I have read a lot of post. I will try to explain this and shut it down.
You only take the TWF penalties when it is your turn. AoO's will not suffer from it. <----My stance.
The attack of opportunity section clearly calls out your normal attack bonus, and TWF is not a normal attack.
TWF says "when fighting this way". Once your turn is over you are no longer fighting that way*. To take it further TWF'ing is a full attack attack, and any penalties or bonus you take from an action end when that action ends unless otherwise stated. As an example if you cast a metamagic spell as a sorcerer the spell begins and ends on your turn. Summoning spells don't go off until the beginning of the next round, and therefore last beyond your turn because there is a specific rule that says so. TWF has no specific rule that does that unlike the power attack feat which says the penalties last until the beginning of your next turn.
Power Attack (Combat)
.......... When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
*Even if you somehow get an AoO while TWF'ing the AoO clause that says you get to make it at your normal attack bonus means you get to do just that even if you have already attacked, and TWF has no language to counter that. With TWF being a special attack it definitely does not count as a normal attack.
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
More rules calling out a full round action as different than something intended to take an entire round.
Casting a Metamagic Spell: Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time.
I almost forget:
In short I have seen no rules quote that extends the full attack action(to include TWF) itself or any penalties/bonuses past anyone's turn like power attack or the summoning spell does. If that were a general rule then power attack and summoning spells would not need the clauses they have.
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An attack of opportunity is not made when making a full attack. Any penalty that applies only to a full attack has nothing to do with an AoO.
Vicious Stomp (Combat)
You take advantage of the moment to brutally kick an enemy when he is down.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.Successful trip, AoO in the middle of the full attack.
If the monk don't count as TWF he get the 3/4 BAB.
That's how I play it. If I choose to substitute a trip maneuver for one of my flurry of blows, Vicious Stomp at least allows me to dish out a little pain. But that comes at my regular 3/4 BAB, not at whatever point I am at in the iterative flurry progression.
Monks use their level in place of their BAB for trip and other maneuvers, after 3rd level. The only time they would use their Average BAB for Vicious Stomp is if they take it before 3rd level.
They're talking about the attack of opportunity granted by vicious stomp, which must be an unarmed strike.
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but what happens if you have TWF, Combat Reflexes and you have two enemies that move away from you. You decide to AoO with your main hand and then AoO with your offhand.
Why would you suddenly not have any penalties even though you are still using both weapons?
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but what happens if you have TWF, Combat Reflexes and you have two enemies that move away from you. You decide to AoO with your main hand and then AoO with your offhand.
Why would you suddenly not have any penalties even though you are still using both weapons?
Because both enemies wouldn't move away from you at the same time.
Example:
Round whatever:
Initiative 15 Enemy 1 Turn: They move away.
You get one AoO, you take it with your mainhand.
Initiative 12 Enemy 2 Turn: They move away.
You get one AoO, you decide to take it with your offhand.
Initiative 5 Your Turn: Now you get to act.
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but what happens if you have TWF, Combat Reflexes and you have two enemies that move away from you. You decide to AoO with your main hand and then AoO with your offhand.
Why would you suddenly not have any penalties even though you are still using both weapons?
TWF penalties don't apply because you use two weapons. They apply when you use the TWF combat style which requires a full round attack.
TWF penalties apply only when you make TWF attacks. Attacks of Opportunity are not part of that, nor are quickened spells. Natural attacks have their own rules between primary and secondary attacks.
Vindication!
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but what happens if you have TWF, Combat Reflexes and you have two enemies that move away from you. You decide to AoO with your main hand and then AoO with your offhand.
Why would you suddenly not have any penalties even though you are still using both weapons?
Because both enemies wouldn't move away from you at the same time.
Example:
Round whatever:
Initiative 15 Enemy 1 Turn: They move away.
You get one AoO, you take it with your mainhand.
Initiative 12 Enemy 2 Turn: They move away.
You get one AoO, you decide to take it with your offhand.
Initiative 5 Your Turn: Now you get to act.
And also because fighting with two weapons and TWF are not the same thing.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but what happens if you have TWF, Combat Reflexes and you have two enemies that move away from you. You decide to AoO with your main hand and then AoO with your offhand.
Why would you suddenly not have any penalties even though you are still using both weapons?
You don't have an off hand in Pathfinder like we do in real life. Any hand is a primary attack unless you are Two Weapon Fighting. As established a 6th level Fighter that attacks with a weapon in his right hand, then a weapon in his left hand, still attacks as primary weapons.
Every AoO is its own special action. There is no 'extra attack' penalty associated with it.
TWF penalties apply only when you make TWF attacks. Attacks of Opportunity are not part of that, nor are quickened spells. Natural attacks have their own rules between primary and secondary attacks.Vindication!
Reiteration!
James Jacobs isn't the rules guy :P
P.S. I <3 JJ (platonic of course)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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TWF penalties apply only when you make TWF attacks. Attacks of Opportunity are not part of that, nor are quickened spells. Natural attacks have their own rules between primary and secondary attacks.Vindication!
Reiteration!
James Jacobs isn't the rules guy :P
P.S. I <3 JJ (platonic of course)
Even so, when Paizo staff says that a Core mechanic is supposed to work exactly the way a number of people have been giving very specific and well-reasoned arguments that it works, you'd have to have a pretty big head (no offense to your avatar) to still insist on it working differently.
TWF penalties apply only when you make TWF attacks. Attacks of Opportunity are not part of that, nor are quickened spells. Natural attacks have their own rules between primary and secondary attacks.Vindication!
Reiteration!
James Jacobs isn't the rules guy :P
P.S. I <3 JJ (platonic of course)
He is not the rules guy but what he said supports the points made in my last post which have yet to be disproven.
He is not the rules guy but what he said supports the points made in my last post which have yet to be disproven.
Cibulan was making a joke, because in the very post we're discussing, James was saying how his posts are frequently discounted because he's "not the rules guy" when someone disagrees with him.
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his full response acknowledges that he's not the rules guy.
( which i think may be getting to be a sore point because people say it so much )
First of... sometimes I feel that replies of "JJ is not the rule guy" are just another way of saying "JJ doesn't support my interpretation of the rules and therefore his input would only damage my argument and stance and therefore I discredit his input" ... despite the fact that I've actually done quite a lot of rules design over the past 10 to 15 years or so, and despite the fact that as much as I enjoy rules design, I much prefer rules to exist ONLY to help tell stories. I try not to let it bother me... but it does at times.Now... on to the question at hand.
If you make a full attack, and you "resolve" your situation after that first attack in your sequence (say, that first attack drops the foe)... only a hard-ass GM who's probably never played the game on the other side of the screen would say that you can't stop and do something other than complete your attack... even if you HAD done a flurry of blows. I mean... think it through. The difference between making 1 attack and moving and making only the 1st attack of a flurry of blows and then moving is that you may have made that one attack at a penalty to your roll. That's hardly unbalanced, in my book. Manyshot, on the other hand... that's a different story. In my book... as long as your attack was something that was a net "LESS" than a standard attack... I'm okay with letting a character move after that. Manyshot is hardly "LESS."
What I'm saying is that it's a case-by-case basis. GMs need and should be able to make those decisions without paralyzing the game by worrying about what the rules want.
TWF penalties apply only when you make TWF attacks. Attacks of Opportunity are not part of that, nor are quickened spells. Natural attacks have their own rules between primary and secondary attacks.
But... as they say, JJ isn't the rules guy, so...
So yes, it does validate some people's points. However its not as substantive as an FAQ entry or being addressed by someone on staff that is considered "a rules guy".