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If I have an intelligent item, an intelligent Helm of Brilliance for example, can the intelligent helm activate the helm's powers on its own, or can it only cast/activate its intelligent item powers?
The rules state, "Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner."
I think the statement, "intelligent items can activate their own powers..." is pretty self explanatory, but there is some disagreement in our group about the rules regarding this. My take is that, the item can use all of the helm's abilities in addition to any other specific spells the item may have. My friend thinks that the statement, "intelligent items can activate their own powers..." refers only to the spells / powers under the Intelligent Item Powers Table.
It would be helpful to know what the general consensus is in this?
I agree with your interpretation, at least in the context of a Helm of Brilliance. I suspect there are corner cases, though; for instance, some magic items specify that something needs to be thrown (e.g. Necklace of Fireballs, Bag of Tricks) which an inanimate object is incapable of doing.
I concur. All powers of the base item should be at the disposal of
the item's intelligence.
But the real question is: does the item want to activate itself?
VRMH wrote: I concur. All powers of the base item should be at the disposal of
the item's intelligence.
But the real question is: does the item want to activate itself?
But would you allow a player to design a magic item using table 15-29 of the CRB, then add intelligence for additional cost 500 GP and then permit that intelligent item the ability to "activate" any of the command word activated spell effects?
For example, if you created a wondrous item that allowed the wearer to command word activate deadly juggernaut once per day. Slap on intelligence for 500 gp and now the object is activating a 3rd level spell on it's own.
Sparky Magoo wrote: But would you allow a player to design a magic item using table 15-29 of the CRB, then add intelligence for additional cost 500 GP and then permit that intelligent item the ability to "activate" any of the command word activated spell effects?
For example, if you created a wondrous item that allowed the wearer to command word activate deadly juggernaut once per day. Slap on intelligence for 500 gp and now the object is activating a 3rd level spell on it's own.
If you're arguing that the price for an intelligent weapon is too low, I'll agree with you. During the Pathfinder Beta playtest, I made an example character with an intelligent staff and that seemed a little too useful.
The spell Deadly Juggernaut is an odd example, considering it has Personal range; an inanimate object wouldn't really benefit from using that spell on itself, would it? Not to mention that objects are immune to most necromancy effects.
I think the argument is that one of the command word activated powers of the item is Deadly Juggernaut, which the wearer can activate with a command word. This is NOT a spell that item can cast. Can the item activate this power? I believe the item can activate the power.
Kal-El wrote: I think the argument is that one of the command word activated powers of the item is Deadly Juggernaut, which the wearer can activate with a command word. This is NOT a spell that item can cast. Can the item activate this power? I believe the item can activate the power. Fair enough. My point is that, yes, creating custom intelligent magic items is sometimes too cheap for what you get.
hogarth wrote: Sparky Magoo wrote: But would you allow a player to design a magic item using table 15-29 of the CRB, then add intelligence for additional cost 500 GP and then permit that intelligent item the ability to "activate" any of the command word activated spell effects?
For example, if you created a wondrous item that allowed the wearer to command word activate deadly juggernaut once per day. Slap on intelligence for 500 gp and now the object is activating a 3rd level spell on it's own.
If you're arguing that the price for an intelligent weapon is too low, I'll agree with you. During the Pathfinder Beta playtest, I made an example character with an intelligent staff and that seemed a little too useful.
The spell Deadly Juggernaut is an odd example, considering it has Personal range; an inanimate object wouldn't really benefit from using that spell on itself, would it? Not to mention that objects are immune to most necromancy effects. Okay, how about see invisibility? Would you allow a wondrous item that allowed the wearer to command-word activate see invisibility 3 times a day, which was also made intelligent for 500 gp...allowing the intelligence to activate a 2nd level spell with a 10 int and without paying for the ability to cast 2nd level spells as per chart 15-24 CRB or a high enough intelligence to cast 2nd-level spells?
Doesn't seem like Kal-El is attempted to avoid the costs associated with intelligent items being able to cast spells? By making the item on 15-29 of the CRB, he avoids the costs on 15-24 for spell casting and 15-22 for minimum intelligence for casting a particular spell level.
hogarth wrote: Kal-El wrote: I think the argument is that one of the command word activated powers of the item is Deadly Juggernaut, which the wearer can activate with a command word. This is NOT a spell that item can cast. Can the item activate this power? I believe the item can activate the power. Fair enough. My point is that, yes, creating custom intelligent magic items is sometimes too cheap for what you get. I completely disagree with this. A range of personal can't be more clear. If you don't want it to cast on itself, don't make it a person (construct).
Somehow I get the idea that this isn't a hypothetical example at all. :-)
I agree that having an intelligent magic item of an item that produces a spell-like effect is kinda sorta like having a quickened version of that spell for cheap. But as I said, I think that's a problem with the intelligent item costs being too cheap, in general.
hogarth wrote: Somehow I get the idea that this isn't a hypothetical example at all. :-)
I agree that having an intelligent magic item of an item that produces a spell-like effect is kinda sorta like having a quickened version of that spell for cheap. But as I said, I think that's a problem with the intelligent item costs being too cheap, in general.
LOL. There are too many omissions in how intelligent items are created. And if you ignore everything it's missing, then yes it's way too cheap to make intelligent items. But I can't ignore the omissions.
And yes Kal-El and I know each other.
OK - so let's give the actual example.
I would like to have an intelligent item made with the following abilities:
Shield 3/day CL1
Protection from Evil 3/day CL1
See Invisibility 1/day CL 3
Deadly Juggernaut 1/day CL 5
Now the issue is that the party spell caster (a mystic theurge) cannot bestow spell casting abilities upon others (restriction due to deity). So adding these abilities as spell casting abilities to the intelligent item is out. The solution is to add these abilities as command word activated powers to the base item. The intelligent item abilities will be:
Senses (120 ft)
Telepathy
Darkvision
Speech (assuming this will be needed to activate its own powers, otherwise, not needed)
5 ranks in a skill.
First question, can the item activate these powers?
Second question, should the item have ability scores high enough to cast 3rd level spells or is this not needed, since these abilities are command word activated?
Third question, by RAW, how much will this item cost? Please do not mention GM fiat or the fact that intelligent items are too inexpensive as is. I'm not arguing these points and actually agree that they are inexpensive and the GM can price them at whatever he feels like.
Kal-El wrote: OK - so let's give the actual example.
I would like to have an intelligent item made with the following abilities:
Shield 3/day CL1
Deadly Juggernaut 1/day CL 5
I still say that shield and deadly juggernaut have a range of personal. If you allow an intelligent object to cast a spell with a range of personal on someone else, you are allowing it do something that no caster in the game can do. Range of personal equals the caster. Not the BFF of the caster wearing him around his neck. If I cast reduce person on myself and enlarge person on you...and you tie me around your next...when I cast shield, it will still only be on me.
If you allow an intelligent object to cast a spell with a range of personal on someone else, you are allowing it do something that no caster in the game can do.
This doesn't bother me. Magic items do all sorts of things no caster can do (short of wish and friends).
Kal-El wrote: I would like to have an intelligent item made with the following abilities:
Shield 3/day CL1
Protection from Evil 3/day CL1
See Invisibility 1/day CL 3
Deadly Juggernaut 1/day CL 5
First question, can the item activate these powers?
Absolutely, although it's not totally clear how Personal range spells work (as noted).
Kal-El wrote: Second question, should the item have ability scores high enough to cast 3rd level spells or is this not needed, since these abilities are command word activated? The item doesn't need any particular ability scores; it's activating a magic item, not casting a spell.
Kal-El wrote: Third question, by RAW, how much will this item cost? Please do not mention GM fiat or the fact that intelligent items are too inexpensive as is. I'm not arguing these points and actually agree that they are inexpensive and the GM can price them at whatever he feels like. This is a bit more tricky. Note, for instance, that pricing the Shield ability is supposed to be based off of the AC bonus it gives you (+4 AC bonus = 16,000 gp), not off of the Shield spell. Also, most (all?) magic items tend to have one caster level for all abilities, not 3 different caster levels.
So assuming the item is made with a CL of 5:
2000 * 5 * 1 * 3/5 * 1.5 = 9000 gp
2000 * 5 * 2 * 1/5 * 1.5 = 6000 gp
2000 * 5 * 3 * 1/5 * 1.5 = 9000 gp
Adding 9600 gp for +4 AC (3/day), the total is 33,600 gp (not including the intelligent weapon cost).
hogarth wrote:
Adding 9600 gp for +4 AC (3/day)...
How did you calculate this?
Thanks.
Sparky Magoo wrote: hogarth wrote:
Adding 9600 gp for +4 AC (3/day)...
How did you calculate this?
Thanks. 16000 (+4 AC bonus) * 3/5 (3/day) = 9600
The problem is that there isn't really an item in the core rulebook that works quite like this (most AC items give a continuous bonus), so there's some guesswork involved.
I believe I am in your camp. Is the power listed in the item's description? Yes, will then it can use it. The item will defend itself/you the best way it can if it thinks you are not acting appropriately or against the items design.
I am about to add a intelligent item into my game and will make the necessary Ego/personality conflict rolls but I am not going to have the item start firing off its abilities as it is a subdued item. Say it is a short sword with a Napoleon complex I might.
SGH
Appreciate everyone's feedback. Thank you.
hogarth wrote: Sparky Magoo wrote: hogarth wrote:
Adding 9600 gp for +4 AC (3/day)...
How did you calculate this?
Thanks. 16000 (+4 AC bonus) * 3/5 (3/day) = 9600
The problem is that there isn't really an item in the core rulebook that works quite like this (most AC items give a continuous bonus), so there's some guesswork involved. Brooch of Shielding provides the Shield effect without AC bonus. I see no reason why you couldn't have shield as a normal spell effect. The AC bonus rule is (at least to my understanding) meant for continuous AC bonuses.
Just make sure the player buying the item understands that the Shield is exactly as Shield spell - especially the duration, which would be 1 minute for level on caster.
Oh, and I see no reason why ALL the spells should be priced according to CL 5. They could have been added separately from the lowest to the highest - and as such, be cheaper. Thus:
Correct multiplier is 1,800 for command-activated spells.
1,800 x 1 x 1 x 3/5 = 1,080 gp for Shield
1,800 x 1 x 1 x 3/5 = 1,080 gp for Protection from Evil
1,800 x 3 x 2 x 1/5 = 2,160 gp for See Invisibility
1,800 x 5 x 3 x 1/5 = 5,400 gp for Deadly Juggernaut
Multiple different abilities:
(1,080 + 1,080 + 2,160) x 1.5 = 6,480 gp
Add most expensive:
6,480 + 5,400 = 11,880 gp for the spells.
Intelligent item traits (5,500 gp):
Base: 500 gp
Telepathy: 1,000 gp
Senses (120 ft.): 1,000 gp
Darkvision: 500 gp
5 pts of skills: 2,500 gp
Total item creation cost: 17,380 gp
Double the cost if the item does not fill a slot on the body.
Speech is not needed for an intelligent item to activate its own "spell-like" abilities.
Also remember that item creation cost is usually only half of the market value of the item.
Kim Hokkanen wrote: Brooch of Shielding provides the Shield effect without AC bonus. I see no reason why you couldn't have shield as a normal spell effect. The AC bonus rule is (at least to my understanding) meant for continuous AC bonuses. Do you know of an example of an item that gives an AC bonus N times per day? I'd be glad to revise my estimate if there's an example to the contrary. The usual example of AC bonus pricing that I see tossed around is an item of Mage Armor vs. Bracers of Armor +4.
Kim Hokkanen wrote: Oh, and I see no reason why ALL the spells should be priced according to CL 5. Again, can you find an example of an item that works that way? There certainly might be such an item; that's why I said "most" instead of "all".
hogarth wrote:
Do you know of an example of an item that gives an AC bonus N times per day?
I think part of creating unique items is having something that doesn't exist in the game. In any event, I don't have a problem with a wondrous item that cast shield and/or mage armor on the wearer x-number of times a day.
We use the command word activation formula on 15-29:
spell level x caster level x 1800 divided by (5 divided by charges per day)
For example Shield with a 5 minute duration usable 3 times per day
1 x 5 x 1800 x 3/5= 5400
@hogarth, you're talking about a permanent/use activated shield spell applied to an item.
You are still able to make an item that activates a Shield spell per the normal costs.
hogarth wrote: Do you know of an example of an item that gives an AC bonus N times per day? I'd be glad to revise my estimate if there's an example to the contrary. The usual example of AC bonus pricing that I see tossed around is an item of Mage Armor vs. Bracers of Armor +4. No, of course I don't. That doesn't mean there could not be such an item. As a non-continuous spell effect I don't see any reason why it should be disallowed, especially considering the use per day restriction. Even without the use restriction Shield is a minor inconvenience to higher-level opponents.
hogarth wrote: Again, can you find an example of an item that works that way? There certainly might be such an item; that's why I said "most" instead of "all". No to this one. In fact I have trouble finding any items that give multiple spell abilities beyond staves. And as the staves can use the caster's level those are pretty much the optimal case where the lower caster level when creating the staff is useful. Haven't checked the creation costs to see if there's an actual benefit, though.
There are also spells that do not benefit at all from higher caster levels (beyond ranges, durations, possible save DC's and SR checks). Magic Missile is a good example of this. After CL 9 there really is no point to pay more for it (unless you want to be able to fire the missiles as far as you can see on an empty field). Almost all cantrips also fall into this category.
Kim Hokkanen wrote: hogarth wrote: Again, can you find an example of an item that works that way? There certainly might be such an item; that's why I said "most" instead of "all". No to this one. In fact I have trouble finding any items that give multiple spell abilities beyond staves.
And the ones that do exist (e.g. hand of glory, orb of storms, helm of brilliance) basically just have prices plucked out of mid-air anyways. :-/
Such are the hazards of trying to price custom items...
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