler styles for the time being.

I'll propose the following (stealing from everyone who has posted already):

To simplify the discussion, define:
Swashbuckler weapon: any simple or martial, light or one handed, piercing weapon that weapon finesse applies to.

Swashbuckler

Bab: Good.
Saves: Good Fort and Ref/ Poor Will

Class Skills
The Swashbuckler’s class skills are Acrobatic (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

1 - Evade +1, Weapon Finesse
2 - Uncanny Dodge, Nimble Swashbuckler, Swashbuckler Style
3 - Improved Reaction +2, Thrust +1d6
4 - Evade +2, Weapon Focus
5 - Evasion, Weapon Training
6 - Swashbuckler Style
7 - Sting of the Wasp
8 - Find the Mark
9 - Evade +3, Improved Reaction +4
10 - Acrobatic Charge
11 - Improved Weapon Focus, Thrust +2d6
12 - Advanced Swashbuckler Style
13 - Deflect Arrows
14 - Evade +4
15 - Improved Reaction +6
16 - Advanced Swashbuckler Style
17 - Acrobatic Mastery
18 - Advanced Swashbuckler Style
19 - Evade +5, Thrust +3d6
20 - Exceptional Reflexes

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with all simple weapons, swashbuckler weapons, and martial ranged weapons. They are proficient with light armor and the buckler.

Evade - as above.
Weapon Finesse - as the feat.
Uncanny Dodge - as the rogue ability.
Nimble Swashbuckler - at 2nd level the swashbuckler gains the skill focus(acrobatics) feat as a bonus feat.
Swashbuckler Style - at 2nd level, and again as the table specifies, the swashbuckler may choose a combat feat or a rogue talent. A swashbuckler may count his thrust damage as sneak attack damage for the purpose of rogue talents.
Improved Reaction - as above.
Thrust - as above.
Weapon Focus - as the feat, must be a swashbuckler weapon.
Evasion - as the rogue ability.
Weapon Training (Ex): Swashbuckler weapons, as the fighter ability with the following change, +1 attack and damge at level 5, an additional +1 at level 11, and an additional +1 at level 17. Also applies to CMB and CMB checks as per the fighter ability description.
Sting of the Wasp - When wielding a swashbuckler weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this ability before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This ability cannot be used in conjunction with similar abilities such as Power attack or Piranha strike.
Improved Weapon Focus - as the feat, must be a swashbuckler weapon.
Advanced Swashbuckler Style - at 12th level, and again as the table specifies, the swashbuckler may choose a combat feat (treating his level as as fighter's level for this feat only), improved uncanny dodge (as the rogue ability), or a rogue advanced talent. A swashbuckler may count his thrust damage as sneak attack damage for the purpose of rogue talents.
Exceptional Reflexes: The swashbuckler's sense of danger and reflexes have become honed to a hair trigger. The swashbuckler always acts first in combat, and may make full actions in the surprise round. If two or more swashbucklers are in combat together, they roll initiative normally to determine which of them go first between them. [mdt, this is a nice ability, all credit goes to you.] I would be tempted to bump this up to a full action and a pounce-like ability in the surprise round. Something like, A swashbuckler can always act in the surprise round. During the surprise round, he is treated as having the pounce ability.

A note for Kavalas, and a philosophical question in general.

Spoiler:

I didn't play for a period of 3 or 4 years. During that time, I thought about what I wanted to play the next time I had the opportunity. As it turned out, I had the chance to play online with a group of my high school friends that are scattered about the country (California, Minnesota, Illinois, South Dakota, Montana). I worked with my DM to try to actualize the character I had been thinking about for years. It took 2 levels of one class, 3 of another, 2 of another, 3 of a tweaked PrC, and 10 of a custom PrC. Now, I laid out my concept to the DM before the first time we rolled any dice. The philosophical question is, does that make my character less worthy of a capstone ability? Or, does the fact that I had a definite plan mean that the rules simply don't cover every possibility? I had thought out a plan that covered 20 levels. If there was a 'my perfect class' written, I would have taken it, but alas, there wasn't. In this case, yes, the OP and I both think uncanny dodge and evasion are reasonable for the character. I think I did a fairly good job at balancing abilities against the core classes, as has the OP. The philosophical question being, since it is clearly possible to get evasion and uncanny dodge via core, is there any reason to argue against a custom class that has both if it fits a reasonable concept? I'm seriously curious. I understand your point, but since we have the pleasure of playing a table top RPG with real people, isn't that what it is all about? I think it is. Perhaps this is a discussion best moved to a different forum, but it is what it is. I mean no disrespect, and I do agree with you that one should be careful when designing such a class, but I don't think that the two together are an automatic 3/4 Bab, just a warning to be very careful.


Kexle wrote:

I propose the correct way to try balance this class is against the core classes, in this case, Ranger 16/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2. I'm not sure what this will turn out like, but here are my thoughts as I discover them myself. A way too long, but reasonably thorough comparison is included. Kavalas, please look at the spoiler and then read the postscript.

Here's where I wish I knew more about the inter-workings that Paizo's staff uses to create character classes. I'm sure there's a point value system involved. I can only compare it to other classes I've seen in the books. Balancing a class is a hard thing. I haven't tried to make a class myself, though I have adapted 3.5 classes to pathfinder.

As for capstones, multi-classing and getting all the class abilities you want, yes. You can multi-class and get the abilities you want, but it precludes you from getting your capstone, and usually some of the more powerful high level abilities, as well as pushing back some of the really good ones. I believe that the Pathfinder classes were designed this way. They don't have every ability you want to get in a character class, yet have great benefits if you stick it out till the end.

I see the Swashbuckler class (without modifications) as having everything you want and more out of multiple classes stuck together in one class, and if they even thought to balance it they erred on the powerhouse side.

I still believe that you must balance the class against a single character classes abilities, not multiple character classes. I see the Swashbuckler class as not following the format of other classes at all. It's lack of really good abilities at higher levels (excluding find the mark and improved mark which is simply broken) and the fact that it gives the exclusive abilities of multiple different classes make it unbalanced.

When you rewrite this class to balance it, I feel you need to take away some of the exclusive class abilities of other classes as well as adding some exclusive abilities of its own (especially higher level ones).


I am fairly certain Paizo has no point based system for building classes.


Much better now!

I would like to suggest some things:

Nimble Swashbuckler could be gained at 1st level, It's not a powerful ability.

If its not unbalanced, I would trade Weapon focus and Improved Weapon Focus by this:

Finesse Focus: At 4th level, a swashbuckler receives weapon focus feat as a bonus feat, but he applies the benefit on all piercing melee weapons that is covered under the weapon finesse feat.

Improved Finesse Focus: At 11th level, a swashbuckler receives improved weapon focus feat as a bonus feat, but he applies the benefit on all piercing melee weapons that is covered under the weapon finesse feat.

What do you think?


One more try:

Swashbuckler

Bab: Good.
Saves: Good Fort and Ref/ Poor Will

Class Skills
The Swashbuckler’s class skills are Acrobatic (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

1 - Canny Defense, Weapon Finesse
2 - Precise Strike +1d6
3 - Bonus Feat
4 - Evasion
5 - Improved Reaction +2, Improved Flanking
6 - Precise Strike +2d6, Uncanny Dodge
7 - Acrobatic Charge, Bonus Feat
8 - Find the Mark
9 - Bonus Feat
10 - Improved Reaction +4, Precise Strike +3d6
11 - Bonus Feat
12 - Improved Uncanny Dodge
13 - Deflect Arrows
14 - Precise Strike +4d6
15 - Bonus Feat, Improved Reaction +6
16 - Improved Evasion
17 - Acrobatic Mastery
18 - Precise Strike +5d6
19 - Bonus Feat
20 - Exceptional Reflexes

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are proficient with light armor and the buckler.

Canny Defense (Ex): At 1st level, when wearing light armor or no armor and not using a shield (except for a buckler), a swashbuckler adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per swashbuckler class level to his Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a swashbuckler is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus.

Weapon Finesse (Ex): While proficient in all martial weapons, dexterous swashbucklers are particularly effective with light weapons. At 1st level, a swashbuckler gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Precise Strike (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one handed piercing weapon, dealing extra damage. When making a precise strike, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in his other hand or use a shield. He may use it whenever his opponent is denied her dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not) or when he flanks his opponent. This extra damage is indicated on the swashbuckler’s table. A swashbuckler’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike. Should the swashbuckler score a critical hit with precise strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. This ability functions as the rogue’s sneak attack for the purpose to qualify for feats and rogue talents.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a swashbuckler gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats. A swashbuckler can also select a Rogue Talent instead of a Combat Feat. He treats his swashbuckler levels as rogue levels for the purpose of qualifying for Rogue Talents.

Evasion (Ex): The swashbuckler is adept at avoiding unusual attacks. Starting at 4th level, if he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can only be used if the swashbuckler is wearing light or no armor. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Flanking (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler who is flanking an opponent gains +4 bonus on attacks instead of +2 while using any light or one-handed piercing weapon that is covered under the weapon finesse feat. Other characters flanking with the swashbuckler don’t gain this increased bonus.

Improved Reaction (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains +2 on initiative checks. At 10th level, the bonus increases to +4 and the swashbuckler can always take 10 on initiative checks. At 15th level, the bonus increases to +6. This bonus stacks with the benefit provided by the Improved Initiative feat.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a swashbuckler can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his dexterity bonus to Ac if immobilized. A swashbuckler with this ability can still lose his dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against him. If a swashbuckler already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, he may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

Find the Mark (Ex): At 8th level, the swashbuckler gains Improved Critical feat while using any light or one-handed piercing weapon that is covered under the weapon finesse feat.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 12th level and higher, a swashbuckler can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the swashbuckler by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has swashbuckler levels.

Deflect Arrows (Ex): At 13th level, the swashbuckler may use any light or one-handed piercing weapon that is covered under the weapon finesse feat to deflect ranged attacks. This ability functions exactly as the feat of the same name, except that the swashbuckler uses a weapon instead of his bare hands.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 16th level, a swashbuckler gains improved evasion. This works like evasion, except that while the swashbuckler still takes no damage on a successful reflex saving throw against attacks, he henceforth takes only half damage on failed save. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of this ability.

Acrobatic Skill Mastery (Ex): At 17th level, a swashbuckler becomes so certain in the use of his acrobatic skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making acrobatic checks, a swashbuckler may take 10 even if stress and distraction would normally prevent him from doing so.

Exceptional Reflexes (Ex): At 20th level, the swashbuckler’s sense of danger and reflexes becomes honed to a hair trigger. The swashbuckler always acts first in combat, and may make full actions in the surprise round. If two or more swashbuckler with this ability is in combat, they roll initiative normally to determine which of them acts first between them. Also, while wielding a melee weapon, he keeps his Canny Defense bonus in the surprise rounds.

I'm thinking about transform the others class features of the Duelist prestige class into swashbuckler's unique feats. With this version of the class I tried to clean it up (there was to many abilities) and make a decent substitute for the duelist. Waiting for opinions.

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