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Gah... You guys are making me want the APG so bad... I hate you all!
I looked at the PFSRD Archer and he does look cool...
I have a laser printer and if it really is legal to use the PDF's from Paizo with my name on it, I may order the APG. Maybe tomorrow.
Actually, I'd rather have the hardback and from the big online retail outlet, the APG is only $26.39. That's not bad. The Pathfinder Society Field Guide is only $13.59. Free shipping...
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Annnd... I ordered both the APG and the Field Guide. Just what I needed!
So, I'll be changing this build to the Archer archetype using the SRD for now.
Here's the mini I'm using: http://www.miniature-giant.com/talathlan-elf-ranger-Reaper-Dark-Heaven-Lege nds-DHL-sku-3198-pr-10161.html
Yeah, he's an elf but he's wearing a hood.
By the way, if you add me (username: sharpe or my e-mail: camaro_driver@ HAWT MALE DOT COM ;)) as your referral for that site, we both get equal cash back on every purchase we both make from now till the end of time. Say I buy something for $5; you might get $1 back from my purchase. I always have $5-$10 in my account from people who have added me. And, since I make a lot of purchases, they do too!
Nice! I'm currently playing an archer archetype, level 9 currently. If you want I can give you my feat layout, and item list for you.
Because the archer is the only class capable of doing cmb at range, there are quite a few rule issues to sort out. Some have been, others not so much. Three biggest one is the cmb using your dex instead of str. Since you use a bow, it actually hours off your dex, so that right there makes out more capable for you. Besides they, try to get your CMB high: bab +dex+ expert archer + dusty rose prism ion stone in a wayfinder (+2 cmb/cmd+ you're weapon enhancement + anything else that would add to attack (point blank shot is always added here, because it is only within 30' to use trickshot ability.
Elves of Goldston is an EXCELLENT book for archers. Smoke arrow, bleeding, thistle, pheromone, rain arrow, DURABLE! ---> all from this book. Can't tell you how awesome it was to fire off a few smoke arrows at enemies and the exit, so we could get away. Our using rain arrows with normal water to put out a fire.
Also, durable arrows are an archers best friend. Use them as your base arrow to build from for your adamantine arrow heads. Now, when you use sunder from 30' our need to user for damage reduction, the arrows still exist, and you can reuse them time and time again. Very handy for us (archers) when we hate constantly buying new ones or having to craft all the time.
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Sounds cool, Grizzly!
Elves of Goldston is not on the Pathfinder Society Resources page, though, so I can't use it.
Posting a level 9 build, especially one that isn't PFS legal, won't help me at all. Posting a level 2 or 3 or so PFS-legal build might be of some help. However, I'm so new that anything past level 2 will probably just overwhelm or confuse me.
Thanks anyway, though!
...damn typo... It's ELVES OF GOLARION... Just checked, it's allowed but only certain arrows, only good one is the healers sorrow arrow, maybe also clustershot.
Also, goz mask from inner sea guide is pfs legal.
You forgot to include the most important part of my post, I'll highlight the key areas:
Which brings up another trap a lot of people fall into. It is better to use a smaller die attack (1d6 vs 1d10) and hit more often then do more damage with the few times you do hit. Right now it won't make a huge difference since we're talking about a 1 point difference between DEX and STR, but as your DEX and STR get further apart, it becomes more important. As you get higher level, damage becomes less about the weapon damage die you roll and more about the bonuses that are added in.
Not to mention if the OP ever does get access to APG, he can just take the Point Blank Master feat and never even need to 5 ft step to avoid melee attackers.
I was giving the OP the advice he asked for. He said he didn't want suggestions from any other book, so Point Blank Master wasn't an option, if it was I obviously would have suggested that instead.
I am currently playing a Zen Archer in Jade Regent AP, and I can't count the number of times I wasn't able to take a 5' step without either not being able to attack, or screwing someone else in the party. It happens TONS.
And yeah, your to hit may be a bit lower w/o finesse, but 2Hing means more damage,
Which is exactly why I suggested a 2-handed finesse weapon.
it's worth the trade even BEFORE considering the feat cost.
This is the exact trap I'm talking about. This is completely not true, and comes from people not playing at higher levels. At the level he's at right now, the difference is miniscule (which is why I said that in my post), but when he gets up in level and his DEX start out distancing his STR, you're going to be talking about trading an average of 1 point of damage for a 25% miss chance.
Let's take a look at Grizzly's level 20 Archer's stats:
Str: 26 (+8)
Dex: 36 (+13)
With that your Bastard Sword will miss 25% more than a finesse weapon. If you take my suggestion and use two feats for the Elven Curved Blade, the bastard sword will miss 1 for every 4 the Curve Blade hits. So in those 4 rounds the Bastard Sword will do 52.5, damage the Curve Blade will do 70.0 points of damage. I'd say that's worth 2 feats, but let's prove my point further, let's go with an Aldori Dueling Sword, even with a 1d8 weapon, it'll still do 66.0 to the bastard sword's 52.5. And that's just base damage, you start adding Shocking Burst, Holy, and weapon bonuses, that number shoots WAY up.
Let's do the math on a +5 Holy weapon in the same 4 rounds the finesse weapon hits:
Bastard Sword: 88.5
1-handed Short Sword: 94
Elven Curved Blade: 118
Aldori Dueling Sword: 114
Now all of that is pretty irrelevant considering the new information that the OP is getting the APG, and with that information, you might want to take a gander at the Zen Archer and look at the thread Ultimate Archer to get an idea of the differences between them.
Finally let me warn you that while the optimization guides are great, they only really reflect combat. If that's all your games are, then you're golden, but if you're playing PFS, there is a lot more to them than just combat. Just because someone has done the math and says this feat is what will give you your highest to hit probability and damage potential, doesn't mean it's the best thing for your character.
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@Jodokai:
He's in PFS...which maxes out at level 12. His Dex isn't gonna ever get higher than maybe 26, and that's with a +4 belt that he'd probably have adding to Str as well (making it 20). It's bad advice for his character, and his situation.
By 20th level, it can matter...but by that point you can fly, teleport, and do a lot of other things to stay at archery range instead of melee.
Currently because of FoB being retcon, monks can't flurry with a bow.
There are level 13+ modules "on the schedule" according to this post
...However, there are more modules on the schedule that are 13+ levels.
Currently because of FoB being retcon, monks can't flurry with a bow.
Not ture. Nothing has been officially errated which means according to PFS, Zen Archer works exactly as written.
There are level 13+ modules "on the schedule" according to this post
...However, there are more modules on the schedule that are 13+ levels.Currently because of FoB being retcon, monks can't flurry with a bow.Not ture. Nothing has been officially errated which means according to PFS, Zen Archer works exactly as written.
The clarification wasn't an errata, though; it was just a clarification that it has always been the rules that Zen Archer doesn't work. (Or rather, that it's always been the rules that you can't flurry with one weapon, which makes Zen Archer not work for characters that don't have four arms.) According to the clarification, we actually NEED errata to make Zen Archer work.
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A min-maxed archer has the potential to steal the spotlight from other players more often than is healthy.We all had a great time! The character was put together with the help of the GM.
If you just want to discuss the ethics of min-maxing, please start your own thread.
You wanted help building a character.
I was giving you advice.
I'm not interested in the ethics of min-maxing, I'm interested in gaming fun.
Sorry if that gets up your snout.
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With that your Bastard Sword will miss 25% more than a finesse weapon. If you take my suggestion and use two feats for the Elven Curved Blade, the bastard sword will miss 1 for every 4 the Curve Blade hits. So in those 4 rounds the Bastard Sword will do 52.5, damage the Curve Blade will do 70.0 points of damage.
It's an interesting comparison between the curved elven blade and greatsword (I only bought a bastard sword because I didn't have the money for a greatsword). Two feats, though... That's quite an investment for something I'm going to so rarely use.
The elven sword doesn't fit my concept well, but if Ren were a half-elf, it would.
Would it still take two feats to use if he were a half-elf?
I just can't see playing an Int 7 half-elf.
In fact, I have trouble reckoning Ren's Wis 14 with his Int 7!
I'm going to say he's illiterate, for one, and make sure to role play that, occasionally reminding the GM if an NPC tries to pass me a secret note or something.
I'll also say, seriously, he has trouble counting and with basic addition and subtraction.
In my first job, at age 16, there was a mentally handicapped guy that worked there. I told him to put six chicken sticks in the fryer. He put five. Until that happened a few more times, I didn't figure out that the guy couldn't count. Then, I watched him... Yeah, he couldn't count.
Really wasn't all that abnormal, though. He drove a car and played cards and bingo at the seniors center. He was friendly and talkative. Guess he was like Karl Childers from "Sling Blade," except without a weird voice.
That's how I'm trying to reckon Int7, Wis 14. No reading, very poor at math.
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^Cool! I'm working on equipment right now. I love doing mundane survival gear and equipment. I'm so wonderfully OCD about it.
I believe the gloves are around 15,000 gp, so it's going to be quite a while before I can afford them. The Celestial armor sounds even more expensive, but I'll keep it in mind and jot it down in my future layout.
I bought the Pathfinder's kit, but I don't like how all the weights aren't itemized, so I'm putting it together piece-by-piece now.
Thanks again!
Most likely because you are two handing it, which gives you 1.5xSTR modifier.
Since you ordered APG and are doing Archer Fighter archetype...
Get Point Blank Master (PBM) at level 4. Yes, it's actually possible. It requires Weapon Specialization, which you can gain w/ your level 4 fighter feat. However, at every 4th fighter level, you can also retrain one fighter feat to something else, even if you could not have qualified for it before now. So pick a low-level combat feat as your 1st or 2nd level fighter feat, and swap it for PBM at level 4.
Archer archetype basically gives you PBM at level 9, which leaves you with 2 painful options:
1) Swap out PBM at 8th level and just survive till 9 w/o any such ability
2) Wait till level 12 to swap it, and just tolerate having a completely worthless feat for levels 9, 10, and 11.
I'd do option 1.
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^I'll keep that in mind!
Looks like I finally got the rough draft of my level 1 human Archer done. I'll write his story when I get time.
I didn't buy all the equipment suggested, but I still have money for the start of the next adventure in case it looks like I might need something.
Please review him with a scrutinizing eye. Thanks in advance!
If anyone wants to undertake the tedious job of auditing my equipment and accounting, I'd appreciate it. My math skills leave some to be desired.
Only a pound more and I'd be in the medium load capacity. Don't want that!
Changes from the original sheet in the original post:
* Swapped Constitution and Wisdom, dropping Ren's PFS-allotted HP from 13 to 12.
* Moved a skill rank from Climb to Intimidate.
* Switched from a vanilla Fighter to the Archer archetype (Advanced Player's Guide, p. 104).
Strange that Archers get a +1 to Perception at 2nd level, but Perception isn't a class skill... Really?
* Changed Indomitable Faith Trait to Tomb Raider from the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, p. 12. This makes Perception a class skill. Lost my +1 to Will saves in the swap.
* Added a rank (I didn't know I had) to Perception, which is now a class skill and gets another +1 due to Tomb Raider Trait.
* Recorded a +1 on my hard copy for the class skill Dungeoneering, though no ranks.
Removed character story for now; I'll write it after this is all finalized.
Ren
First Level Human Archer
STR 16/+3
DEX 18/+4
CON 13/+1
INT 7/-2
WIS 14/+2
CHA 7/-2
HP 12
Initiative +6 (+4 Dex, +2 Reactionary Trait)
AC 20 (10, +6 Armor, +4 Dex)
Fort +3 (Base +2, +1 Con)
Reflex +4 (Base 0, +4 Dex)
Will +2 (Base 0, +2 Wis)
BAB +1
CMB +4 (+1 BAB, +3 Str)
Weapon 1: Masterwork Mighty 3 Composite Longbow; Damage, 1d8+3 (+1 within 30')
Weapon 2: Bastard Sword; Damage, 1d10+4
Weapon 3: Dagger; Damage, 1d4+3
Skills
Intimidate +2 (-2 Cha, +1 Rank, +3 Class Skill)
Perception +7 (+2 Wis, +1 Rank, +1 Tomb Raider, +3 Class Skill)
Feats
Point-Blank Shot (+1 to attack and damage on targets within 30')
Precise Shot (No penalty for shooting into melee)
Rapid Shot (Make one extra ranged attack)
Special Abilities
Reactionary (+2 trait bonus on Initiative checks; APG, p. 328; Combat Trait)
Tomb Raider (+1 bonus on Perception and Knowledge [Dungeoneering] checks, Perception becomes a class skill; Osirion Trait)
Equipment
Masterwork Mighty 3 Composite Longbow; 2 PP, 3 lbs.
Leather Quiver with Arrows x20 (worn); 1 gp; 3 lbs.
Wayfinder (belt pouch #2 in backpack); 500 gp, 1 lb.
Masterwork Breastplate (worn); 350 gp, 30 lbs.
Masterwork Backpack (worn); 50 gp, 4 lbs.
Bastard Sword (sheath on belt); 35 gp, 6 lbs.
Traveler's Outfit (worn); 1 gp, 5 lbs.
Silk Rope 50' (backpack); 10 gp, 5 lbs.
Piton (backpack, tied to rope); 1 sp, 0.5 lb.
Belt Pouch #1 (worn); 1 gp, 0.5 lb.
Bullseye Lantern (backpack); 12 gp, 3 lbs.
Oil (1 pt. in lantern, 3 pts. in backpack); 4 sp, 4 lbs.
Tindertwigs x 3 (backpack); 3 gp
Pathfinder's Kit; 12 gp.
--Backpack (discarded)
--Bedroll (tied to backpack); 1 sp*, 5 lbs.
--Belt Pouch #2 (backpack); 1 gp*, 0.5 lb.
--Clay mug (backpack); 2 cp*, 1 lb.
--Dagger (belt sheath); 2 gp*; 1 lb.
--Fishhooks x2 (backpack); 2 sp*
--Flint and Steel (backpack); 1 gp*
--Sewing needle (backpack); 5 sp*
--Signal whistle (backpack); 8 sp*
--50 feet of string (backpack); 1 cp*, 0.5 lb.
--50 feet of thread (backpack); 1 cp*, 0.5 lb.
--Waterskin (backpack); 1 gp*, 4 lbs.
--Trail Rations (x7 days, backpack); 35 sp*, 7 lbs.
--Whetstone (backpack); 2 cp*, 1 lb.
* Price reflected in cost of the Pathfinder's Kit.
Earnings:
150 gp; starting wealth
509 gp; Mists of Mwangi, Tier 1-2
1300 gp; The Frostfur Captives, Tier 3-4
4 gp; sold cold weather outfit
Expenses:
2 PP; longbow
975 gp, 5 sp; equipment
150 gp; remove disease
8 gp; cold weather outfit (sold)
1 gp; hemp rope, 50' (ruined, discarded)
2 cp; mug of cider
Money: 828 gp, 4 sp, 8 cp (sp and cp in belt pouch #1, gp in belt pouch #2 in backpack)
Weight: 85.5 lbs. (Light Load; 33 lbs. in masterwork backpack)
The clarification wasn't an errata, though; it was just a clarification that it has always been the rules that Zen Archer doesn't work. (Or rather, that it's always been the rules that you can't flurry with one weapon, which makes Zen Archer not work for characters that don't have four arms.) According to the clarification, we actually NEED errata to make Zen Archer work.
Right, nothing has been changed. Zen Archer hasn't been removed from PFS, and there is no errata for it, which means it works exactly as written and as written Zen Archer says:
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon).
So until they come out with something saying the Zen Archer can't, they can.
It's an interesting comparison between the curved elven blade and greatsword (I only bought a bastard sword because I didn't have the money for a greatsword). Two feats, though... That's quite an investment for something I'm going to so rarely use.
The elven sword doesn't fit my concept well, but if Ren were a half-elf, it would.
Would it still take two feats to use if he were a half-elf?
First let me say, I suggested that when you were only using the Core Rulebook. Using just the Core Rulebook, there is no way for an Archer to avoid taking an AoO, so you'd have to switch to melee. Now that you have APG, don't have to ever worry about switching to melee, so those feats become a waste.
That said, I'm pretty sure a Half-Elf can trade out some racial traits to become proficient with elf weapons, so you'd only need to take weapon finesse.
EDIT: I found it, you can switch out the Half-Elf Skill Focus for an Exotic or Martial Weapon Prof.
Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus Feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
Ok, if Archer's bonus on attack/damage with a bow does not count as weapon training, do NOT be an archer archetype. The gloves of dueling invalidate any archetype (except ones that give up the +attack/damage entirely for something different, I guess) that do not allow you to benefit from them.
I did not realize paizo was dumb enough to write an archetype and put an item in the exact same book that invalidates the archetype....no wait, I did. Sniper Rogue and Sniper Goggles are also in the APG...
Anyway, I agree with Axebeard. If you cannot use gloves of dueling as an archer archetype, you should ditch that archetype!
I would stick to straight fighter, though. Just a shame the archer archetype is complete junk.
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Looks like I may be playing PFS in a new city in a new state exactly two weeks from today! Yay!
I have little time and don't have my books with me, but is there any difference between the Archer and the Fighter on first level? I don't think there is. If not, just change "Archer" to "Fighter" on my above character sheet and that's that.
Axebeard, thanks a lot for the Paladin/Fighter build, but at this point, having already played Ren, I don't want to abandon him to the Void of Nevermore. He's my first character. I feel like I owe it to him to play him out at least until level 6 or so. Then, I can consider other concepts. Thanks, though.
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Just got my APG and PFS Field Guide in the mail! Yay! XD
One question: "Day Jobs." Is there any reason not to have one and how do you get one?
I couldn't find day jobs in the Core or the APG. I see they are discussed on p. 3 of the PFS Field Guide and p. 17 of the Guide to PFS Organized Play, but no mention that I saw about the actual acquiring of said job or what its DC is.
I mean, my guy's got to make money somehow. I was thinking caravan guard, maybe.
Thanks!
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'Day Jobs' as such, are an invention of PFS, and are basically a mechanical way to make Perform, Profession, and Crafts skills useful in PFS. Buy a rank in Profession (Soldier or Guard or something like that) and you'll have a +6, and get a roll to make money every session. It's pocket change, but still nice.