Let me just say this first: Thank you for your useful suggestions in advanced in the event I forget to thank anyone.
Alright so I have been involved in table top RPGs for a long time now for almost 15 years now not bad for someone as young as I.
I am currently going to be starting a game with plenty of new players basicly 4 person group including I, excluding the GM. The party is as fallows:
Aasmier Sorcerer (draconic) plans to head into Dragon Disciple (gold) with some possible melee thrown in.
Human Fighter up close and personal sword and board.
Halfling Rouge sneaky flanker with decent trapfinding at best.
And me the undecided... you see I don't really want to play an Orical, Druid, or Cleric to fill our obvious lack of a healer. Not that I have anything against those classes. While I resist the urge to double up for risk of out shining or removing the feeling they are contributing to the party in a major way.
So my solution is to fill in with bard its got enough going on. But I want to stray away from run of the mill bard and pick up an archetype. Here is the thing which one helps the most.
Arcane Duelist- run the risk of stepping on the fighters toes though I can make him ranged and be a good support to most. Wands and somespells will help fill in the healing gap and buff spells will fill the rest.
Magician- spell wielding bard may have some thing to offer here the extra spells added to list and the wand mastery will help things out for the healing and missing spells add in some buffs, may make for a well rounded party.
Dervish- While I like the flavor of this class and the cool factor. I feel this may step on miss "hit you with my hammer"'s toes and while another melee combatant is useful for the most part I am hesitant to use it.
As you can see I have done some thinking on my own. I am looking for other suggestions and advice on my current stands. What do you think this party needs.
Thank you again
You seem to have plenty melee but little ranged, since the sorcerer is going the melee route, right?
Imho going ranged might be nice.
Arcane Duelist: be aware that the bladethirst cannot be used at the same time as the inspiring songs. And Mass Bladethirst is 18th level... also many extras from that ACF are melee focussed, making it sub-optimal for ranged combat unless you want to go switch-hitter
(but I gathered bards aren't good at switch-hitting... ?)
Magician: he replaces inspire courage with Dweomercraft, again you loose a big buff, and you said you wanted to buff to lessen the need of healing?
Dervish: could be nice if you want to go melee (is there a ranged option for that one?)
You might want to have a look at
Songhealer: if you want to boost your healing abilities
Sound Striker: if you want to be more active when fighting and focus on ranged combat. Wordstrike replaces inspire competence, so you get to keep inspire courage
(you might want to check if Wordstrike ignores all resistances, afaik it should, it's untyped damage, also check if you can use it to sunder your enemy's armor/weapon/shield)
Animal Speaker: if you know your campaign will take place in the wilderness, you can replace rangers/druids, again it's inspire competence that get's replaced. This is very far from your stereotype bard, imho. Maybe get the Leadership feat to gain a false animal companion? (idea worth mentioning to your DM?) Otherwise you can take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to gain Arcane Bond and choose a familiar, that could be a good alternative and you can try to set your familiar to wand-healing duty? :-p
Imho if you really want to be about boosting your companions it's a bad idea to give up inspire courage
but if you don't care about that, Magician could be nice.
Bardcher seems like an obvious choice, but as to the arcane duelist you can bladethirst while using other songs. There are 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells to give you a second performance during combat.
In any event, if you really want to melee you may want to check out the whip. It's extremely versatile.
I am fine with ranged just not sure which archetype would be best for that either. Animal speaker is out really not digging it for this play through and if I wanted to do that I would just go pack lord druid but they seem like a trap to me.
There are 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells to give you a second performance during combat.
I guess you are referring to:
You create a phantom instrument, a glowing construct of magic in the form of a portable musical instrument of your choice. The instrument floats beside you, moving as you move (even if you teleport). It cannot be damaged, but can be dispelled. The instrument plays as you direct, and as long as it plays, you do not have to expend rounds of bardic performance from your daily allotment to maintain an effect. Activating a bardic performance or switching to a new effect still costs a round of your overall bardic performances per day.
This does not allow you to have multiple performances imho, otherwise Virtuoso Performance would be worse in every way?
While this spell is active, you may start a second bardic performance while maintaining another. Starting the second performance costs 2 rounds of bardic performance instead of 1. Maintaining both performances costs a total of 3 rounds of bardic performance for each round they are maintained. When this spell ends, one of the performances ends immediately (your choice).
Virtuoso performance does not stack with any other method of maintaining simultaneous bardic performances.
You only get this spell at level 10... which is kinda far if they start playing at level 1.
Is there another 3rd level spell that allows simultaneous performs?
I am fine with ranged just not sure which archetype would be best for that either. Animal speaker is out really not digging it for this play through and if I wanted to do that I would just go pack lord druid but they seem like a trap to me.
Arcane Duelist actually fits quite well for an archer bard, since Bladethirst isn't limited to melee weapons. Arcane Strike, which you get as a bonus feat on level 1, is also an excellent feat for a bard archer, in many ways superior to Deadly Aim since you don't take a penalty to your to hit.
the only thing that's rather useless to an archer Arcane Duelist:
Bonus Feats: An arcane duelist weaves might and magic in his combat style, gaining the following bonus feats at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter: 2nd level—Combat Casting, 6th level—Disruptive, 10th level—Spellbreaker, 14th level—Penetrating Strike, 18th level—Greater Penetrating Strike. This ability replaces versatile performance and well-versed.
So you loose two things you might consider nice to have, for nothing.
Arcane Strike you could pick up anyways as a feat.
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I am fine with ranged just not sure which archetype would be best for that either. Animal speaker is out really not digging it for this play through and if I wanted to do that I would just go pack lord druid but they seem like a trap to me.
Well, the thing is, normal Bard is pretty close to perfect for an archer Bard. So what you really want, if what you want is to depart from the norm, is an Archetype that's relatively low impact mechanically. So, here's a few of thos:
Depending on thematics, Savage Skald and (if you're willing to forego Versatile Performance, which I wouldn't be) Sea Singer or Songhealer would all make sense.
As a more high-impact alternative, an Archivist Bard can be very useful indeed, and a skilled archer (if you wish) as well as shoring up the party's relative lack of Knowledge skills (not that you can't do that as a normal Bard, but you can focus on it more as an Archivist).
I'll also second Arcane Duelist as not worth it for an archer.
Arcane Duelist actually fits quite well for an acher bard, since Bladethirst isn't limited to melee weapons. Arcane Strike, which you get as a bonus feat on level 1, is also an excellent feat for a bard archer, in many ways superior to Deadly Aim since you don't take a penalty to your to hit.
I agree. I even though it seems that it would lean towards the melee side at no point does it state it has to be. An interesting tie bit this reminds me of the fact that the duelist's abilities can be used with range aside from uncanny defence which you would use while switch hitting if you ask me. Unfortunately you have to use a pistol to get the abilities to apply. Anyway back on topic.
How come you can't use bladethirst while inspiring courage because they are both performances?
Can some one clear that up. This will be my first pathfinder bard. In truth my first bard ingeneral. They always seemed so harsh to use... you either had to use an instrument taking up your hands or use some verbal means and singing in combat seemed a little silly to me. And I did understand the allocation of insults how can someone keep insulting through an entire combat or do you need only to make them on your turn?
How come you can't use bladethirst while inspiring courage because they are both performances?
Can some one clear that up. This will be my first pathfinder bard. In truth my first bard ingeneral. They always seemed so harsh to use... you either had to use an instrument taking up your hands or use some verbal means and singing in combat seemed a little silly to me. And I did understand the allocation of insults how can someone keep insulting through an entire combat or do you need only to make them on your turn?
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
Since Bladethirst is considered a performance, you cannot have bladethirst and inspire courage running at the same time unless you used the spells posted above.
If you really insist on being a "ranged" arcane duelist I'd really suggest whip and get the feats to threaten with it. Ranged arcane duelists are not unplayable, but you give up stuff and don't get anything in return, and the main reason to take the arcane duelist instead of some other ACF only get's it's use at level 10, when you can run 2 performances at the same time because of that spell.
Aasmier Sorcerer (draconic) plans to head into Dragon Disciple (gold) with some possible melee thrown in.
Human Fighter up close and personal sword and board.
Halfling Rouge sneaky flanker with decent trapfinding at best.
Since the party is very front heavy and lacks healing abilities I think that Kyoni's suggestion of Songhealer is probably the best way to go. You lose Versatile Performance, but on the other hand you have a rogue to help cover those skills.
Deadmanwalking's suggestion of Savage Skald is also a good one, where you get a bunch of abilities that help boost your front heavy party.
Also, you can actually combine the two archetypes, since they don't overlap. The most important thing is to make sure you don't lose Inspire Courage, since it is excellent with such a combat focused party.
Finally, remember that as a bard you don't have to have Charisma as your primary stat. A Cha of 14 is enough to start with, and then it's enough that you boost it with a headband so that you can cast level 6 spells.
Also, you can actually combine the two archetypes, since they don't overlap. The most important thing is to make sure you don't lose Inspire Courage, since it is excellent with such a combat focused party.
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Savage Songhealer could be really nice.:-)
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I agree. I even though it seems that it would lean towards the melee side at no point does it state it has to be.
Oh, it doesn't, but it really hurts an archer.
An interesting tie bit this reminds me of the fact that the duelist's abilities can be used with range aside from uncanny defence which you would use while switch hitting if you ask me.
There's also the Disruptive and Spellbreaker Feats, which are useless to you, and which you give up Versatile Performance (probably the best skill-based ability in the game) for.
How come you can't use bladethirst while inspiring courage because they are both performances?
Yeah, barring a few spells you only get one Performance at a time.
Can some one clear that up. This will be my first pathfinder bard.
Don't use an Archetype then. Seriously. the base Bard is really good, and I highly reccomend trying it out before switching out to a high-impact archetype that sacrifics things that are awesome in play (Versatile Performance being a sterling example), simply because it's hard to judge whether what you're giving up is worth it if you've never had that thing in the first place.
In truth my first bard ingeneral. They always seemed so harsh to use... you either had to use an instrument taking up your hands or use some verbal means and singing in combat seemed a little silly to me.
Okay, some examples of non-instrumental Bardic Performance in action:
An elaborate sword-dance, somehow worked perfectly into the flow of combat (Perform-Dance)
Singing an ancient war-chant hallowed by centuries of tradition (Perform-Sing)
The typical witty banter of a swashbuckler or hero like Spider Man. (Perform-Comedy)
An epic poem, chante rythmically as the battle surges (Perform-Oratory)
Orders and imprecations screamed by a hardened drill sergeant (Also Perform-Oratory)
A brief inspirational speech delivered the round it's activated, but continuing to bolster spirits the rest of the fight, with occasional cries of 'For our Lord!' or 'Remember the Alamo!' thrown in to remind people (Perform-Oratory again, can anyone tell what my favorite Perform is?)
And I did understand the allocation of insults how can someone keep insulting through an entire combat or do you need only to make them on your turn?
Your Performance continues to Inspire throughout the combat, and you must be capable of speech to do it (well, not if it's dancing)...but to what degree it keeps going on thematically is up to you. It doesn't keep you from calling out to your comrades or spellcasting, so it's pretty low-impact.
Finally, remember that as a bard you don't have to have Charisma as your primary stat. A Cha of 14 is enough to start with, and then it's enough that you boost it with a headband so that you can cast level 6 spells.
This is true of an Archer Bard who primarily buffs as opposed to casting spells with Saves. That's a valid Bard build, but not the only one, or even the only archer one. A more Cha focused Bard is both possible and effective.
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Evangalist Archer; it's the bard with the full spellcasting and some level of channeling.
They are quite powerful; and getting tongues "on tap" is great. Dex > Wis > Str (should be as close to 14 as possible for deadly aim) > Chr = Con >>> Int.
I like the glory domain; great spell list, and the 8th level ability with bard song is great. Plus, makes you auto-win diplomacy fights. They also work well with Feathers domain with Boon Companion if you want an animal companion to add to the line
Human
1) PBS, Precise Shot
3) Rapid Shot
5) Deadly Aim (Boon Companion or Sacred Summons are options; the latter for lantern archons if your god is LG)
7) Whatever (Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow)
9) Multishot
Use either lesser braces of archery or Heirloom weapon to get the Longbow proficiency (or just worship a bow-using god).
Okay, some examples of non-instrumental Bardic Performance in action:
An elaborate sword-dance, somehow worked perfectly into the flow of combat (Perform-Dance)
Singing an ancient war-chant hallowed by centuries of tradition (Perform-Sing)
The typical witty banter of a swashbuckler or hero like Spider Man. (Perform-Comedy)
An epic poem, chante rythmically as the battle surges (Perform-Oratory)
Orders and imprecations screamed by a hardened drill sergeant (Also Perform-Oratory)
I like the swashbuckling performance types (melee obviously) where I use a mix of dancing and comedy. But you could turn that into a dagger-throwing build? (Can't help but think of Jarlaxle fighting with Artemis Entreri against some Orcs, where Artemis fist thinks Jarlaxle is doomed and then watches agape how the Orcs get cut into pieces as Jarlaxle drops the comedy. :D )
If you insist on using an ACF I'd suggest Savage Skald even more as you'd be singing war-chants and boasting and goading your comrades in a vikingish fashion?
I like all the points I may have to check out the other archetypes. I just feel that if I am using a bow it odd to dance and chant haha. But I am creative I am sure I will think of something. I may go vanilla bard its not bad and I want to have fun with it. Maybe I can make witty banter with party members as well while I fight like Gimli and Legalos thanks for the advice. I will check this as I look through so feel free to advise more if you think of something. Thank you all again.
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Maybe I can make witty banter with party members as well while I fight like Gimli and Legalos thanks for the advice.
A perfect Perform (Comedy) example. :)
I will check this as I look through so feel free to advise more if you think of something. Thank you all again.
You're very welcome. I, at least, am always happy to help. :)
I am currently playing a vanilla bard in Jade Regent. The versatility is amazing, and the array of buffs and skills has made it so I have an option in any situation I have been in so far.
I was looking at archetypes pre-play, but really, they demand so many good things to give comparatively little back.
And you can become rather good without specializing. I have arcane strike and power attack, so I am pretty decent in both melee and ranged combat after the basic buffs are laid out. Arcane Duelist could have made me a LITTLE better, but I love Versatile Performance.