To Railroad or not to railroad…that is the question
So my Players are finished their last investigative adventure and I set it up so that they could pick the next adventure from a list of five situations depending on what kind of adventure they wanted most. Now the reality is any given adventure might not be what they think it is based on their limited knowledge but its not so far off.
Well after considering all their options the PCs decide on an adventure which has a background of being an old dwarven fortress now long conquered by goblinoids now being used by the evil invaders as a place where captured slaves manufacture weapons for the goblinoid invaders.
I’m listening to the players as they make their decision because I only have a few basic outlines of this adventure and I’d like it to meet some of their expectations. However here is kind of where I bump into a problem. Some of the players seem excited that this will be a dungeon. While another player that has been paying close attention too the handouts that have been given out over the course of the campaign feels that the PCs can probably talk their way into the complex.
This has left me with a dilemma. I could easily include a secret way into this fortess and stick lots of interesting monsters – real monster-y monsters that are actually normally hard to place in my campaign (where it tends to be all humanoids) and have the PCs then get to the scenes where they are in the fortress and organizing a prisoner revolt. In a lot of ways I think this is the best most balanced way to handle this adventure. The PCs will level once they finish the dungeon and the next part, the prisoners revolt will be nicely level appropriate but it means forcing the players to play the adventure my way.
My other alternative is to essentially design the whole place and just let them handle the opposition however they see fit. Maybe they go for the dungeon route or maybe they talk their way into the complex with half of them pretending to be prisoners and once they do that maybe they figure out how to arrange a prisoners revolt. In this case the secret entrance is probably never used and the PCs don’t likely do the dungeon part because once they start with the prisoners revolt I’m looking for it to succeed and for them to lead an army of ex-prisoners out of the Fortress to save a besieged city and be some real big damn heros of the land (don’t tell them that – they think I hate them).
I’m really stuck on this – do I just set the scene and then let them take care of it as they see fit or do I railroad them…because I think it’ll be a better adventure?
In general, I'd say the unwritten rule of good DMing is to set the scene and let them go nuts. However, some groups just do not respond well without being led around by the nose. I'm pretty sure that you know which type of group you have on your hands by now. If you have even one player that tends to take the bait and run with it - dragging his reluctant companions along with him - I'd err on the side of set the scene.
In general, I'd say the unwritten rule of good DMing is to set the scene and let them go nuts. However, some groups just do not respond well without being led around by the nose. I'm pretty sure that you know which type of group you have on your hands by now. If you have even one player that tends to take the bait and run with it - dragging his reluctant companions along with him - I'd err on the side of set the scene.
Yeah - I've been kind of leaning this way myself. Though there is an issue of my players like being led around by the nose except for that one player...could be an issue if he is having an off day. I could get around that by making the dungeon a clear choice and then allow the players to, in reality, handle things however they want safe in the knowledge that if my most clear headed player is having an off day they will still know how to proceed but I have a suspicion that if I highlight one possible route the other players will actually overrule the innovative player.
Whenever my players do an investigative type adventure I provide an ongoing write up to help them (and me) keep track of what has been going on in the adventure which means that by the time the adventure is complete I have a whole little novela of the adventure. Going to post that here but with a spoiler tag due to length considerations. On a meta game level note that everytime the text mentions 'The Great Hero's' it is actually talking about the adventuring group most of my players ran in the last campaign I did. I.e. my current players are trying to chase down their old characters during a period of the campaign when those old characters visited the capital.
Chapter Ten: Telhran Inflamed
Day One: (4th Freeday of Sunsebb, 849 Year of Dead’s Reverence)
The PCs returned to Telhran footsore and weary and despite the festivities going on outside celebrating the end of 849 Year of Dead Reverence they elect to return to their homes and get some rest. Tomorrow they will try and get in contact with 'The Great Heros' a group of adventurers who the PCs have reason to believe might have information pertaining to Heldane Crafter, an individual the PCs have been trying to locate as the PCs have information that whatever it was Heldane Crafter is/was investigating is critical to understanding the why the Goblinoid invasion of the Haddath Empire came to pass.
Day Two: (1st Starday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
Just as midnight is being rung in and the people of Telhran build to a crescendo in their celebration the PCs are attacked in their beds by nondescript attackers. Most of the PCs flee their homes due to the surprise attack though the Cavalier Daneel manages to defend the Cavalier Lodge in Telhran with the help of the other resident cavaliers though losses are heavy. During the course of this attack there is a massive explosion and the Hill District begins to burn. The rest of the PCs rendezvous at Tasty Tillie's and noting that Daneel is not around head for the Cavalier HQ where they find him resting from his ordeals.
The group leaves Daneel to rest while they head to the fire to investigate and help. The early morning is spent along the fringes of the Great Fire helping out and asking people about the Great Hero’s. By mid morning the Great Fire is substantially brought under control by the people of Telhran. The PCs Head for Tasty Tillie's where they meet Daneel. They decide to make a more concerted attempt to find The Great Hero’s using contacts on the street etc. and learn that The Great Hero’s where staying at the Gold Dragon Inn and have been for the last few days and that they where seen in the company of an adventuring Group called the Princess’ Swords at Tasty Tillie's yesterday (Day 1) where they seemed to be making plans and handing over documents and such. Furthermore the Great Hero’s apparently fought a battle in the midst of the Great Fire (albeit at its edge) and they were really tossing around some powerful magic – afterword they actually ventured deeper into the heart of the Great Fire but no one you spoke to could say what they did there. The PCs decide to investigate the Gold Dragon Inn to see if they can find the Great Hero’s there. At the Gold Dragon Inn they learn that the Great Hero’s checked out and took their stuff with them but that they had been seen at the bar there where they had met a group of adventurers (Evening of Day 0), The Princess Swords’, who had been adventuring along the Darkwood and in the vicinity of Saltmarsh. The bartender says that the Great Hero’s hit it off with the Princess Swords – apparently both adventuring groups where exchanging conspiracy theories as to what was behind the goblinoid invasion of the Haddath Empire. While both groups got a little tipsy that evening they agreed to have a more formal planning session together the next day (Day 1) at Tasty Tillie's.
The PCs choose to investigate the Great Hero’s Battle in the Great Fire and learn that their attackers where some kind of powerful sell swords that usually operate up in the lands of the Chin-Tuo but apparently came down to Telhran for some reason. They presumably had agreed to try and kill the Great Hero’s but failed and where themselves killed. The Great Hero’s thoroughly looted their corpses and no clues where found on the bodies.
Unsure where to find the Great Hero’s the PCs decide to try and find out about The Princess’ Swords through asking around about them and using street contacts and such. They learn that the Group is led by Samantha Steel, a cavalier and included Mina Ruby a Gnomish Alchemist, A Lizard Folk Warrior Named The Rock, Ardina a gun totting Zenitian female, Etheric Firstborn who is something of a rake and Zerik Smoke who is highly regarded among the lower classes as a peasant who made good. Apparently the Princess’ Swords where attacked at the same time as the Great Hero’s and the PCs just before the Great Fire started (early morning Day 2).
The PCs investigate Samantha Steel and learn that she is the lynchpin of the Princess’ Swords and a well respected Cavalier of the independent faction. As it is now getting late the PCs retire to the Cavalier Lodge to get some sleep.
Day Three: (1st Sunday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
The PCs consider investigating more about the background on The Rock but opt to instead investigate the Happy Harlot which is purportedly where the Princess’ Swords where attacked. They learn that the Watch has taken the body of Samantha Steel to their nearby outpost. They talk with the Watch and ‘take command’ (the PCs are in fact fairly high profile investigators at this stage in their career, having solved a number of big cases, and are highly respected among the beat walkers of the Watch) getting the Watch to go about and try and round up some witnesses to the attack. They talk with a beggar who witnessed Ardina fleeing the site of the battle badly wounded and learnt that she planned to head for the main gates. There was also a woman who witnessed the attack in its entirety across the way and she said that after the attackers, very non-descript types, killed Samantha Steel and chased after the other members of the Princess’ Swords (who fled in all directions) they returned and she overheard one of them saying that it was Ironic that they killed a Cavalier and then they would use the Cavalier organization to send what they had retrieved from her body (apparently some documents or some such) to some one named ‘Spider’.
The PCs opt to follow Ardina as she was wounded and might be in the most danger and head for the Gates of Telhran. At the Main Gate they learn that Ardina passed through the gates during the early morning hours of the Great Fire (Day 2) and was apparently headed for the Water Carriers Union. Shortly after that other ‘investigators’ where at the main gates asking about her and the guards told them that they thought she was headed for the Water Carriers Union.
The PCs head for the Water Carriers Union and learn that it was empty the morning of the Great Fire as the Water Carriers all left to help fight the fire. Apparently when some of the Water Carriers returned to work one of them thought he saw some blood on the ground but the area tends to be very wet and he could not find anything the show the PCs. However some nearby residents heard a series of loud bangs during the morning of the Great Fire and tried to report it to the Watch but the Watch had also left to help in the Great Fire. The squatter tried again the next day reporting the loud bangs. The Watch investigated and talked with a manager who claimed that the loud banging was some new machines that the Water Carriers had installed or fixed or some such. The PCs head back to the Water Carriers Union and get their hands on the manager who made these statements. He cracks at the sight of Gladness and says he can take them to Ardina, she is just outside...but at that moment a sizable group of Spider’s Operatives shows up...
[End Session #1 of Telhran Inflamed]
...After the PCs mop the floor with Spider’s Operatives, and Slick Rick hears one of them talking to Gladness, they find that the manager they where interrogating has fled in the confusion. They search around outside of the Water Carriers Union and behind some urns that have been carefully stacked they find the body of Ardina. While her guns have been taken she has clearly not been thoroughly searched. Zenetian clothing has tons of pockets and when the PCs go through them they find all sorts of mundane stuff including a whole stash of bullets for her guns (useless without a Zenetian Gun), skinning knives, flint and steel and other mundane equipment an adventurer might have on her. Of more interest in one of her more concealed pockets they find several documents. One of the documents relates to Heldane Crafter and the other appears to be about a place called Pax Tharkas where The Council of The Chosen and the Clergy of the Lord of Hate are collecting Slaves.
The PCs head back toward the city intent on going to visit the Temple of Suymanea in the Foreigner's Quarter but along the way are distracted when Gladness threatens to leave the group if they insist on talking about The Blue Lady whom Slick Rick believes is another name for Spider (or maybe the alias work the other way). After being convinced to return the party the group is interrupted on their journey to the Temple of Suymanea when one of Slick Rick’s gutter snipes comes rushing up and informing him that she had in fact found The Great Hero’s and that they are even know at some pastry shop in Empire Square.
The PCs change course and race to Empire Square but when they arrive the Great Hero’s have finished their coffee and pastries and teleport out before the PCs can manage to flag them down.
As it is now getting late the PCs elect to return to the Cavalier Council Lodge in Telhran to sleep. When they arrive Daneel is informed by Jarek Breeze that he can let his friends sleep there one more night but that the Cavalier Lodge is not a place for his friends to move into especially as the beds in the place will shortly be taken up by newly arriving Cavaliers who have been sent to reinforce the outpost by the Realist Faction of the Cavalier Council after the recent attack.
Day Four: (1st Moonday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
With the PCs already near the Cavalier Mail Service they elect to start their day off by investigating if the Princess’ Swords attackers meant the Cavalier Mail Service when they where overheard to comment that ‘it was ironic that Spider would get the documents she was looking for via the same organization as Samantha Steel was a part of’. Seemed likely as Samantha Steel was a Cavalier. The PCs meet Jarek Breeze at the mail service and ask him if they can search the mail. He is unhappy about the idea when Daneel brings it up but Slick Rick points out that this is not a favour they are asking...they want to see the mail in their legal capacity as investigators investigating the murder of Samantha Steel. Knight Aspirant Jarek Breeze is flustered and insists on getting Knight Cavalier Sir Taroc Skycaller to make the call. Sir Skycaller arrives, debates the issue with himself and decides that the laws of Telhran apply even to Cavaliers so long as they are inside Telhran’s Jurisdiction...and therefore Investigators have a legal right to search the mail if it is a part of an ongoing investigation. With that the PCs search the mail and find what they are hoping for, a letter with some blood on the outside going to an address in Kuzots. Inside are several documents that look like they might well have been the kind of thing the Great Hero’s would have passed off to the Princess’ Swords. One of the documents is a letter from a ‘Creation’ (probably a Draconian) sent to a ‘Master Archtag’ stating that some kind of medallions are being transported to someplace called ‘The Forbidden City’ under guard of a ‘Master Heldrake’. The second letter would seem to be one that was given to Heldane Crafter and found by the Great Hero’s. It was an order to other members of the Church of Kezeus to assist Heldane Crafter by giving him information pertaining to some one named Mordev Zugmatov.
As the PCs are concerned about where they might crash when night falls once again they decide to pay a visit to their acquaintance, Eligos the Sage, who greats them and introduces himself to the new members of the group. The some of the more insightful PCs (Daneel and Kristryd) notice that he is rather cold and hesitant toward Gladness and that he recognizes Kristryd from somewhere. Eligos the Sage says that he has something special for the PCs to see and asks that they follow him to the Old Track in the Foreigner's Quarter. As this is near to the Temple of Suymanea the PCs agree. Along the way they witness a scene in which Soldiers move into one of the plaza’s they are passing through and there is a declaration of martial law in Telhran and a suspension of the courts and the Justicar’s. Henceforth The Army and the Watch will decide guilt or innocence of the citizens of Telhran according to their own criteria. Though it sounds like the Nobles and the Emperor have signed off on this. Disturbing to the PCs as ultimate power over the life and death of everyone in Telhran (presumably excluding nobles of course) now rests with the Watch Commander Farick Earth...whom the PCs encountered in the World’s Temple when they where busting Blessed of Hern out of that compound of Yarlimite (South Continent) expats. The PCs have reason to believe that it is not in their best interests to allow him to get his hands on those of them that he recognizes.
The PCs continue on to the Old Track and find that Eligos has used their Chariot Racing Charter to create a front for what is in fact a secret base. Complete with the Three Spitting Mace Tail Dinosaurs that they saved when they brought the seagoing vessel, The Ocean Empress, back to port. After the PCs talk some more with Eligos and tour their new digs they decide to finally head for the objective that they have been trying to reach for days, the Lizard Folk community centred on the Temple of Suymanea in the Foreigner's Quarter. They arrive and find the temple bustling. Mishan, as a Dragonborn (who share a common ancestor with Lizard Folk and often worship Suymanea themselves) takes the lead and goes to meet the Lizard Folk Shaman’s at the heart of the Temple...
[End Session #2 of Telhran Inflamed]
Mishan, with some support from Slick Rick attempts to convince the Shaman’s of the Temple of Suymanea to tell them if they have had any contact with the Rock but ends up scaring them more then anything. Not trusting these strangers to have the Rock’s best interests at heart they pretend to have no knowledge of him. When the PCs go to leave the Temple of Suymanea they are interrupted by a major attack on the Temple by Spider’s forces, including some heavy hitters she has brought in from outside of the city (Hill Giants mainly). In the opening stages of the assault on the Temple of Suymanea The Rock, disguised as a ceremonial guard, races forward to defend his people but is cut down by Spider’s Operatives. The battle continues...
[End of Session #3 of Telhran Inflamed]
The battle in the Temple of Suymanea continues as hordes of of monsters move up the ramp, initially the PCs are pushed back, or elect to fall back, as the concentrated fire of Spider’s Operatives has been shown to rapidly reduce any but the most potent hero’s, as demonstrated by the quick demise of the Rock though the invading forces are being tied up by the large numbers of the temples guardians and defenders supported by Wotjek’s Investigators. Spider’s Operatives acquire the documents they came for off of the corpse of The Rock but elect to stay and try and eliminate Wojtek’s Investigators. The battle continues...
[End of Session #4 of Telhran Inflamed]
The Battle in the Temple of Suymanea reaches its peak. The rank’s of both sides begin to rapidly thin rapidly as Lubar the psionic trainer starts to blast many of the temples defenders with area effect powers. The PCs and start to work through the hill giants and displacer beasts, who are far weaker then Spider’s Operatives, Spider’s Operatives and many of the opposing forces are slowed up by Krystrid’s own large area effect powers. Meanwhile Slick Rick returns to the offensive poofing into the enemies ranks atop Sparkles, where he steals the documents off of the Spider’s Operative that had acquired them before laying the hurt on the Psionic Trainer Lubar who begins to rapidly fade under his brutal assault. Finally, with only a handful of the Temples original defenders remaining the hero’s begin to seriously destroy the centre of the attackers line with Giants and Displacer Beasts falling left and right to Mishan and Atilite’s concerted punishment. The Battle Continues.
[End of Session #5 of Telhran Inflamed]
The Battle in the Temple of Suymanea begins to finally wind down. Lubar, the Psionic Trainer has died and Slick Rick, who has been buffeted around by giants in the battle manages to hold on and escape back toward his own lines supported by some well timed healing from Daneel. The combat is down to just a handful of the Temples original defenders and a number of Spider’s Operatives, for a brief moment it appeared that that the hard to handle Spider’s Operatives might manage to swing the battle back in their favour as Wotjek’s Investigators have practically exhausted their powers but that flounders as Spider’s Operatives have been significantly damaged themselves and and now their numbers simply dwindle to the point where they are unable to put out enough damage to swing the battle in their favour. Finally the last of them and the remaining hill giants and displacer beasts go down. Slick Rick is yelling to capture the last Spider’s Operative but Gladness has his own agenda and swoops in at the last second beheading the enemy thus insuring that he can’t say anything that might make Gladness...uncomfortable. Shortly thereafter the Watch and detachments of the military arrive in the Temple but all that is left is to bury the dead.
The grateful Shaman’s of the Temple of Suymanea reward the PCs with their stock of concoctions and potion’s while the PCs review the documents that The Rock had on him. The first one appears to be from a Draconian commander of some kind and discusses the Giants of the Haddath Mountains and this Draconians attempt to curry favour with them. In particular with a Hill Giant Chief named Nosnra who is apparently himself a thrall of a Frost Giant Jarl who makes his abode somewhere in the Haddathian Mountains. The second document is more unusual and would appear to be written by a female named Ilthane who was writing to her mother. The odd part is that this daughter would appear to be well versed in some of the inner workings of the Chosen and the Lord of Hate and appears to believe that these two groups are responsible for the creation of the Draconians, especially someone she calls the ‘Living Chosen’. It makes reference to the creation process of the Draconians, the fact that the Lizard Folk of the Frozen Swamp have gone to ground (in this the document is clearly dated, as the Great Hero’s gutted the Draconians in the south and destroyed their creation complex while Wojtek’s Investigators - you guys - worked with detachments of the Town of Frell and the Frozen Swamp Lizard Folk leading them in a military victory that has substantially broken the power of the Draconains in the south. If there is any good news coming out of this war its coming from the south where the forces of evil are clearly on the run and being driven back and that should continue until either the armies from the Darkwood get this far south (they are closing in) or a new threat emerges). This document also described problems that the Chosen and the Lord of Hate where having in acquiring eggs from the Lizard Folk of Saltmarsh which would appear to be where they originally got their eggs for creating Draconians. Finally it made reference to an artefact called the Katana of Light, located in the Tower of Irjemek, noting that Clan Scorpion (on of the Seven Clans of the Bloodlined Chin-Tuo – all of whom have been in hiding sense near the end of the Haddathian Civil War) had found another way into the Tower of Irjemek and where attempting to retrieve the Katana of Light...which would be a key item in uniting the Chin-Tuo possibly helping them to stem the tide of the invasion in the north.
During the battle night had fallen and the PCs return to their secret base where it becomes clear that they really should buy some furniture for their new digs. Crashing out using their traveling gear they spend the night safe and sound – if not necessary completely comfortable.
Day Five: (1st Godsday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
The PCs, now rested, decide to investigate what happened to Mina Ruby, the Princess’ Swords Alchemist. After a morning spent asking about here, sending out gutter snipes and speaking to persons of interest the PCs learn that she had historically been a drug addict and had started on her alchemical training in part to support that habit. Redeemed by Samantha Steel she joined the Princess’ Swords but has been known to fall off the wagon during periods of high stress and usually then ends up in her old haunts in The Warrens. The PCs head to the Warrens to ask around to see if anyone has seen here and they soon find out that she was seen in the company of as Dwarf named Matilda Gloryhammer whom it would seem is a local information broker (among other ‘services’) for the seedier elements of The Warrens. The PCs bribe Matilda Gloryhammer into providing them information on Mina Ruby and she tells them that she in fact directed Mina Ruby to Gordo’s House of Delights, a run down drug den located in the Warrens. She apparently also directed some ‘none descript but well armed individuals’ that where looking for Mina Ruby to the same locale. When the PCs investigate Gordo’s House of Delights they note that while the place is full of riff raff Gordo does not seem to be on the premises and is not collecting his fee. They find Mina Ruby naked on a soiled mattress, she apparently has had her throat slit and all her stuff except for a piece of expensive . Deducing that maybe the missing Gordo might know what happened to Mina Ruby the PCs start questioning the riff raff. They manage to snag some young punk dealers and intimidate one of them into talking. The punk says that he saw Gordo tear out of his establishment a few days back with a suitcase full of stuff and holding onto what might have been some alchemical gear. He overheard Gordo say that ‘he knows just who will buy this...’ The punk kid was further intimidated into spilling that he thinks he knows who Gordo was talking about...a local drug kingpin named Mad Maker who supplies a large percentage of the alchemical style drugs in Telhran.
After asking around the PCs find themselves back with Matilda Gloryhammer who, for another suitable bribe, tells them where they can find Mad Maker’s Lab. The head to the South Docks where they find an empty warehouse but it has a concrete staircase around the back with an Iron Door with a pull back peek hole. After several attempts the PCs finally manage to bluff the doorman into opening the door...he has second thoughts when he see’s all of Wojtek’s investigators but now its to late for him and our intrepid investigators barge in. They head down deep into a walled off section of the sewers and here they find a pair of ladders dropping down 50’ into the roof of a loud and very large drug lab. In the lab they see Mina Ruby’s gear spread out on a table as well as lab workers. There is also a powerfully muscled Dwarf with a stained apron, a huge mattock and alchemical vials of his own in the room – by reputation this must be Mad Maker. Beside him, now trying to hide is Gordo and on a walkway in one corner is a Drow Elf. The PCs try and negotiate to buy just the documents, insisting that if Mad Maker does not hand them over willingly then they’ll be forced to take them by force, but after agreeing to send two of their members to talk Mad Maker orders an attack when those two members get to the foot of the latter...saying ‘No deal’ I’ve already sold the documents....
[End of Session #6 of Telhran Inflamed]
A frantic fight then ensues with Mad Maker’s thugs quickly drinking potions that would in another few seconds make them uncannily fast and then closing around the three PCs that where at the foot of the ladder, Gladness, Kristryd and hidden among Kristryd’s robes Slick Rick. Slick Rick charges off toward the Drow on the walkway Gladness teleports beside Mad Maker after Mad Maker throws something vile at Kristryd and Kristryd slays the thugs surrounding him with a divine burst. Atalite leaps from the top of the ladder to the walkway...but comes up just short landing in a heap at the foot of the ladder leading to the walkway while the Barbarian climbs partway down and then leaps to the floor, also landing in a heap, Sparkles the Pony Teleports partway down and then falls the rest of the way also landing in a heap. Only Daneel shows caution climbing down the ladder. Rapidly the PCs close in on the Drow and Mad Maker and begin to brutally mess with them but into the room flow wave after wave of Mad Maker’s thugs and hopped up on some concoction that gives them phenomenal speed the thugs focus their fire On Mad Makers orders rapidly taking the Pixie down with crossbow fire, though not before Slick Rick manages to steal the documents that the the PCs have come for and knock the Drow Elf out could with the pommel of his dagger in a well placed hit. As the number of thugs in the room increase the PCs find that they have difficulty reducing their numbers even though they any individual thug is easily dispatched and despite Daneel’s attempts to constantly heal up downed party members the Pixie will get up only to be brought down repeatedly and Mishan as will go down as well. Nonetheless Mishan eventually manages to deliver a massive hit to the unconscious Drow that nearly kills it and while the Drow tries to stagger away Slick Rick finishes it off. Mad Maker too succumbs to the parties attentions and is dragged down and that sends his thugs fleeing the complex.
The PCs search the complex finding thousands of gold pieces worth of saleable loot as well as a Helm of Hidden Horrors on the Drow and a number of potent alchemical bombs of various flavours.
[End of Session #7 of Telhran Inflamed]
They also found the documents that Mina Ruby originally possessed (and given to her by The Great Hero’s). One of the documents was a letter from a Cavalier talking about trouble near the Darkwood in 847 but which focuses on evidence that there may be a danger that the goblinoids from the Darkwood, or more likely whatever is behind the goblinoids, may be trying to recruit the Giants of the Haddathian Mountains to their cause and the dangers that might pose to the Haddath Empire. The second is a long letter from a scholar of Xak Merrith, for some reason it would seem The Great Hero’s paid him to tell them everything he new about giant lizards that once walked the lands. The document runs many pages and covers everything the scholar could find regarding such creatures though the bottom line would seem to be that such creatures where made by the Servitors to inhabit the Prime Plane, they where made because the Progenitors and the Servitors had created an environment specifically ideal to their desired living conditions and that the vast majority of such creatures died when the Progenitors succumbed and the world they had built, the world everyone lives on, ceased to be a stable controlled thing run by the Progenitors and the Servators and began to change and evolve – eventually the winds and weather and nature itself had changed so much that the creatures of that far off time either changed and evolved themselves or died off. Only remote places that happened to have conditions much like the ones that the Progenitors and Servitors had originally created might still house some of these great animals aznd none have been seen on Haddath Isle in a very long time.
The PCs then decide to investigate the Peasant Hero Zerik Smoke and they locate his parents restaurant but are unable to convince them that they are actually here to save Zerik Smoke. They have deduced that the parents likely know something about where he is and also that the parents simply don’t believe that the PCs represent Zerik Smokes best interests. The PCs consider bringing in some one who will vouch for them but instead decide to investigate the only other member of the Princess Swords that might be still alive, Etheric Firstborn the Eladrin rake. They find that he once had connections to an illegal Chin-Tuo Triad before Samantha Steel redeemed him from a life of crime and have reason to believe he might have returned to this Triad with her dead. They track the location of the Triad down as its location is not really a secret. The local Watch Commander warns them that he won’t interfere in the goings on in the Triads property for fear that he might have to charge the PCs with something and therefore he takes his men far out of hearing ‘to get something to eat’.
After being refused entry the PCs decide that to push their way forward as they are investigators. When they get to the foot of the Dojo they are attacked by the inhabitants...two bulky sumo wrestler type individuals as well as two martial arts masters all lead by a leader who looks like he is two hundred years old. The fight starts with the martial arts master moving around each side of the Dojo and then going down the marching order of the PCs punching and kicking. Gladness stops one from rampaging on Kristryd but does start on something of a pummelling he’ll take during the course of the encounter. The other martial arts master moves right around the party then uses a ki shout to daze several members before leaping over the group and lashing out some more knocking some PCs over, notably the already dazed Atalite. The Sumo’s then charge forward showing off their signature move of grabbing PCs and flinging them through the rest of the group attempting to knock other party members off their feet, which works except for the amazingly steadfast Kristryd who proves that he can leap over fly allies that come through like freight trains with amazing skill. The PCs then prove they are not down and out and hit back, rapidly reducing one of the martial arts masters to a bloody smear and laying down pushes, dazes and weakness on the rest of their enemies quickly reducing the amount of punishment they are taking. Nonetheless the battle remains in the balance...
[End of Session #8 of Telhran Inflamed]
...As the battle continues the PCs switch between fighting with one of the Obmu the Mountain Twins and the remaining Martial Arts Master. They manage to take down the second Martial Arts Master but not before suffering yet more heavy hits and the conflict simply does not seem to be resolving itself in a manner that is truly indicative of who is winning. As the Cleric Daneel is hit with a brutal life draining attack from the Triads Sorcerous leader that, despite Daneels Holy resistance to such diabolical effects, begins to seriously drain his life force. With things in doubt for both the Triad and Wojtek’s Investigators Slick Rick flies forward to finally engage the Triad’s Leader but as he does so he also offers a truce, if they can have Etheric Firstborn, who is all they are really here for, then they will leave. The Triad’s leader comments that Etheric Firstborn is dead so the deal being worked out between slashes, parry’s and powerful magical effects is that they can have Etheric Firstborn and all the stuff he arrived with. A deal is struck and cautiously both parties pull back. Etheric Firstborn’s beheaded corpse is found is a secret location under one of the Dojo’s outlying buildings. He was beheaded apparently by one of Spider’s Operatives. His corpse had a fair amount of his adventuring gear including a magical helmet – a Helm of Horror, as well as substantial coinage he had saved from his life as an adventurer. The documents that he was carrying had been separated from his body but the Triad Master turned them over after which the PCs retired to their secret base under the old Chariot Racing Arena.
The First Document was a report by a ‘Force Commander’ Alnurk to a War Leader Snilkar, which are both Draconian names. It described the fall of the Caves of Frell which would have taken place around six months ago as the PCs heard about this first hand when they where in the Town of Frell a month or so ago. The gist is that the Great Hero’s cleared the caves out and in the process killed one of the Chosen and his stead the Dragon Fireseed. Interestingly it describes some place called the Forbidden City which appears to be some kind of a base. The second was also a report but this time it would seem to be from someone in the Lord of Hate’s clergy talking to another member. It mentions a ‘Living Chosen’ and indicates that he some how acquired the Draconic steads that the Chosen ride and that the Draconians are essentially loyal to him. It also shows some significant dissension between the Clergy of the Lord of Hate and the Chosen though it appears that both these groups are behind the Goblinoid invasion. Furthermore it again mentions this Forbidden City and would seem to indicate that the Clergy of the Lord of Hate, or at least their high ranking leaders, appear to reside there. Finally this Living Chosen is apparently out of contact with the mainstream war effort though even the leaders of the Lord of Hates Clergy don’t appear to know why.
Day Six: (1st Waterday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
The PCs decide that the best way to proceed in locating the final member of the Princess’ Swords, Zerik Smoke, would be to find some one that his restaurant owning parents would trust to vouch for them. They hit on the idea of talking to the owner of the Bluebird in the Oakbridge neighbourhood as they had lots of favourable contact with him back in the day when they solved the Oakbridge Murders so off they head for the Bluebird to recruit Graff Pandrang as a character reference. Along the way they realize that they are being followed by a rather rotund man who is clearly being winded trying to catch up with them. They stop and talk with him and soon learn that restaurant workers in the Warrens are being harassed by nondescript but well armed individuals, whom the PCs recognize as the basic description of Spider’s Operatives, all looking for Zerik Smoke. The PCs tell the rotund man, Forak Mist, to go and ask Graff Pandrang to go to the Smoke House, Zerik Smoke’s parents restaurant, to vouch for them while they head for the warrens to intercept Spider’s Operatives. Once the PCs are in the Warren’s they spend a short period of time trying to locate the non-descript hooligans but eventually find them down an ally terrifying a Chin-Tuo waitress with dire threats if she does not reveal the location of Zerik Smoke. The PCs go for their weapons...
[End of Session #9 of Telhran Inflamed]
While the Spider’s Operatives in the alleyway try to focus fire for their best advantage shooting the Barbarian Mishan down in the opening moments of the combat its soon quite apparent that they are far over matched and not long into the battle they begin to face threats that force them to stop focusing their fire and that dooms them to a quick and inglorious defeat. During the combat the terrified waitress managed to make a break and flee the scene. While the PCs ask around after her they are not able to locate her and therefore continue on with their plans to get Graff Pandrang to vouch for them. When they get to Zerik Smoke’s parents restaurant they find Graff Pandrang already their convincing the parents that the PCs are Wotjek’s Investigators and that they are the good guys and should be trusted. At this point Zerik Smoke’s Parent’s finally relent and tell the PCs that, while they don’t know where their son is they where told he was OK and was being helped by workers at Tasty Tillie’s.
This leads the PCs back to that well known coffee shop – one in which the PCs already spend an exorbitant amount of coin. This time however they are delving into the very bowels of how that establishment works...which pretty much means hailing down a worker and getting her to bump them up the chain of command until finally they are led into the back room where a withered old female gnome is being assisted by a much younger human female who calls her ‘Grandmother’. After admonishing the PCs for their part in distracting her staff by committing wild exploits that the staff gossip about Tillie reveals that Zerik Smoke has been hidden in the Imperial Grain Mill. Historically the Grain Mill had storage areas under it but these are hard to access and their has been a whole building dedicated to actually storing the grain for the last several centuries. The under storage areas are thus unused as the noise from the grain mill above makes them unusable for any other purpose. All of this makes them a good hiding place, at least for someone in the food industry who knows about such things and can get food and such delivered by someone with access to the Imperial Grain Mill.
The PCs head for the Imperial Grain Mill taking steps to insure that they are not followed. Inside they find Zerik Smoke, the first living member of the Princess’ Swords they have actually met in the flesh, though they did see a living member, The Rock, being cut down at the battle of the Temple of Suymanea. They tell Zerik Smoke who they are and convince him to show them the documents that he has. It turns out that unlike the rest of the members of the Princess Swords, who had documents that where originally found by The Great Hero’s, Zerik Smoke has documents that where penned by the Cavalier leader of the Princess’ Swords Samantha Steel. Letter’s she wrote for the Cavalier Council during the Princess’ Swords retreat from the area of the Haddath Empire bordering the Darkwood following the goblinoid invasion. The first letter is in regards to the Lizard Folk tribes living in the vicinity of Blackwall Keep on the western edge of the Darkwood. In this letter Samantha Steel outlines that she personally learned that the Lizard Folk from these tribes have been overawed by two chromatic dragons and that the egg laying females of these tribes have been transferred to the ruins of Saltmarsh which is dominated by the Lizard Folks old enemies the Sahuagin. She is concerned that the tribes remaining in their ancestral homes are now under the control of evil Dragons while the females are being held by Sahuagin in Saltmarsh. She also expresses concern for nearby Blackwall Keep which has traditionally served as the diplomatic point between the Lizard Folk Tribes and the Haddath Empire (and also its first line of defence should the Lizard Folk rise up).
In Samantha Steel’s second letter she mentions meeting and talking with Ardina who is a Zenitian of the Matriarchy of Zenita. In this letter Samantha Steel outlines what Ardina tells her as Ardina has in fact been sent south to gather information regarding the invasion for the Zenetian Matriarchy. Through Samantha Steel Ardina relates that the Zenitians, initially very concerned with the rise of the goblinoid threat have in fact realized that it benifits them. The Zenitians, along with the inhabitants of the Free City of Phrell and the Iron Clan Dwarves have all long felt that the Haddath Empire did not expend enough (or any really) effort in combating the Goblinoids of the Tribes. This has left these groups to take on the lion share of the fighting and it has been traumatic for all of them. However it turns out that the Goblinoids of the Darkwood are being massively reinforced by the goblinoids of The Tribes. Tens of thousands of goblinoids have been moving from the tribes past the Free City of Phrell and south into the Darkwood where they are presumably organized and then leave the darkwood to attack the Haddath Empire. This has been a boon to the Zenetians as it has reduced the number of Goblinoids in the Zenetians Jungle homeland and allowed the Zenetians to reclaim territory that they had lost in the preceeding century. However Ardina also related that the Zenetians learned about a command point just east of the Amazon Jungle which they believed was where the whole operation for gathering and organizing the Goblinoids of the Tribes was originating from. Samantha Steel speculated that the Haddath Empire could potentially gain two advantages if this command point could be destroyed. One would be that the reinforcements coming from the Tribes might be severely disrupted while a secondary advantage would be that once the reinforcements where disrupted it would no longer be in the best interests of the Zenetians to ignore the plight of the Haddath Empire. So long as the Haddath Empire was not pulling goblinoids away into the Haddath Empire the Zenetians might then be convicned to actually help the Haddath Empire possibly by sending forces into the north of the Haddath Empire where the Chin-Tuo are currently struggling against the Goblinoid invasion. Possibly this would require significant tribute from the Haddath Empire to make it worth the Zenetians while but at least at this point they could probably be convinced to help.
After looking over the documents the PCs convince Zerik Smoke that he should relocate with them to their secret base...but its already too late as suddenly the Grain Mill comes under attack...
[End of Session #10 of Telhran Inflamed]
The attackers turn out to be Dark Elves with several Driders and a large Displacer Beast in support. While the battle seems to start badly with Atalite and Gladness both rendered nearly inoperable in the opening seconds by blindness and damage. However once Mishan and Slick Rick make their charges the Dark Elves seem to start to falter eventually finding themselves each in turn focused on the threat in front of them they are never able to really set the PCs back on their heels and in fact suffer from a serious lack of durability as the PCs find that they might have powerful abilities but are not able to withstand the PCs onslaught for any length of time. The PCs are hindered by the noise in the Grain Mill which results in their not being able to effectively communicate but outside of one stand out situation where the Defender, Gladness, races off to help the Barbarian Mishan, leaving the way open for the Displacer Beast to home in on the Cleric Daneel the PCs mostly seem to get around the communication problems. While frustrated by the Displacer Beast’s ability to avoid attacks because of its illusion the PCs soon enough hit on the idea of just ignoring it so far as possible and drag down the rest of the Drow. After that they can take out the big Displacer Beast at their almost at their leisure and they do finally wining the fight.
[End of Session #11 of Telhran Inflamed]
The PCs search the Drow finding little of real interest and then convince Zerik Smoke to come with them, he readily agrees as its clear that his hide out has been compromised. The PCs return to their secret base as its now getting late and retire for the night.
Day Seven: (1st Earthday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
When the PCs awake they find that Zerik Smoke and Blessed of Hern seem to be gone. Their is some concern that their secret base is very nice and secret but if it where located they really need an alarm system of some kind. Fortunatly it just turns out that Zerik Smoke and Blessed of Hern are up in the Chariot Room where Blessed of Hern is convincing Zerik Smoke that he really is not a prisoner and that the PCs don’t have bad intentions. Now convinced that he is with the ‘good guys’ Zerik Smoke tells the PCs that the documents he gave them written by Samantha Steel where not the only documents he was given. He gave those up knowing that Samantha Steel was trying to get people to know about them but he also had a document that he was given by The Great Hero’s and while he was not sure if its importance he was holding it back. He know hands it over. The document is about the history of the Ice Witch Igwilv from the perspective of the Iron Clan Dwarves and describes their first encountering her when she was just another Icewall Barbarian and two further encounters when she had become something more including her creation of the Ice Shard, her home, and her binding of Devils and slaying several Metallic Dragons and raising their corpses to defend her tower. Presumably the Great Hero’s got their hands on this document while investigating Igwilv as there is documentary evidence that Igwilv supplied the good dragon ichor that where one of the components in turning Lizard Folk Eggs into Draconians for some kind of payment. Zerik Smoke also gives the PCs Samantha Steel’s Demon Bane sword which he took off her body as he was fleeing the assassination attempt on the Princess’ Swords. The PCs also ask him what the next step for the Princess Swords was going to be and Zerik explains that the Great Hero’s had convinced Samantha Steel to look into some one called Heldane Crafter as they had come to believe that he might be some how significant and yet did not feel they could afford to investigate what might be a wild goose chase when their where clearly other important missions.
With no more Princess Sword members to save the PCs are now much more relaxed in their endeavours, eating full meals and getting adequate sleep. Nonetheless they do have some loose ends to wrap up. During the morning they hear rumours that indicate that The Great Hero’s had returned to Telhran. Apparently they teleported back to the city and spent the night with the nobles of House Cuplet and then reported to the Emperor early this morning. Word has leaked out of the Citadel of the West that the Great Hero’s plan to mount an expedition to rescue Princess Veluna from Xak Chanrath in the Curse of Night. Its all anyone is talking about and the people of Telhran are ecstatic over the prospect of the return of the much beloved Princess. Unfortunately for the PCs it still seems improbable that they will have a chance to talk to the Great Hero’s as they teleported out of Empire Square shortly after their meeting with the Emperor.
Day Eight: (1st Freeday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
The PCs decide to pay a visit to Eligos the Sage in order to get some answers to questions they have regarding the documents they have recovered. When they arrive and are seated Eligos tells them that he is almost done his research into finding out about Heldane Crafter and Mordev Zugmatov and he’ll have answers for them in regards to those questions in a few days. He can answer general questions about other historical elements based on his extensive knowledge of history and such during this meeting but nothing to esoteric. The PCs ask about the Salt Marsh Lizard Folk and Eligos relates that they once battled Sahuigan and humans in the vicinity of the Saltmarsh and that they became allies with the humans of the Haddath Empire when the humans helped them defeat the Sahuigan. There is a fort nearby their lands called Blackwall Keep that is garrisoned by Old Haddath as part of the ancient treaties between the Saltmarsh Lizard Folk and the Haddath Empire. Its not been heard from since the goblinoid invasion. Eligos also mentions that the Lizard Folk community in Telhran has swelled with Saltmarsh Lizard Folk in the last year and they might have more information on recent events.
The PCs ask about the Giants of the Haddath Mountains and Eligois confirms that he has heard reports that they might be massing and preparing for war. He suggests that if the PCs would like to strike at the Giants then they ought to travel to the town of Frell near the Haddathian Mountains. There they would be able to find the kind of mountian men who could take them to some of the Giants lower holdings.
Finally the PCs ask about Pax Tharkas and Eligos explains that it was a dwarven fortress built when Old Haddath was first conquering the lands that now form the Haddath Empire. These lands where inhabited by elves and dwarves and halflings etc. at the time and when the humans of Old Haddath had driven them back many fled to the Darkwood. Pax Tharkas was built by dwarves during this era and meant to be both a fortress and also a place to create weapons and armour for continuing the war with the humans. However the war never continued and in fact the Halflings as well as their allies including the Dwarves that had made Pax Tharkas found themselves battling the ever increasing numbers of goblinoids that infest the Darkwood. Eventually, hundreds of years ago, the Halflings where forced out of the Darkwood eventually becoming subjects of the Haddath Empire while the Dwarves etc. that remained likely returned to their kinsfolk further east. Pax Tharkas fell during this period and became a major prize among the Goblinoid tribes, changing hands every so often. Last reports are from around a century ago so all information regarding Pax Tharkas is out of date. However the PCs have a document that would seem to indicate that The Chosen are paying for slaves brought to Pax Tharkas so they likely control it now and if they do its Dwarven Forges are likely critical in providing better armour and weapons to the generally primitively armed goblinoids. If the PCs want to go to Pax Tharkas they’ll need to move through enemy territory and then find some way to get into Pax Tharkas itself.
After getting this information the PCs head out for dinner before heading back to their base but are intercepted by an individual who has paid one of Slick Rick’s waifs to locate them. He explains that his name is Thorin Lakestrider, a member of the Nautical Guild, and that he is actually looking for the Princess Swords because the Great Hero’s visited the Nautical Guild yesterday and delivered several things for the Princess Swords. However he has been unable to locate the Princess Swords except that he knows that their leader Samantha Steel was recently murdered and that the PCs, Wojtek’s Investigators, are in investigating this murder. The PCs convince him that they do in fact know something about the Princess Swords and convince him to take them to the Nautical Guild. At the Nautical Guild the PCs find that the Great Hero’s have dropped off a large (Minatour sized) thing-a-majig that the members of the Nautical Guild seem to barely recognize as something for guiding ships. One of the members of the Nautical Guild comments that their is something like this in the Imperial Museum while another member notes that he has seen such devices when he was in North Pandar on ships being built there to cross the Eastern Ocean. Their is also a fur lined journal that was apparently recovered by The Great Hero’s while they where attacking a Minatour base on the Ice Wall. Daneel manages, with a few false starts, to convince the members of the Nautical Guild to let them take the thing-a-majig and the journal with them and they will deliver them to the Princess Swords. The PCs spend part of the rest of the day with Slick Rick trying to see if he can locate a North Pandari in Telhran that might understand the thing-a-majig.
Day Nine: (2nd Starday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
While Slick Rick continues to orchestrate a search for a North Pandari with knowledge of ships the PCs also investigate the Imperial Museum. Unfortunately no one in the Imperial Museum can tell them anything more then they already know about the thing-a-majig. It was once used by Haddathians for Ocean Going voyages but that was long ago prior to the Haddathian Civil War and no one currently understands how it works. The PCs look over the journal but they can’t understand its language. They take it to Eligos but he is of the opinion that there is no one alive on Haddath Island that is likely to be able to understand a language spoken by Minatours from some far off land located in the Western Ocean. The PCs then hit on the idea of paying a visit to their old acquaintance Gwendolyn Dew who owns Gwen’s (small) Critter’s & Rituals. She owes them for saving her shop from an outbreak of her critters. Gwendolyn Dew appears to have recovered nicely from that set back but she remains grateful to Wojtek’s Investigators for their help and gives them a ritual that will let them decipher the journal. It turns out to be a Captain's log of a Minatour ship called Wyvern’s Tail and details the trials and tribulations of that ship and its captains. While interesting in itself as a look at a far off civilization from the perspective of the PCs its important for a number of reasons. One it mentions that the Minatour leader was visited by a human riding a Dragon which, it seems likely, might be the living Chosen that the PCs have some documents mentioning. It clearly shows some kind of a link between the Chosen and the Minatours. It gives several examples of Minotaur expeditions breaking apart when the leader of the expedition dies which indicates that if the Minotaur leader could be killed then they would probably cease their attacks on Haddath Island and return to their far off land. It also indicates that the leader of the Minotaurs has returned to a fort on some tropical island after a mix up where a large number of Minotaurs abandoned the expedition. So the PCs know where the leader is located in a rough sense. Finally it has lots of astrology (actually astronomy but Haddathian PCs would not know the difference – astronomy is essentially a lost art) in it that might be used with the thing-a-majig to locate this tropical island.
Day Ten: (2nd Sunday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
Slick Rick continues to try and locate a suitable Pandari, today is a lousy day for his investigation however as there are a bunch of mess ups and frustrating false leads. Some kind of miscommunication has waifs and such looking among tanners and soldiers where they are never going to locate a Pandari with knowledge of the sea. The PCs visit Eligos the Sage who has finished his research on Heldane Crafter and Mordev Zugmatov. While their they let Eligos borrow the journal to make a copy of it and they learn that Eligos has been repairing and outfitting the Ocean Empress. The ship the PCs recovered for him that was filled with strange animals that would probably only be found in a lost world type location these days (i.e. dinosaurs). Eligos agrees that they could be the ones to take the ship but first there needs to be some way of actually finding the Minotaur base.
In regards to Heldane Crafter Eligos explains that while he has searched high and low in the library there simply is no be mention of a Heldane Crafter in print. Mordev Zugmatov though does have a few references from way back. Mostly in an old form of writing called a daily which was a series of articles (mostly full of lies and distortions) that used to be created every day using a device that made copies of the writing quickly. Since the devices main purpose seemed to be to distort the truth Eligos is of the opinion that its a good thing that the practice eventually came to an end leaving the important practice of reading and writing to professionals like himself. In any case their is evidence that a Mordev Zugmatov was an officer of some kind in the Old Haddathian Army about Three Hundred and Fifty years ago during the Haddathian Civil War [See Chapter Four: A History of the Haddath Empire on Drive for more details of the Haddathian Civil War]. He switched sides and became a cavalier though not a particularly prominent one. After the Civil War ended there are reports of a sizable manhunt being conducted for him by the Cavaliers in the lands of the Chin-Tuo. Apparently he was wanted for massacring peaceful communities of Kezeus worshippers. Eligos notes that the writings he has seen seem to stress the surname Zugmatov. Its clear that the writers place some significance in that surname but he is stumped why that might be. He’s never heard of a Zugmatov but the surname is definitely not South Haddathian nor Chin-Tuo so its not Western Human. Does not really sound Heldani or Pandari but closer so it probably is southern human. Quite possibly from the southern continent maybe from southern humans related to the Pandari and Heldani but not closely related. Could be an expat as their are southern humans on Haddath Island that are not Pandari or Heldani though not many. Some seem to stay every time the southern trade fleet docks at either Telhran in the Haddath Empire or Blood Citadel in North Pandar. Still why the name was particularly significant is none to clear. In any case if this Mordev Zugmatov had it in for the worshippers of Kezeus then maybe the PCs should pay another visit to the High Temple of Kezeus in Tehlran.
Day Eleven: (2nd Moonday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
The PCs return once again to the High Temple of Kezeus at Tehlran where they meet with Odak Thundercaller. They explain that they are hoping to find information regarding a Mordev Zugmatov in the records and are still interested in Heldane Crafter. Odak Thundercaller explains that about a century ago their was some kind of purge in the ranks of the Church of Kezeus, before his time so he does not know the details except that at this time the Church of Kezeus in Tehlran was made the administrative heart of the Church of Kezeus in the Haddath Empire and all the records of church membership and such where transferred to Tehlran though most of the really important artefacts of the church remained in Xak Merrith. However while the records where transferred they where never organized and there is a huge basement filled with piles of papers and such that need to be sorted and organized. Odak Thundercaller is unsure why the first few leaders of the new High Temple of Kezeus did not undertake this task. All he knows is that his immediate predecessor was in fact starting on this a few years ago when some crazed mass murderer attacked the temple and killed pretty much everyone. That was when he was promoted to Patriarch and sent to Telhran along with a bunch of new clergy from other parts of the Haddath Empire and while he had been planning on continuing his predecessors work there was just never time considering that he had to acclimatize all these new clergy members to life in the huge metropolis of Telhran and reassure the congregation after the brutal attack. However if Wojtek’s Investigators think that these names might be important he’ll prioritize this task, since it needs to be done in any case, and keep an eye out for correspondence mentioning Heldane Crafter or Mordev Zugmatiov. However its a huge task and he thinks it will be six weeks to two months before things will be even in some semblance of order.
At this stage it seems clear that the PCs attempts to follow Heldane Crafter or this Mordev Zugmatov that Heldane Crafter was apparently looking into are at a dead end for the moment. They’ll need to do something else for some time. However while taking lunch at Tasty Tillie’s it comes to pass that Slick Rick’s network has finally come through. They are introduced to a Challi Assam, a North Pandarese smuggler who was caught by Blood Citadel smuggling weapons to the Free Cities of North Pandar and thrown into the dungeons. She escaped with help of some sympathizer’s and made her way into exile in the Haddath Empire eventually making her way to Telhran where she has made a living working for a moderate sized merchant family that specializes in the fishing. However she was once the captain of a Pandari smuggling ship and she knows how to use the astrolobe (thing-a-majig). The PCs retrieve the astrolobe and their journal and she spends the rest of the day doing calculations with it. By this point she is convinced that she could take the PCs to the co-ordinates of the minotaur island base.
Day Twelve: (2nd Godsday of Fireseek, 850 Year of Dragon’s Fury)
At this stage the PCs would seem to have everything they need to try and decide what they should do next. They debate and argue among themselves but ultimately decide that their next objective is to go to Pax Tharkas. For one it would seem to materially help the Haddath Empire if they could destroy the dwarven forges presumably supplying the goblinoid armies...and they also believe that they might have a document that would entitle them to more then 5000 gold from whoever controls Pax Tharkas. While they are preparing for this expedition however Pollard, Eligos manservant, shows up at their secret base and tells them that Eligos would like to speak to them again. They once again head to Eligos mansion. On the way they hear announcements, apparently from the Seat of the Western Throne, that law and order has finally been restored to Telhran thanks to the tireless efforts of The Watch and the soldiers of the Imperium (it has in fact been five days since the fight in the Imperial Grain Mill and Spider would seem to have gone to ground). Eligios presents them with three items. A silver plate loaded with Gemstones. He explains that he has been to the Citadel of the West (aka the Seat of the Western Throne) and was told that these were to be given to Wojtek’s Investigators. There are 8000 gp worth of gems on the platter. Eligos was never able to figure out if Wojtek’s investigators where being officially rewarded by the Seat of the Western Throne or if it was a gift specifically from House Silistine who currently holds the Seat of the Western Throne. He was also given a box with House Cuplet markings on it for Wojtek’s Investigators from ‘an anonymous benefactor’. Though the markings of House Couplet on the lid do kind of give the game away. Eligos notes, when the PCs go to open the box ‘It is said that when nobles go fishing they use gifts’. Inside is a Crown Jewel of Old Haddath [in 4E terms a Crown Jewel of Chessentia]. Finally Eligos relates that while he was in the Citadel of the West he learned that The Great Hero’s had returned once again and been to see the Emperor. As there is no sign of Princess Veluna he fears the worst and it seems like the Seat of the Western Throne is sitting tight on the news that the Great Hero’s have returned for fear that the common people might learn of it. In any case he was given a letter for the Princess Swords which he now gives to Wojtek’s Investigators. Apparently the Great Hero’s found this while they where in Xak Chanrath inside the Curse of Night. The letter is clearly dated as it talks of a time when Xak Chanrath was not under the Curse of Night which struck in 847. However it mentions an alliance between The Chosen and the Lord of Hate and that The Chosen are all undead except for their leader who is alive and rides a dragon. Apparently a Cavalier named Azurath Stormshore was following up on a deliberate massacre of Kezeus worshippers when he located a Temple to the Lord of Hate in the Darkwood. An Old Temple which he felt was unusual as the Lord of Hate only fairly recently Ascended. There are living Dwarves who remember a time before he was a God.
The PCs take their rewards and then continue preparations to leave Telhran heading for Pax Tharkas.
[End of Session #12 of Tehlran Inflamed]
[End of Chapter Ten: Telhran Inflamed]
My Monster Modifications
So I've decided to create a document listing out how I'm modding my monsters at this stage. Now other DMs have their own choices they need to make in this regard. For me its a case of dealing with a party of 6 PCs who are all moderately optimized. They are not to crazy in this regard but they do tend to take the best powers and such. If I had only 4 PCs I might tone this back - the fewer PCs around the weaker the whole group is irrespective of anything else.
I break my changes down by tier as well. Bottom line is I find that Heroic Tier works pretty well but I think even with the better late 4E monsters the Monsters tend to feel on the weak side as the PCs progress into Paragon. I might well get this feeling even more when we get to Epic but I'll wait until then to decide what I'm going to do.
All Tiers:
The Monsters worst non AC defence is dropped by 3.
The Monsters best non AC defence is increased by 3.Paragon Tier:
All Monsters get +15% to hps
All Monsters attacks versus non AC defences get a +2 to hit (making them the same as the attacks against the AC defence)All Tiers:
Soldier - leave as it is.
Brute - Leave as it is.
Lurker - Leave as it is (this becomes the worst monster class)
Artillery - Modify all ranged damage by increasing the damage die by 2 categories (add +6 damage instead if the category would be higher then d12) and adding an extra damage die. Add a further +3 to hit with all ranged attacks.
Controllers - After the initial modification to the non AC defences above (making the worst even worse and the best even better) add a further +3 bonus to all non AC defences.
Skirmisher - Increase hps by 15%.
Dragons (all tiers): Another +3 to all defences and another +15% to hps.
Poll on Combat Style
So a number of posts above I commented that I had taken things to far and my players where complaining about some of the large complex combats that where chewing up multiple sessions to run and making the game less fun for them.
I left off from that sort of combat for a number of sessions, easy enough because the adventure I had been running actually did not have any more of these big complex encounters in it. So after a slew of sessions that did not feature this style of encounter I decided to get a closer handle on how my players felt about encounter styles and made a poll about the topic. What I was trying to get a handle on was essentially Allied NPCs in the combats and particularly combats that features large numbers of allied NPCs. Essentially big encounters that might feature lots of Allied NPCs like playing out a slave revolt or defending a tower alongside the military garrison or something like the PCs on a ship that is attacked by a pirate ship and playing out that whole scene. I actually had to address the topic a couple of times because my players kept answering questions unrelated to the specific point I was looking to get at. Part of this was my fault – I was severely biased and maybe did not initially ask the question properly and part of it was my players fault sense they kept dodging the more difficult element of the poll to tell me that they liked fun encounters…which I had kind of figured out even before the poll…I mean who the heck does not want a fun encounter?
Once we really delved into what my players liked in encounters I found the feedback interesting if not really what I wanted to find. The answers where pretty diverse. I had two players that essentially said that for them everything boiled down to their PC doing awesome s&!! and any game time that did not present an opportunity for their PC to do awesome s*%+ was not at all desired. Interestingly one of the players initially claimed that he felt that was what everyone, or at least all the players, actually wanted. Though he was reasonably quickly disabused of the notion that this was the single motivating factor for everyone though everyone did in fact agree that their PC doing awesome s*#~ was a really fun element of the game. Not that this was a surprise for me – when I was a player I liked it when my character did awesome s*+~ too and even as a DM its certainly fun to really f@!+ with your players with a potent monsters power.
Personally I, as the DM, really like encounters that are as big and dramatic as possible. Things like my players leading a revolt or my players defending a tower with the rest of the military garrison really excites me. I love how the players are worked into the circumstances of the campaigns story and in fact I think this is a real strong point of 4E in that it allows this integration extremely well.
I then had a player that had a kind of interesting split in his response. Took me a bit to recognize that this player is a real modeller and such and the idea of say a fight with a pirate ship really interests him if he got the chance to make models of the ships but if its just me making something like the mines where slaves are kept then his interest drops off.
I had two players that where not to keen on a bunch of NPCs in the encounters but made exceptions for NPCs that they had gotten too know in some sense. So if the NPC was one they knew the name of without DM prompting then having him in the combat was good but otherwise they felt encounters should usually not be taking away from their PCs exploits.
Finally I had one player that liked encounters to be designed just like I did. Big and complex with lots of NPCs to control really interested him and he liked that his character was part of the world as a whole.
Ultimately this feedback is useful though I’m unhappy that the result did not better line up with my personal preferences. I’ve commented a bunch of times about how 4E is so good at doing this style of encounter and here my players are mostly telling me to steer clear…bo hiss says I.
After reviewing all the data and talking with my players the general gist was that the vast majority of encounters should feature just their PCs and the opposition while NPCs can be included if they know the NPCs personally and once in a long while, maybe once per two adventures, there can be a big NPC intensive scene.
Part of my problem here is that I can really think of five major scenes like the above in my campaign though three to four times that many that had a handful of NPCs. However for the big scenes only one was really spectacular. This scene in a Temple that involved the players getting to do a ‘tower defense’ including using a bunch of supplies to make their own traps and a phenomenal element where one of the Players agreed to serve and evil Goddess for pure power that had huge impacts on the fight. I really pulled out all the stops in that encounter and it was widely considered fantastic. However I followed that up with a battle scene with a charge that blew chunks when it turned out that the minion rules resulted in the bad guys killing all the players minions on the first round of combat. Something that totally ruined the immersion and cool factor for my players and really soured them on the scene. Personally I was not too unhappy in that after that we developed better minion on minion rules but for my players the scene itself was more important while for me learning something to improve future scenes was a significant factor. Then there was a reverse dungeon that was OK but the dungeon had never been made specifically to host a reverse dungeon and a bunch of flaws reared their ugly heads damaging that encounter. Again I wrote the whole thing off as a learning experience and moved on while my players appear to have felt that it was more example #2 of why these big encounters don't really work. I then really pushed the extremes of non-interactive with this big encounter in which only one PC was actually involved while the rest of the players ran the NPCs for what was essentially one players spotlight moment (and the player in the spotlight did not even particularly seem to be all that excited). Yeah - don't do this was the lesson here. Finally I ran what was just a really big fight in which the players controlled their guys and a small army of NPCs against a really large attacking force. The lesson here was simply scaling up for no real reason was a bad idea. After this my players started complaining and really in retrospect I can see that a significant part of my problem was that I had done five encounters and really only hit a major high note in one of them.
For me this was simply a case of experimenting. I’m the sort of player and DM that is always chasing that ultimate scene. I’d be willing to play through a slew of kind of weak encounters always chasing after that one really epic scene that stood out so much that we are still talking about it years later. Nonetheless its quite clear that I’d have been getting much better feedback if far more of my big epic encounters had really been awesome. That’s hard to pull off though..I never made one of these encounters thinking they had no chance of awesomeness. I was not sure the first one would be so epic nor did I realize that any of the following ones would fall flat. These types of encounters are large and complex and its not easy to predict ahead of time whether it will be totally cool or not. Still it appears that I’m going to have to be better at getting to awesome for my future encounters along this lines because I really need to put my best foot forward for the few encounters of this style my players are allowing me or they might start insisting that I don’t do them at all…and if I can really hit the high notes my players will likely be more forgiving if I increased the number a little beyond once per two adventures. Personally I’d like it to be more like a scene like this once per adventure. This has me thinking about such scenes in the future and instead of going at it as a pure experiment I had better have an idea of why it will be awesome from the start and then work to make that happen if I am to be allowed to keep up with this style of encounter.
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I've run a couple of these big, multiple player-controlled NPC encounters myself in my campaign. I started using the multiple NPCs because the PCs were fighting a series of massed battles, and rather than actually doing massed battles they became a series of combat vignettes. But it seemed a bit silly for the PCs to be just there by themselves. Although I haven't had specific feedback as such, my players probably have mixed feelings about them. My main aim as a DM is to have players rolling dice and participating as much as possible, as I've found the main thing that players don't like is sitting there while everyone else has all the fun.
I think that the main issue, therfore, with these big set pieces is that the gap between individual players' turns is large, because each turn is quite long - the PC, then the PC's ally and then maybe some PC minions too, have to rolled. This can take a long time and the other players can get bored waiting. I think it's better that the players do this rolling since most players love rolling and there probably isn't much time-saving, if any, for the DM to do it, it risks DM brain overload of having to run the opposition and the allies, and players watching a DM rolling dice for ages isn't any fun either.
I also think that some players just don't really care to roll for anyone other than their character. DMs are, by definition, more interested in things like encounter design and so on, but I have several players who never DM and maybe never have in 40 years of playing. So they really don't care for all this complexity. All they really want to do is, as you so rightly put it, have their PCs do awesome s$%@. That's a difference in mindset that is difficult to get over.
And some players are just not organised, and are normally pretty slow at running just their character. Giving them NPCs too can lead to brain overload for them. Some players in my group are better than other is this regard.
My approach to it, which I definitiely do not consider to be representative of perfection, is as follows:
1. Assign a significant NPC to a particular player, and reuse that NPC in several fights so the player gets used to their capabilities. I've designed most of them as Allies per the DMG2 rules, although one is a rejigged monster, to keep them very simple to use. Similarly, have any minions assigned to particular players so they get used to what they can do. How you allocate them is up to you - I went complementary (a striker with a defender, and so on) but it depends on the dynamics of the game and the players' preferences.
2. Try to find as many ways of reducing the periods between PC turns as possible. In combat, we have the PC, NPC and any of the player's assigned to a single initiaitve score (the relevant PCs) so we know whose turn is coming us, for example, as this is tidier. Encourage them to think of their turn before it's their turn. Identify things that slow the game and make sure they are addressed ahead of time.
3. Don't use the minions too much - that can slow things down even more (at least, until they die).
4. Multiple foes rather than a biggie - quite a good chance to use multiple solo monsters since the main issue with solos (the PCs crowd and stomp them) is less of an issue when there are several of them.
5. Don't do this too often.
The best time I used this was when we were down a few players and the encounter I'd planned was quite big and they needed some back-up (and the complementary aspect also worked quite well here, to cover some competency gaps). I don't think there was a worst time as such, but some of the combats did grind a bit. One, which was quite a good one to be fair, involved a fight with four solo monsters all at once (with three not that powerful compared to the PCs - three dracoliches - and one about the same level as the PCs - a demigod of my own design) and it took a session and a half to complete, which is unusual for us.
I actually did some of this in my scenes. Mainly I did realize that handing the allied NPCs over to the players was a good idea and did do some work on the NPCs to make sure that they where reasonably easy to run.
I'd say my big issue was one of scale...big scale...and once things had gotten to the point where my players where calling me on it then it became an issue about having NPCs at all. If I had kept things down to just a small handful of NPCs in some of the battles then I probably would not have had a problem.
My problem was partly that I realized that 4E could essentially be a skirmish game with the PCs included with a slight tweak to the minion rules and that can be exciting for me as a DM but less so for my players. There where a bunch of scenes with 40+ creatures on each side and to get away with that the encounter had better be really awesome. Mine where not - or at least not often enough...and now my players have unionized!
Ye Olde Dungeon
So the first half of the next adventure my players are heading through is a dungeon and I found myself designing one that actually felt like something that might be called a classic dungeon. Not actually my intention when I sat down to make this thing but maybe something of a natural progression once I considered what I wanted this to be like and what I definitely did not want. This got me thinking about some of the key elements of classic dungeons and how that relates to modern versions of the game.
It was really a process of elimination of removing what I did not want that I think led me to creating something that really feels like a classic dungeon. Probably the single biggest driver to this classic dungeon feel was a desire to use out of the ordinary monsters. The very first step in making this dungeon was, I guess, deciding that Pax Tharkas was one of the options my players could choose from for their next adventure but that step was made, in some sense, so long ago I don’t even remember it and it as a possibility was dictated by a desire to have continuity with previous campaigns. Well that and the basic premise of Pax Tharkas is a good one – ancient Dwarven Fortress with an Elven Wing being used by the evil armies with lots of slaves. PCs infiltrate through dungeon of the Elven Wing and then free the prisoners and lead an army of slaves back to freedom.
This background dictates the basic premise of the adventure. So I sat down to design this Dungeon knowing that it was originally Elven but after that I was pretty free to do what I wanted with it. My very first step was actually choosing the monsters. Even before I had a map or any other element in place I went through my monster manuals looking for interesting monsters with the main criteria being ‘can’t be friggen basic humanoids’ as every chance I get I need to use not basic humanoids because they are so prevalent in the rest of the campaign.
Actually did not quite manage to escape using any humanoids as it had been pointed out to me that I have not used any undead in the campaign pretty much ever and ancient Elven Fortress seemed like a good opportunity to rectify that. Nonetheless it was interesting monsters where I started and that alone starts one on the path of ‘classic dungeon’. While its true that many classic adventures are themed in some sense the real classic idea of a dungeon is this miss mash of monsters in the dungeon. My starting by choosing ‘cool’ monsters and then weaving them into the story of the dungeon fits that classic feel.
The next step in my building this thing was picking out a map. Looked at the original in Dragons of Desolation. Pax Tharkas is awesome but the Elven Wing part is pretty uninspiring. Well no big deal – I was planning on trying to make some use of my 4E books in any case and went through a bunch of them and found some map that was originally supposed to be a Yuan-Ti burial site or some such that I liked the layout for and thought I could repurpose. Pretty much just copied the map in Gimp and then designed what the rooms where originally for before the Elven Wing had been abandoned. At this point I pretty much decided where my monster groups where to be found on the map. At this stage I have the basics for my dungeon, between the monsters that are now living here and what its original purpose was gives me essentially the basics of a story line and in this case I know that the Elven Wing was abandoned when Pax Tharkas was overrun by goblinoids but that there where elves that became undead trying to use forbidden magic to defend it as well as that the wing was always a fortress and the Elves activated its defenses before they left.
This however leads me to the second element to my ‘classic dungeon’ feel. Essentially these elements mean I have a dangerous local that adventures explore. If one thinks about it that is one of the key elements of classic D&D dungeons. The PCs are exploring a dangerous local full of not just unusual monsters but also it contains mysteries, dangerous traps and ancient treasures. The main point is the PCs are exploring and it’s the lack of this exploration element that tends to define more modern adventures compared to the classic versions.
The 4E delve format, in particular, veers away from this exploration element. Instead the delve format focuses on what is really a series of self-contained encounters. While the delve format is the worst offender in this regard 3rd edition makes this classic design difficult as well because of the way levels are gained in 3rd and 4th. When I decided on the exploration element it dawned on me that the only reason this was really possible was because I don’t bother keeping track of XP. The PCs level when they get to the secret door that leads into Pax Tharkas itself. However it is this XP element that really makes the classic dungeon difficult to do in modern versions of the game. Part of the reason dungeons have become a series of linked scenes is because the XP system says that PCs get a level after X number of encounters. The thing is a trap on its own is not enough to constitute a real encounter. It is to weak to be more then a minor speed bump and yet it hands out XP. The result it that the ‘hostile locale’ is discouraged because they hand out lots of XP in minor pseudo encounters that are not really difficult enough to justify the XP gained. In 4th it was, at least until the very end of the edition just not how adventures where officially designed – I mean the XP for a pit trap is very low so one certainly can’t make a real encounter out of that because one cannot ‘use up’ the XP budget.
Technically one can do this sort of thing in 3rd and there where some classic feeling adventures (The Greater Halls is maybe the prime example) but once one digs down into the fundamentals of 3rd edition its actually more difficult to design. The thing is with 3rd the PCs are not really under any true resource constraint vis a vis the dungeon – not in reality anyway. 3rd edition PCs have stacks of cure light wounds wands that, for all reasonable purposes, means they have unlimited health. If one thinks about it in some real sense the dungeons, all of them modern or classic, are pretty much about using the limited resources at the disposal of the PCs and seeing if those limited resources, used well, can overcome the dungeon. If one has near limitless resources then the dungeons challenge rests not in the exploration phase where PCs might encounter a trap that does a bit of damage to them but only in the larger encounters where the PCs might not be able to bring their limited resources to bear effectively.
Now to be fair 3rd edition groups do have a resource limitation but it is not in their PCs health which is endless but in the spells of the spell casters. Still spells are not really a resource one usually uses against a trap of some kind. If the trap is big enough and nasty enough possibly but as a general rule 3rd edition dungeons can’t really attrition the PCs to death. In essence the 2nd element of the classic dungeon ‘exploration’ is not just good flavour text (which is perfectly possible in the modern versions of the game). The defining feature is that this exploration has dangers that attrition the PCs (as well as treasures an such that they can find).
4E dungeons can because healing surges are an absolute cap on PCs health – though by official rules no one would make an exploration based dungeon because of XP constraints.
However for the homebrew DM using the simple and very popular house rule of not bothering with XP and just leveling at appropriate points in the story allows one to return to this style of adventure when playing 4E. Admittedly you’ll also need to find some way to make it so the PCs can’t take endless long rests but then that problem is not edition specific – one can do the whole ‘sleeping in the dungeon’ thing in 1st as well and as I recall we did. If the 4E DM can get the PCs onto some kind of reasonable time constraint then the healing surge becomes the key resource the PCs are expending to overcome the dungeon (or more accurately it’s the resource they are trying not to expend).
Now I’ve established that its possible to do this sort of adventure in 4E with a fairly small tweak to the rules…the question remains as to whether one actually should. Does it make for good gaming basically? On that I’ll have to make another post after my PCs have actually gone through my ‘classic’ Dungeon.
Ye Old Dungeon...mechanical conundrums part two
So above I commented that at least on a theoretical level exploration based (i.e. classic) dungeons faced issues in 3rd and 4th edition though I felt that if one skipped tracking XP then 4th edition was not to bad for classic exploration dungeons.
My PCs are closing on the end of this classic dungeon and when they get there I'll do a post on how that went. However for the moment I came upon something in terms of mechanics that have thrown things for a bit of a loop.
What is an Encounter?
This is important because one gets an action point after every milestone and a milestone is something that happens after two encounters.
So what is an Encounter?
Hmmm...actually I don't know the answer to that. Not really. The Rules Compendium is vague and I don't have the DMs Kit. There is the DMG of course but its out of date a little and out of date a lot so far as I'm concerned when it comes to actually running the game.
I suspect that an encounter is pretty nebulous in any case. I mean I know that if I use the XP budget to make a level appropriate encounter then I have an encounter. The question that I really want to know is whether or not one has an encounter if when the XP being doled out is not even close to level appropriate and I have a feeling that if 4E was a computer then this would elicit an error message.
4E seems to recognize that there are encounters that are not at all dangerous and that such encounters don't count toward a milestone. Then their are encounters made out of level appropriate XP budgets and these do count toward milestones.
However its the area in between that is more complex and the area I'm interested in. Are Skill Challenges Encounters? How about ones that can't harm you but may determine where the PCs move on in their adventure? Is a puzzle an Encounter? How about if the puzzle can only give you a reward but never hurt you? i.e. it gives out treasure if you solve the riddle but has no effect if you don't.
What about minor traps? If the chest is poisoned and on a hit it does ongoing 5 poison to one PC that is notable but pretty weak to count as an encounter for the whole party.
In the end I figure I'll just more or less extend the DM Fiat element I've been going with in terms of XP. Really I still use XP budgets to make tougher encounters so those are encounters and otherwise it might be an encounter if it is particularly dangerous. Everything else is probably not an encounter unless there is some adventure based reason why I want the PCs filling up on extra action points.
Dragging down the Dragon(born)
Name: Mishan, Male Dragonborn
Class/Level: Barbarian 12th
Adventure: Pax Tharkas
Catalyst:No Safe Zones.
The PCs have been exploring the Elven wing of a Dwarven Fortress that was long ago stormed by goblinoids and is now a major base for evil forces who have thousands of slaves that they have been forcing to make weapons and armour for their goblinoid armies. They are trying to find a secret way into the complex so that they can free the slaves and stop the forces of evil from using the fortress to arm goblinoids.
The current rulers of the Dwarven Fortress do not know about the elven wing or its secret entrance but the ancient elven complex has become inhabited by various monsters that lair there and is guarded by Elven defenses activated when the Elves fled the Fortress centuries in the past.
Deep in the complex the PCs come upon a now dead garden of the elves which is now inhabited by Vampiric Mist drawn to the sadness and desolation of this location, the heart of the broken dreams of hundreds of elves from long ago. To get to the room the PCs bypassed a hallway filled with elven traps but having found the way to bypass the corridor as opposed to neutralizing it they leave themselves with no easy retreat route.
When the PCs first enter the dead garden the Vampiric Mists are not visible having concealed themselves in cracks and such in the floor, walls and ceiling. Choosing to insure that the room has no exits or treasures that they might miss the PCs start a thorough search.
Now scattered about the room the Vampiric Mists make their presence known by appearing also scattered about the room. Turns out this is pretty much the ideal circumstance for the Vampiric Mist as they have a nasty aura that does damage but also does not allow those in the aura to spend healing surges. With the PCs and the Vampiric Mist scattered about the room its impossible to get out of the aura and its difficult to arrange a retreat from the room with the way blocked by traps. Further the Vampiric Mist have push powers so PCs that try and get out to the corridor run the risk of not only being hit by Vampiric Mist attacks but also of being pushed into the traps.
Beyond this the Vampiric Mist have a nasty close burst that goes off when they are first bloodied and yet they don’t have that many hps. The net result is a phenomenal wave of damage as the PCs start getting hit by attacks and aura’s, then the PCs start attacking the mists and bloodying them quite quickly which results in more damage and yet the PCs can’t spend healing surges. Ultimately Mishan, the parties Barbarian, just kept getting hit and with no access to his powerful healing surges he is soon dropped. Forced to make a death save with the house rule that a 1 is insta-death he got unlucky. Normally the party has contingencies to handle this situation by being able to make rerolls on death saves but in this case the parties cleric was to far away to be able to help the Mishan and was dazed in any case and so could not make an immediate reaction. There was another circumstance right after this as the party’s Warlock/Swordmage also dropped but with damage flying around so fast the Vampiric Mists where not long for this world and would be mostly wiped out by round 3. There where a few tense death saves where a 1 would have spelt the death of a second character but in the end that did not occur and the battle was over before there was ever much of a danger of the Warlock/Swordmage flunking 3 death saves.
A surprising death even for me. I did not recognize how nasty this encounter was until the PCs where in the middle of it but the death is right about on time. My players had not seen a death in a number of adventures and where becoming quite complacent and beginning to believe that death was no longer something they really had to worry about so I pretty much welcome the kill as a reminder to the players that they are not immune to death.
That encounter sounds awesome.
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Cool thread, thanks for sharing your experience!
On the topic of encouraging mobility in encounters, it's easier in 4e than 3rd/Pathfinder, but players will never move unless you nudge them.
Here are some things I've used to nudge players, roughly from the obvious to the incredibly gamist.
Secondary Goals - Create situations where the PCs are hung up on the enemy's defenders. They need to disrupt the ritual or break the crystals that make the solos immune to everything or whatever. Anyone or anything that spawns or heals monsters basically becomes this instantly. On a lesser scale, just put some soldiers up front and some artillery/controllers using terrain in the back.
Hit-and-run - Skirmishers are designed for hit-and-run attacks and can keep your back-line-characters on their toes, but don't usually make the whole battle move. It really needs to be combined with something like regeneration, enemy healing, or a status effect that won't end until the skirmisher is killed to draw the party along.
Conflicting Formations - Throw enemies into the same battle that encourage different formations. The easiest combination is usually melee hitters (or skirmishers) and area of attack ranged enemies. It won't always hit the right balance, but when it does, the party will move quite a bit as they try to adapt to the situation.
Disrupt Formation - Drop in an enemy with some serious forced movement. At least three squares, probably more, like the grell you mentioned. A brute knocking back the defender or an explosion pushing everyone away from the explosion point can suddenly make a battle a lot more chaotic. Works best if the monster has allies that can move forward to take advantage of the situation.
Move the keystone - I can't speak to your party's composition, but I've found I can move the entire party by moving a key member and immobilizing them. Moving the tank and knocking them prone often means the rest of the group is moving up around him while he stands back up. Similarly, if the healer gets moved, everyone's moving with him.
Evolving Battlefield - Just because PCs won't move doesn't mean the battlefield won't change. Something as mundane as a sinking ship or burning building can can mandate or strongly encourage movement. Magic and other planes obviously open up more options here. That said, these are a pain to run, so I don't suggest doing them often.
Portals - An easier to handle version of an evolving battlefield is one with evolving portals (so it can be mapped meaningfully). They might move on their own, but monsters using temporary portals to move around is easier to keep track of and gives a better flavor in my opinion. So they can follow through the portals or basically give their opponents free reign of the battlefield.
Laying Down Zones - A favorite trick of MMOs for this is having enemies create damaging zones with their attacks. A lingering breath weapon or even a puddle of burning oil can encourage people to shift around. Obviously, bigger and longer lasting areas are better.
Pariah - Whether they caught the necrotic plague or are just so on fire that other people near them are also damaged, giving players damaging auras is hilarious. You don't want to do it often, but the scramble is great when you do.
Time Bomb - Again, one that you don't want to use too much, but an area attack that triggers at the beginning of an opponent's next turn can be great. Kobolds bombs, delayed blast fireballs, gates to the void, or whatever. The best part of these is that nobody should get hit, so you can go nuts on the damage.
For some of the latter ones, they might actually slot in for interesting draconian types. If a draconian type creates a cloud of deadly gas that lingers until the end of the encounter or explodes for ridiculous damage the round after it drops, any battle with those guys can suddenly become very mobile.
Anyway, I hope some of those helped!
Cheers!
Landon
These are all good ideas and the Pariah is just brilliant. I've not been having as much of an issue with mobility in encounters as I was back when I was complaining about it. My feeling is this is largely a function of the PC group design. At the time it seemed like the party was very, very, good at saying 'bad guys can't move' - couple that with a range focused party and most of the time things loose their mobility.
This is a really tricky issue for the DM to overcome. Having enemies that can move the party does not work if the party can make them not move and having enemies that will try and move themselves is pointless if the PCs will make them not move in any case. This really leaves only a very few options. Mainly the circumstance where the place they are is not good but even that is only interesting if its some how significant. Having all my players walk 4 spaces to the left is not that big a deal and is not really a solution to the non mobile combats.
However as I mentioned at the start of this post. A few player deaths and a retirement as well as some more levels and my groups 'style' has significantly morphed. Quite possibly the Draconians where a big part of that. The Draconians really did force the players to move - they are your 'time bomb' in some sense so I think that got the players focusing on different style powers. For one thing I'm not certian they ever realized how good it was that they could so strongly make it so the enemies could not move. It just sort of happened so they never had much to judge it by. At this stage in any case the party actually seems to be focused on making the enemy move and have some pretty mobile builds themselves.
Nonetheless your list is a good one - even if one is not facing a particular problem with movement it is still always a good idea to have elements like the ones in your list in the conflicts.
As a side note if you ever want to use skirmishers and you have not used them before in 4E crack out some Quicklings. The ultimate in hit and run skirmisher.
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These are all good ideas and the Pariah is just brilliant. I've not been having as much of an issue with mobility in encounters as I was back when I was complaining about it. My feeling is this is largely a function of the PC group design. At the time it seemed like the party was very, very, good at saying 'bad guys can't move' - couple that with a range focused party and most of the time things loose their mobility.
Glad you liked them! Also good to hear things have sorted themselves out.
This is a really tricky issue for the DM to overcome. Having enemies that can move the party does not work if the party can make them not move and having enemies that will try and move themselves is pointless if the PCs will make them not move in any case. This really leaves only a very few options. Mainly the circumstance where the place they are is not good but even that is only interesting if its some how significant. Having all my players walk 4 spaces to the left is not that big a deal and is not really a solution to the non mobile combats.
Yeah, it's much harder to disrupt formation when the monsters can't move. Even if you knock people clear across the map, it just makes it a ranged battle for a round, rather than forcing interesting melee situations.
As a side note if you ever want to use skirmishers and you have not used them before in 4E crack out some Quicklings. The ultimate in hit and run skirmisher.
Of late, I've just been mining 4e for ways to spice up my Pathfinder battles, but they look like mean little buggers!
Cheers!
Landon
Cool thread, thanks for sharing your experience!
On the topic of encouraging mobility in encounters, it's easier in 4e than 3rd/Pathfinder, but players will never move unless you nudge them.
Here are some things I've used to nudge players, roughly from the obvious to the incredibly gamist.
** spoiler omitted **...
I love some of those ideas. Great list.
As a side note if you ever want to use skirmishers and you have not used them before in 4E crack out some Quicklings. The ultimate in hit and run skirmisher.Of late, I've just been mining 4e for ways to spice up my Pathfinder battles, but they look like mean little buggers!
Cheers!
Landon
I've actually never used them as a DM. Just did not come up in the right level range but I have fought them as a player. They are just awful. They run in, run right around all the defenders and such, hit the mage and then they run off and by the time your turn in the initiative order comes up they are three rooms over. Then they come back on their turn and do it again.
I know they are a great monster because I still remember the little bastards and its been years since that encounter.
Running a Classic Dungeon
So my players have finished off with my classic dungeon mentioned above. I define it as classic in the sense that it had disparate monsters living in reasonably close proximity and had elements like traps and treasure that where not themselves linked to a ‘built’ encounter.
Truth is it felt reasonably classic but nothing to much stood out as some kind of 4Eism. The most standout element was the issue with when an encounter was or was not an encounter for the purposes of working out milestones and I’ve addressed that in an earlier post. Otherwise it was not that different from a delve. Sure it’s a delve with maybe more thought placed into the background of the local then is normal and it’s a delve that features significant trap like elements that are not exactly an encounter plus its played through without recourse to pre-designed ‘battlematts’ for the encounters. However all of these differences are mostly pretty minor. In the end the major encounters where built using a 4E XP budget and followed roughly with the idea that I placed encounters in the adventure up to about what I thought my PCs could handle. Hence this was really mainly just a delve.
Now that is not to say that I thought it was a bad adventure. I actually liked it a lot. On a personal level I did not face the issue I faced way back when I did the Sapporo Caves where the adventure felt inauthentic. This was an authentic feeling local, I covered the bases here, and I felt that it added at least a little to the running of the adventure. My players came to understand that they where in a lost elven fortress and got a bit of a sense of the history of the location and what had happened here. However I probably should not fool myself into thinking that this was somehow a big deal for my players. At best they felt a little more sense that they are adventurers in a fantasy world then with the bare bones Sapporo Caves…but realistically this was a minor detail for them…It was a bigger deal for me sense I like well laid out adventures.
Certainly my players enjoyed most of the monsters that they got to fight but then the whole design of this place was all about the monsters and there where a slew of fun ones here. The adventure was pretty brutal in terms of attritioning the PCs of resources – with all the PCs noting that their healing surges where being used heavily and the parties cleric really down to fumes for the last few encounters.
All that said my players proved to have quite a heck of a lot of resilience. They hit just about every encounter in the adventure despite the fact that one was avoidable by not stealing the elven burial artifacts (and the PCs argued among themselves about taking them or not…but greed won out). The other encounter that could have been avoided was an Elven Lich near the end of the adventure which the PCs seemed to recognize part way through the encounter that they could have avoided it…but they choose to keep fighting it I think mainly because they are having fun. This is a weird juxtaposition with the players having fun while their PCs are not. I made a pretty mean Lich. A solo that had lots of pretty potent and diverse magic powers all of which it could use with minor actions. I was all over them with this Lich and the player with the job of tracking all PC hps (my players have designated some one to track their hps alongside individuals tracking their own hps for coordination purposes…helps them dole out the healing better – bit of an odd role but if that is what they want to do…) freaking out that everyone is about to drop.
That Lich gets me to two really stand out encounters in this dungeon (the other being the one with the Vampiric Mists where the Barbarian died) which is not to bad for a delve type scenario. Though that does tend to emphasize my problem with this type of adventure – We do six combats to get two that are real nail biters. Not sure my players had that much of an issue with this however…or at least the fact that they where tracking their surges going down seemed to compensate.
Still final verdict is that it was a delve with more exposition from the DM then normal between encounters.
Back to Trying to Push the 4E Envelope…
Having put my players through something that turned out to be more a Delve then anything else I’ve gone with something that emphatically is not a delve for the second part of the adventure.
If we consider a delve, as I do, as a series of encounters stringed together, done more or less based on a series of XP budgets…well this is not that. In fact, except for the initial, ‘you’ve leveled’ warm up encounter I never during the creation of this adventure even bother calculating the encounters XP budgets. Its pointless to do so because the design of the adventure means that I’m not going to control what the PCs face in the encounter or how they tackle it.
The basic idea is that I have got this huge Dwarven Fortress that fell long ago to goblinoids. Now its been taken over by mid level forces of the UPE who are using it as a base to make weapons for armies of Goblinoids that have been invading the main country of my homebrew. It is full of slaves from the captured cities and towns that have already fallen to the invading goblinoid armies. Now this is not a small number of slaves we are talking about. There are upwards of 15,000 slaves in this complex and they are split up doing various activities that ultimately come down to mining ore and then fashioning the ore into crude weapons and armies for the goblinoid armies that pass through the fortress on the way to the front.
What I have done is designed the fortress and outlined how it works day to day. Where the food comes in, what the slaves do, how they are being controlled and the forces that are controlling them as well as designing the counter measures that the slavers would take to deal with a slave revolt.
The design of the adventure is such that it very much hands the inititive to the PCs. They should be able to pretty easily disguise themselves as slaves that carry food and water around the complex and these slaves have free run of the much of the fortress. In effect the PCs can get a pretty good idea of how the fortress works and they have the drop on the fortress defenders. They can act whenever they feel they are ready, they can do so with surprise and they have access to a huge army of slaves if they can overcome the various counter measures the slavers have taken to brutally crush a slave revolt. They also can access a ton of various supplies in the fortress fairly easily as the fortress supply rooms are locked to keep the slaves out but picking the locks should not be too hard. Furthermore the PCs, or at least the sneakier ones, can probably get a certain amount more information about the fortress by sneaking into areas that slaves are not normally allowed but which are not that rigorously patrolled.
In essence I’ve designed a large complex situation and then allowed my PCs complete leeway in how they plan to handle it but I’ve left them facing all sorts of competing demands in trying to launch a slave revolt that has all sorts of counter measures that might involve the slavers either breaking the slave revolt (they are holding the slaves children as hostages to insure good behavior) or result in many thousands of slaves being slaughtered (wherever there are large numbers of slaves there are measures being used to keep them in line). Finally there is a danger of all the fortress defenders being warned when the alarm is raised and possibly managing to rapidly simply crush the revolt in full or in part. So the PCs have the initiative, have access to resources and can get a pretty good idea about what they are up against. However what they are up against is large and complex.
I went particularly crazy in that I never bothered designing a solution. I did not set out to make the task impossible by any means but there is no ‘correct’ answer. The whole point is there is no one correct answer – it is up to the PCs to come up with their own correct answer.
Because this is so non-standard I never bothered with encounter XP budgets. In a lot of cases if the PCs get the drop on the enemy its one hell of a forgone conclusion. For example there is a hobgoblin patrol that moves back and forth through the fortress. Its made up of 8 minion hobgoblins…a total joke for the PCs to beat…except that if the patrol does not show up after a fairly short period of time the fortress will begin to react as if their might be a slave revolt and if that happens and the PCs have not otherwise set things up to deal with the hostage situation and various other counter measures it’ll turn into a disaster.
We’ll soon see how this whole thing plays out with my players. I’m both excited and terrified. I’ve pretty much set it up so that my players are going to have to plan and strategize in order to pull this off. I’m really curious to see how they handle that element. I expect that some players will be more into it then others but it will be informative to learn if most of my players are nodding off while one player makes a plan or if it’s the other way around with one player nodding off while the other five make a plan. I don’t think I’ve ever really given them quite this much latitude in an adventure before. I guess we’ll see if they are up to it.
Adventure Historical Compare and Contrast Part One
So in my last post I outlined how I was stretching some of the concepts of 4E adventure design. Here I want to look at that idea and compare it to some elements of the history of the game as the base of the adventure I am using is Dragons of Flame.
This is one of the early modules in the original Dragonlance Saga. I suspect I’ve mentioned before how influential Dragonance was to my home brew. Really it was a pretty seminal series of adventures in terms of Dungeons and Dragons in general. Dragonlance can be a fairly polarizing series of adventures as it has been, correctly in my opinion, pointed out by others that Dragonlance holds a critical place in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. I’ve read it argued that it was with the release of Dragonlance that was pretty much the shift in Dungeons and Dragons from Gygaxian D&D to Hickman D&D. This is the point in the game that things shifted from simulationistic Gygaxian Naturalism to what might be called Hickman narrativism. It’s a dualism that remains alive and well in Dungeons and Dragons and its derivatives, notably Pathfinder. Though the modern versions of the game often take elements from both sources and mix and match. Pathfinder has both the strongly simulationistic elements that underpin much of 3rd edition and yet Pathfinder derives much of its popularity from the extremely well written Adventure Paths that Pazio creates and an Adventure Path is essentially narrativist at their core. In fact one might argue that Dragonlance was really the first Adventure Path. There where linked modules before Dragonlance but they where generally Gygaxian in nature hinting at underlying stories that came to light through exploration based adventures. Dragonlance was the first time real narrative adventure design was front and centre in the telling of the story.
Now it must be said that Dragonlance really shows off the fact that it was in some significant extent the first of its kind. It fails as an Adventure Path mainly in that it has great difficulty in figuring out how to move the players and plot forward without resorting to extremely awkward prods and making the players play specific characters in order to play Dragonlance was a pretty large flaw in the series design.
Hence Dragonlance was exceptionally influential in bringing about the story heavy adventures that dominated the first half of 2nd edition and that influence stretches forth through to the modern versions of the game but the proto-adventure path was pretty weak in many respects as an adventure path. All that said they would never have been so influential if they had nothing going for them. Taken individually the Dragonlance modules where often exceptionally ground breaking in introducing locals and concepts that where really larger then life. In its own ways Dragonlance pushed the envelope of what Dungeons and Dragons was and could be in a significant number of ways.
For me personally Dragonlance was hugely influential as it came out, and I fell in love with it, right about the point when my home brew was transforming itself from a nebulous ‘adventure place’ of the early D&D campaigns of my youth into something that was more of a full fledged world. Spend any significant time looking at my campaign world and the Dragonlance influences can be pretty easily spotted…admittedly if one looks at it even fairly cursorily and one pretty quickly starts to see 1st edition Gygaxian influences as well and a good hard look will even reveal some 3rd edition influences as the campaign world tended to get a major update roughly around the time when each new edition came out and there was such an update after the release of 3rd edition.
It is in fact these influences that resulted in Dragons of Flame being in the campaign world. The reality is that some form of Dragons of Flames fallen Dwarven Fortress has been sitting in the campaign world since the first time I outlined the whole thing.
However the fact that the Dwarven Fortress Pax Tharkas existed in the campaign world was just a kind of footnote until this point in this campaign. I mean I’ve had plans to use it repeatedly before this but it never worked out for one reason or another. Finally, however, I was in a place in my campaign where it was going to feature front and centre.
Adventure Historical Compare and Contrast Part Two
So I'm was finally digging out Dragons of Flame to use it as the basis for my own version. Of interest to me and the subject of this post is a compare and contrast of the original with my interpretation. The original Dragons of Flame starts off by having the Heros of the Lance meet with one of the named PCs of that adventure series (Tika) and then they are subsequently captured. Very much on display are a number of problems with the whole Dragonlance series of adventures in this initial beginning. We have kludges to try and force the PCs to go where the adventure wants them to go. Then we have the adventure introducing what is supposed to be a PC, after some adventures have already been going on…I wonder what the DM was supposed to do? Recruit a new player? Tell one of the players to sit things out until this scene? Finally we have a near forced capture scene…love to see how the DM was supposed to get that to work out. Really if I wanted my PCs captured for an adventure these days I think I’d just halt the game and tell the players in the meta game that this was what was going to happen…but I’d really seriously hesitate to do a PCs captured scene. Very difficult to pull off – to the point that it’d have to have a pretty huge payoff story wise before I’d even consider it. A better option for the DM is likely the ‘fake capture’. Get the PCs to ‘infiltrate’ the organization by getting themselves captured. This way they’ll facilitate the process for you.
Obviously looking at this I quickly decided that there was nothing really in this part of Dragons of Flame that I could use. Instead I had this part of the adventure run as a road adventure and set up and foreshadowed what would be my conclusion to the adventure by highlighting the desperate military straights the forces of good are in my campaign world. Featured a few interesting combats along the way as well, one with flying enemies and another that was really a chance for the players to show off how kick ass they are by wiping out a whole column of goblinoid minions.
The next part of Dragons of Flame had the Hero’s of the Lance sneaking into Pax Tharkas through a kind of secret but abandoned elven wing that now featured some monsters. I looked over what had actually been created and decided that this was a pretty weak version of a dungeon and I could do better by designing the whole thing from scratch. I’ve outlined this endeavor in posts above.
Finally we get to the heart of Dragons of Flame. This originally had the Hero’s of the Lance getting into the fortress, meeting the slaves, finding out that the slaves where being kept in line because their children where being held hostage. Dragons of Flame essentially assumes something that is kind of linear for this part of the adventure. Basically a kind of, almost cut scene, involving the PCs sneaking the children out and then its on to what appears to be a pretty standard ‘dungeon’ in that the fortress defenders are fairly small in number and it appears the PCs would more or less just meander through the fortress killing all the bad guys. This did not really work for me though I definitely used some of the basics of Pax Tharkas.
In fact my Pax Tharkas is extremely similar to the original. I pretty much used the original map except that I added some elements that where not in the original adventure, mainly filling out the eastern tower but a few other bits as well. Still the bottom line is I used the original map with something close to the original furnishings for the most part. This is no real surprise to me…the fact that there was a Pax Tharkas in my campaign world is fundamentally because of this map. That was Dragons of Flame’s real selling point. Pax Tharkas was awe inspiring when it was first released and it remains awe inspiring to this day.
Plot wise there are some similarities to my version and the original. Essentially I took the original inhabitants and more or less just replaced them with analogous versions from my campaign. Dragonlords are replaced with ‘Chosen’ the two dragons in the original are still dragons in my version though their name, personality and type are changed. Their role in the adventure remain pretty similar though in one of the cases expanded. Both versions had hobgoblins. I even had a version of Toade and the Gully Dwarves from the original. However I went a number of steps further. In part because I’ve got a 13th level adventure here and the original was something like a 6th level 1st edition adventure. So I’ve added a slew of Wartrolls and the number of Hobgoblins was massively expanded and represent elite Sappers meant to hold this key fortress for the bad guys and overawe the rest of the goblinoid armies passing through. All this to justify 12th level minion hobgoblins that would still pose something of a challenge for my players.
I’ve included the slaves that where in the original but I’ve massively increased their number from maybe 600 in the original to around 15,000. This is because I want these slaves to form the basis for a kind of campaign defining hero moment for the PCs.
I also choose to use the children as hostages scene from the original but in this case had it show off elements of how my ‘Chosen’ control dragons for background purposes and used it to add another interesting element to the PCs plans for initiating a slave revolt. They learn early on that the Dragon guarding the children is not innately evil, but is under some kind of magic domination and if its ‘Chosen’ rider is killed the Dragon would actually switch sides and help the PCs. The problem of course, for them, is freeing the Dragon becomes just one more competing priority in their planning.
The sneak the children past the dragon element was an interesting element as well. In the original it was pretty much a cut scene. It worked whenever the PCs tried it pretty much automatically except that the Dragon would wake up when the operation was just about complete. This sort of cut scene is a real Dragonlance-ism. A real narrative element in a game system (1st edition) that does not really have mechanics for handling this sort of scene.
4E however excels in just this type of scene – this is a skill challenge if I have ever seen one and that is what I create here. One catch of course is this scene display’s the problem with Skill Challenges as well in that I had better know what happens if the PCs blow it and I better make it a ‘fail forward’ type of scene. The dragon roasting all the children is not really an option for my adventure. Reality is I’ve rigged it so the PCs should really be able to handle this Skill Challenge. Its all medium DCs and my PCs should be able to manage that at their level with their ability to reroll results or otherwise modify the dice. Even if they mess it up they’ll likely just find themselves either trapped with the children until the Dragon falls back asleep (could be a few days) or be forced to accelerate their plans as the Dragon is now awake.
All in all my version is not so far from the original’s auto success. Its actually more a case that my PCs don’t know that and are likely to think they are much cooler then is in reality the case…unless they go through the Skill Challenge rolling 1-3 none stop…then they’ll see through the facade and realize it was rigged…failure does not result in them loosing the adventure (which would naturally be their assumption when they initiate the operation)…hopefully I don’t have to put ‘fail forward to much on display. It’s a good DM trick but not really the best when it is clear to the players that they catastrophically failed and yet the end result was not catastrophic. Of course I suppose I have the option of having catastrophic failure be catastrophic – that’d be some Gygaxian Naturalism right there…but nah. I’d rather the adventure go on.
Finally we get to what I outlined in the previous post. My version of the rest of this adventure after the kids are slipped away is significantly different in that I leave the whole thing up to the players to plan how they are going to successfully wrest control of the fortress from the bad guys… but it sure is not going to be a simple case of just haphazardly wandering around killing all the monsters as that would almost surely result in them loosing or winning at an extreme cost in terms of slaves killed.
The final part of the adventure in the original had the PCs fleeing with the slaves. Not actually all that sure how it turns out because that is beyond the preview of Dragons of Flame and would have been dealt with as the starting part of the next adventure in the series. I can’t be bothered to try and find my copy of the next adventure. It just does not matter how it originally turned out because I have my own plans here involving the PCs now having a huge army of slaves that they can lead out into the campaign world. Here we get a series of scenes where the PCs can finally be the Big Damn Heros and make a big impact on the campaign world.
I do this part as another Skill Challenge modified by their actions such as whether they have a Dragon in their army because they where able to free the one in the adventure and their other decisions. Back during the initial road adventure part of this adventure I outlined the dire military situation the Empire was in at the start of this adventure and at the end of it I have my PCs at the head of a whole army of their own. I have high hopes that this will play out in an exciting manner and give my players a real sense of ‘we are so awesome and finally our awesome nature will be recognized by all these NPCs’. Players usually love that sort of thing. Lets hope it all works out. If they do fail the Skill Challenge it’ll be another case of fail forward. In this case the slave army still wins the battle but losses are so high that in the end the remains of the slave army will essentially break up.
Presuming the skill challenge works out for the PCs the very nature of a slave army presents an opportunity to pull the PCs away from the army when the adventure finally wraps up. After they lead their slave army to the decisive battle, presuming they win the skill challenge, NPC army leaders will step forward and say essentially ‘your awesome and thanks for saving our hides – now we need to turn these slaves into real soldiers through endless drill”. My PCs should pick up on the idea that its time for them to leave the slave army in the hands of veteran drill sergeants and head back to the capital for the next adventure.
Getting the monsters right as the levels go up
So at the beginning of the second part of my most recent adventure (Pax Tharkas, described above) I encountered a kind of interesting incident. When I can I try and give my players a pretty basic straight up fight for their first encounter after gaining a level. I’ve touched on the perils of failing to do that much earlier in this thread – it essentially seems to make ones players happy if they get to test out their cool new powers in something that is hard but reasonably straight forward – as opposed to some nasty trick encounter which leaves half of them dazed or dominated throughout the fight and unable to realize their builds.
So I had a pretty good encounter planned – one that would fulfill this goal and yet add to the plot of the overall campaign by highlighting the factionalism within the evil forces and allude to some of the larger mysteries of the Adventure Path.
However in designing this I did not realize that I had made an error in my bad guys in the sense of not looking carefully enough at their composition. Essentially the fight had a couple of elite baddies and 3 standard baddies. The elites where a powerful priest and a powerful divine mage like character. The problem was that in their retinue was an Angel of the evil god they served. This in itself was not a problem. This is a powerful group and their having an Angel was no real issue, my players are getting up their in levels and this is the sort of creature they will be fighting more and more.
The problem was that the Angel was a standard monster…Truth is Angels, from the Monstrous Compendium are standard monsters…but they really should not be. An Angel by its nature is like a Lich or a powerful Vampire or a slew of similar iconic creatures that really should just not be ‘run of the mill’ and that is really the fate of all standard creatures in 4E.
4E makes the differences between a minion, standard, elite and solo monsters really stand out and players generally have a pretty good idea what type of monster they are up against. Nothing at all wrong with this…in fact I’d argue that when it fits expectations it reinforces the concepts behind the monsters in a manner that is very evocative of fantasy expectations.
The problem only comes about when the DM uses one of the types of monsters in a manner that does not fit those expectations. In this case my players entered the fight throwing a ton of very powerful stuff at the Angel and then, fairly quickly, discerned that it really was not that much of a threat. At this point they figured that Jeremy was just trying to trick them and boy had he – sucking up their dailies on a monster that looked nasty and which they fully expected to be brutal but was in fact a pretty minor participant among the gang they where fighting. Truth is, of course, Jeremy was not trying to trick them. If I had really thought about it when I was making this encounter I would have realized that the Monster Compendiums choice to make Angels standard monsters was the wrong choice and would have gone about turning the Angel into an elite…I just did not think about it.
None to happy about where this leaves me as well – I’ve now established that Angels, in my campaign world, are pretty minor creatures (albeit high level ones – so minor for powerful hero’s) and I sure did not mean to do that. I mean I can probably reverse that easily enough by simply presuming that it was a minor Angel and there are much more powerful versions around but still this was a mistake.
Its one that I’ve actually been struggling with more and more as my players rise in levels. There really is a pretty sizable shortage of good high level monsters in 4E to begin with and its really compounded by the fact that most of the monsters that are around at this level are pretty powerful iconic creatures most of which probably should not be ‘just standard monsters’. Its becoming increasingly difficult to fill the campaign with good opposition, especially the more run of the mill kind of opposition.
4Eisms and higher level monsters
Following from the last post has me thinking about the dearth of higher level monsters in 4E. Especially the necessary ‘filler’ monsters. 4E has a pretty reasonable number of monsters in the upper ranks of Paragon and on into Epic for end boss type fights. It’s the four or five fights that take place before the end boss fight every level that is the difficulty.
Of course this is not really new to D&D. There have always been an absolute ton of lower level monsters and only a handful of the really high level really powerful monsters. This worked reasonably well in 1st and 2nd edition because the system was not as extreme in terms of needing ‘at level’ monsters. You could get further simply by using an endless stream of lower level monsters and, up to a point, this would work in terms of attritioning the PCs down. Maybe more importantly high level was just not that common in 1st and 2nd edition. The amount of XP required to make high levels was just phenomenal and it stayed roughly that way at every level (though 2nd edition had some weirdness in some of the monsters – I recall Demons and Devils handing out insane amounts of XP that seemed way more then was appropriate…something to do with how the XP was calculated).
In any case the result is that players had to put so many years into getting to high levels that campaigns just tended to die off before the issue really got out of hand. Plus, eventually, there came to be enough monsters of such levels to pretty much handle the issue.
3rd edition (and even more so Pathfinder) suffers from the issue as well but, for the most part, the issue is side stepped by the basic assumptions of the system. Essentially 3rd (and more so Pathfinder) has created the basic expectation that players are only going to get to so high a level and then the campaign is over. Its well recognized that the entire system starts to break down after around 12th level. The players are just to powerful the strains on the system are increasingly out of control. Pathfinder makes APs that pretty much all end around 15th level – at this level its simply time to wrap up the current campaign and go on to another one. The small number of truly powerful monsters exist only to provide opposition for a last adventure or two and then its all over.
This is one part of where this becomes an issue in 4E. 4E, more then any other edition of D&D, manages to keep the players powers enough in line that the campaign is not forced to end and yet its not so extreme in XP requirements that its inconceivable that players will eventually get to higher levels. The end result is that there is much more potential for the campaign to continue at the high levels and beyond.
Nonetheless campaigns being what they are 4Es history has contributed to the monster shortage. The reality is campaigns still have a tendency to end early and the designers have invariably focused the vast majority of their design space on lower level 4E games. Then we get to the fact that 4E was a short edition. It was only out and being supported for around 5 years – so there has never been enough time to really build up a large stable of high level monsters. Finally we have the fact that monsters in 4E changed and improved so much near the end of the edition. Meaning that a big part of what stable of monsters that where created are not really usable for the 4E DM because they are out of date and badly designed. Thus the perspective 4E DM looking at the handful of good 4E monster books has little to choose from.
Of course there is a tad more if one is willing to put some time and effort in monster creation…one can convert some of the monsters from the few higher level 4E modules that where created earlier in the edition but there never where all that many of these. More likely the 4E DM whose players are going to continue on in Epic will have to resort to creating a whole lot of monsters himself. Doable of course but certainly more work then some basic conversions. Still when I consider it I do think there is at least something of a silver lining.
When it comes to high level play the DM really does have to consider what this means and how its supposed to work in their campaign world. For example the basic 4E conceit is that such play takes place on different planes of existence predominantly. That is a conceit I’m not interested in really emphasizing. Sure I might have my players popping off to the Abyss or some such for a couple of the higher level adventures but by and large I like to keep my campaign centred on my world so my campaign choices will have to handle that and such a choice means carefully considering the role of really powerful monsters in my campaign. I mean one really does have to ask oneself what 23rd level cannon fodder does in its spare time...certainly the answer can't be - interact with the other inhabitants of the plane. Something has to keep the high level standard monsters away from all the other creatures...up to the DM to decide what that is and why for their campaign.
My Players Counter To Solo Recovery Powers
So I mention above that my PCs fought a Lich in their final encounter of the my ‘classic dungeon’. This encounter stood out for me in that it displayed something that I am given to understand is a 4Eism. Basically speaking the Lich was a major pain in the PCs collective rear ends when it got to go. It had lots of powers it could use to really mess with them and it had a slew of ‘half damage on a miss’ type powers. It was phenomenal with them in a 'I'm a Solo' type way because I gave it access to this sizable list of spell like powers with each of them only costing a minor to activate. So when the Lich had all its actions it was brutal - chain lightning then fireball then some kind of dominate. However it was the miss effects (usually 1/2 damage) that really stood out in my group because they have a tendency to deal with major solo’s by driving the creatures hit chance through the floor with penalties to hit. This is a powerful tactic because a penalty to hit is not a condition – the bad guy can’t save out of it.
Here though my players where finding that their usual tactics where not working because of the ½ damage on a miss effect when used by a Lich that hit them with 3 such powers that would include 3 or 4 PCs each was still screwing them royally.
Their initial counter of using stuns and dazes to keep the solo from tearing them apart does not work well because Paragon level solos almost always have a counter to this. In the case of the lich it had a trait that allowed it to end a condition on it at the beginning of its turn. This confounded the players but one of them suggested a counter that I suspect he had read about on forums and such. Pretty basic idea…stick the action denial power on the monster after it has gone through ‘the beginning of its turn’. This turned out to be pretty effective with the PCs managing to finally get the Lich to be locked down and unable to do to much on its turns.
Not sure what I think about this...at first blush it seems to get around the solo’s action recovery type powers and for that reason might well be very powerful. On the other hand there are other kinds of action recovery that get around this so its not something the PCs can just always do – it works against some enemies but not others and the PCs will need to find out on an encounter by encounter basis. Truth is I’m going to have to see more encounters of this type before I can pass some kind of judgement. It does help to explain why all the Dragons seem to have multiple points of activity in their turn, each of which has ways of getting out of action denial.
Playing 4E in Sandbox Mode
As an interesting experiment, and because I like nothing better then pushing the boundaries of 4E and seeing what it can handle I decided to have the second part of my adventure, Pax Tharkas, be a Sandbox adventure. I’ve outlined this intent above so this post is about how that worked out.
The take home message here is that I actually worked quite well. There was definitely some adjustment on the part of my players but they actually, for the most part, seemed to clue into the fact that they where in a sandbox fairly quickly. Now importantly this was not just a sandbox where the players could do what they wanted and wander into any encounter. Truth is that sort of thing is pretty easy for 4E. That is pretty much just design a bunch of encounters and the PCs can hit them in different orders. 4E has no trouble with that and it would not be pushing the boundaries.
Here what I had was the PCs with a mission (free the slaves, take over Pax Tharkas) and I had designed the entire complex and worked out what people where doing in it, importantly including what they would do if a slave revolt where to break out For my players the challenge was for them to identify what was likely to happen when a slave revolt started and then to devise, to the best of their ability, counter measures.
The real extreme here, in my mind, was that I did not devise a ‘correct’ answer. I simply worked out how the good guys (the slaves) and bad guys (the guards and current rulers of Pax Tharkas) would react under various circumstances, mainly if they encountered the PCs and if they thought a slave revolt was taking place.
The idea that this was not just a dungeon was maybe the first cognitive hurdle my players had to overcome but as they encountered the woman and learned that they could explore much of the place disguised as woman the idea that they faced competing objectives began to really sink in. In particular they realized that they had to handle multiple threats in both the eastern and western towers and that their where good reasons to try and come at this challenge from different directions.
Now I think my players did make one significant error in their approach in that they did not really make use of some of the PCs phenomenal sneak skills to get a better picture of areas of the complex that the women where not allowed in. That meant that they did not know the precise location of the Chosen (head honcho) who controlled one of the Dragons. They might have had an even more difficult time in their planning if the option of freeing a Dragon had been more clearly on the table – which it was if they had done a little better a job in using sneak to explore more of the complex.
Even so the planning element was, to my mind, a big success. My players went to town on this and spent a good two to three hours discussing plans Easiest DM session I've had in a long while - I kept meandering off to find a snack while they talked and argued among themselves. Now I was good about giving them big maps to plan with and this planning took place over two sessions so I came to the second session with their big map updated. Furthermore their was a certain amount of initial exploration and planning that took place on a smaller player handout. What I learned from this is, if you want your players to work with each other and plan stuff give them big handouts that they can spread over the table for everyone too see. The little one page handout meant only a couple of players where involved but the bigger the ‘planning surface’ got the more players joined in on the discussion.
Ultimately I only had one of my six players who was not really engaged and several that are often only partly engaged got right into this. One of them I knew was just going to love this – a real planner at heart – this player probably had more fun with this then any other session he has played in quite some time. Unfortunately for him my instincts tell me that I’d soon loose two, maybe three, other players who had fun with this as a unique change of pace but would grow board if it where a common occurrence.
All in all from the players perspective the idea of running an adventure in sandbox mode was a success, my players enjoyed the experience and liked the whole planning aspect quite a lot.
Playing 4E in Sandbox Mode (Mechanically Speaking)
I noted above that the sandbox version of the adventure was pretty much a hit in terms of how my players took the whole experiment. Here I’m going to consider the experiment from the perspective of how it interacted with 4E mechanics.
The standout element was one that I knew would be a feature from the point at which I planned the adventure. Their was no encounter levels in this adventure and, for my PCs, this entire adventure really ran as something close to two encounters, one of which was huge. They had fought an initial more traditional encounter at the start of the adventure and even used up some daily’s. In theory they had the opportunity to sleep before initiating the slave revolt, unfortunately that did not dawn on them until they where part way through carrying out their plans and by this point it was too late to stop and sleep.
Once things really started going and my players initiated their plan of action there where a total of 5 somewhat separate encounters but no chance to rest between them…so it was really quite a huge encounter and I had to remind a couple of players that a power, once used, lasted five minutes. This was important because there was some math involved in the PCs running from one encounter to another where it was determined that they would take about 4 minutes before they got where they where going and therefore if they started by using an ‘all encounter’ daily power it would run out before they got to one of the larger later combats. The first encounter of this string was slightly broken in that it turned out that the PCs Slave allies could really have taken the encounter on without the help of the PCs (PC allies maybe a bit too strong). Did not really do too much damage to the encounter however. The second and third encounters where just against minions and the third one in particular just did not really rate as an ‘encounter’ as the PCs had surprise on a mere 8 minions who all died before they knew what hit them. Fast and easy encounters however so no trouble…and each encounter was using up some surges and some encounter powers. The fourth encounter with most of the main powerful opposition was a real nail biter and I might try and reconstruct that in its own post as it was just an epic (if very long) 4E encounter that pushed the PCs to the very limits of what their characters could do.
After this I actually started to see some significant elements of what a real sandbox adventure was all about. My players just completely tapped out in powers and many of them nearly tapped out on surges find that they are still in this fortress and its still in the midst of a slave revolt. At this stage they want a short rest so badly but I’m reminding them that to get that they need to not be fighting for 30 rounds and that things are still taking place in this local so they will need to make that happen. As things start to heat up here we have the players back in planning mode about what they should do. There are still bad guys running around and the players are arguing if they just keep pushing things forward. I even get one of those meta game debates among the players as one of them argues to persevere as ‘Jeremy would not put in anything we can’t handle’. That gets shut down by some of the other players who, wisely notes, that this is a pure Sandbox and ‘Jeremy’ had no idea what they would do and he’s just responding…there is no garintee that they can handle the emerging threats and in fact after something of a chase scene The Head Honcho that had mind control of a metallic Dragon actually breaks across the complex – collects his Dragon and makes his escape with the players feeling like they are just not strong enough to take him on.
In some ways the mechanics here where essentially what a 1st or 2nd edition DM would use. Pretty much just sort of blindly picking monsters but sticking with ones that the PCs should have a reasonable shot against. In truth that is made somewhat easier with 4E. All the monsters have levels and I knew that so long as I did not get monster levels to far ahead of the PCs they should be OK. One the other hand the way this played out with the PCs forgetting to take a long rest when they could and then ending up in a long string of combats, unable to even take a short rest really meant they where truly plumbing the depth of their powers. Almost nothing was left at all except the at wills by the end and on a couple of occasions the PCs made the error of using lower level consumables that turned out to be mistakes because the low level consumables where no longer as good as even their at wills (usually because the consumable now had such a low to hit chance that they just missed the opposition). This both did and did not remind me of 1st or 2nd edition. The constant use of At Wills is kind of reminiscent of 1st and 2nd edition where most character classes do use the same attack every round, on the other hand the players where making their decision making based on an ever dwindling number of other powers through most of these encounters and that certainly was not 1st or 2nd edition with the possible exception of those editions spell casters.
All in all 4E was able to mechanically handle this type of sandbox situation. Of interest to me my 1st ‘Sandbox’ style adventure, The Tehlran Job, more or less ended up the same way with a huge fight that completely depleted the players of every single power they had and then just kept going. Might be a feature of this type of adventure though two examples could just as easily say more about me then anything else.
Some Skill Challenges and how they worked out
The most recent adventure also featured a couple of skill challenges, pretty much just two scenes that really screamed ‘Skill Challenge’ to me when I came upon them. In the 1st instance there was a situation where a large number of children are being held hostage to insure the slaves good behavior and the PCs need to tackle an iconic, though rarely used, scenario, the gate keeper for the children is a Dragon…a sleeping Dragon.
A sleeping Dragon just screamed skill challenge to me though its design proved more difficult then I had anticipated. Its hard to think of all that many skills besides stealth that really apply here though the fact that the PCs had to then sneak the children out meant that maybe more skills would come into play. The second Skill Challenge in the adventure took place after the PCs had taken control of Pax Tharkas and now had an army of 15,000 slaves (give or take) and were leading this army out of Pax Tharkas and into the war.
There are two schools of thought on this sort of skill challenge, one is that the PCs should be able to present any skill they want and come up with some rational on how it will be used and then the DM makes a roll. The other is that the DM picks out skills and writes a little vignette of a couple of lines on what the use of the skill use represents.
As a rule I find that the vignette method tends to give me better results for a number of reasons. First off it ‘stress tests’ the Skill Challenge, insuring that I have some kind of an answer for a wide range of skill uses. If I can’t think up good answers for all these skill uses then there is some chance that the scene I think will make a good Skill Challenge actually won’t. Secondly it means I have something to riff off of when the skill check is used and I have more ability to just go with the flow of the Skill Challenge. Finally it tends to mean that the scene is not so open ended or obvious to the players that they switch into the dreaded ‘beat the skill challenge’ mode. This is when your players start scanning down their character sheets picking out each of their very best skills and then trying to tell the DM how it is that they are using the skill. It always, always, feels horribly artificial. Avoid at all costs.
I had significantly different results with the two Skill Challenges despite the fact that both of them started without me outlining what the the use of each skill was supposed to represent. In the case of the ‘Sneak past the Sleeping Dragon’ Skill Challenge that one fell apart when the PCs came to the rather reasonable conclusion that they should not be the ones trying to get the children out quitly but that the children would respond better to the slave women going and getting them out. At this point the PCs where essentially just coaching the women and it stopped being at all clear what the rolls should be for if its not actually the PCs themselves doing taking the actions. Very soon after this it dawned on my players that they where in a Skill Challange and the skill scanning began…I shut the entire thing down the moment I recognized that this was what was taking place leaving them unsure if they ever where in a Skill Challenge (I like to keep this sort of thing kind of obtuse so they don’t recognize a Skill Challenge every time I start asking for skill checks). Not 100% sure what could have saved this Skill Challenge except not having the women around and that just did not work with the plot. I ‘might’ have saved it if I had recognized that the PCs might very well use the women in the scene and come up with some idea about how that should work but whatever the case was I needed more planning here to make this a good scene. As it was I just managed to get out without it becoming a bad scene.
On the other hand the ‘Lead a Slave Army into the War’ actually seemed to run rather well. Here my basic rule was that the Skill Challenge was divided into four parts, things the PCs did prior to leaving Pax Tharkas that would enhance their armies effectiveness, things the PCs did on the march to the great battle, things the PCs did in the hours leading up to the attack and finally things the PCs did while the battle was raging. My method for adjudicating each of these scenes was pretty much just to listen to what the players where telling me they where doing and then I’d pick out what I thought where the most significant elements and ask for rolls. This was free form but I had put some thought into what the army would be dealing with at each stage and the PCs where making logical choices on what they thought would work and it was all mixed in with a bit of role playing and changing scenes so the players never started acting as if they where in a Skill Challenge and it thus flowed quiet well. My only problem here, maybe, was that I had the PCs pick who wanted to make the roll for whatever Skill I was asking for and they only needed to make a medium check so my players never failed a roll…still it was a big Skill Challenge and maybe this was fine – these big 8 before 3 and larger Skill Challenges are hard to beat even if the roll required is not too high because there is always the possibility of just getting a string of bad luck.
All in all I felt this one worked quite well and suspect that even though it was free form a combination of me simply choosing what I thought was the most significant skill the PCs where using and the fact that their was a reasonable amount of foundation for this Skill Challenge made it work.
The bottom line here was something I've already discovered and this just reinforced it - you need to prep the Skill Challenges ahead of time. A good premise is not sufficient.
An Epic Battle
One of the combats in the Sandbox encounter really stood out and I wanted to delve a little further into that. Though this is more of a 'here we had fun' post then anything else.
The PCs have initiated the Slave Revolt and have in short order defeated a group of Wartrolls with the help of their slave allies, jumped a large group of Hobgoblin minions, where a couple of PCs really stood out with some huge blasts that just devastated the minion hoard in short order and fallen on another Hobgoblin patrol of 8 Hobgoblin minions with surprise and massacred them. The PCs have also not had a long rest and had an earlier encounter that used up a couple of daily powers. Hence by the time they hit this fight, having run from one end of the fortress to the other they are all down some powers. Maybe 30% of their power quota has been used up.
At this point they enter the balcony above the Throne Room where they know that the leader of the complex is located. This is a ‘Chosen’ which the PCs know in this campaign means a kind of Death knight that rides (and somehow mentally controls) a Dragon.
In the Throne Room is the Chosen sitting on the old Dwarven Throne, below him sleeping at a table is the commander of the Hobgoblins, an Individual named Toade (bonus points if one recognizes the name from the original Pax Tharkas) and 4 Wartroll Guards.
PCs have a surprise round but its an 80 foot drop from the balcony to the main room and its just too far for most of them to be able to hit anything. At this point the PCs hit on an interesting way to get down. They want to cast a Wall of Water that travels 60’ up and then dive into it.
Its actually somewhat unique in being a unique idea. My players actually don’t push the boundaries of what they can do with their powers very often…and when they do they are almost always trying to fly some ‘bag of rats’ type lame trickery by me. I actually had the impression my players did not think I’d allow this but it struck me as innovative and perfectly reasonable. So the PCs are diving into the Wall of Water to get into this fight…it’s a good start to an interesting combat.
As the surprise round ends The Chosen orders Toade to go and get some help and this sets off something that will be a major theme for the first part of the combat. The PCs trying to stop Toade from actually getting out the doors to bring in reinforcements.
I had designed Toade as a kind of weak Solo with the ability to use minor powers to give his allies actions. However for the first bunch of rounds the PCs always shut his powers down and by the time I have an opportunity to actually use his powers I choose not too because his not using offencive type powers has become part of the element of his schtick that is making him memorable for my players. With a Chosen and Wartrolls beating on them they get really into a ‘We love hating this monster’ vibe with Toade. He never does anything but promise his master, in a whiny voice, that he is going to get help and suck up hit after hit. The Players are bickering among themselves about ‘wasting’ powers on Toade who can’t even hurt them while the rest of team evil beats on them. Its driving them batty and I’ve figured out that the fact that Toade is not hurting them has become his real signiture…so I choose to not ever use any attack power he has during the battle.
Meanwhile I’m being pretty mean with the Chosen, Vimerak, revealing a plot point that comes with a powerful power for the Chosen (the PCs know they will meet more Chosen in the future). When the Divine characters lay on one of their many signature ‘nerfus maximus’ type powers on him he makes a speech that is more or less ‘You serve a God, I own one’ and then follows that up by demanding that his god make an appearance in some very condescending manner and voila – the presence of an extremely powerful evil entity permeates the room dazing every creature but the Chosen and those creatures immune to fear effects (save ends). But the real potent power here is that Vimerak gets a trait ‘The Chained God’ that removes all ongoing effects of a power currently on the him if that power had the divine keyword. The flavour here is that this ‘Chained God’ is simply countering the effects of the PCs Gods on Vimerak. From a meta-game perspective a power like this exists because I have found that my PCs have a ton of powers that lay down effects that are not conditions that really mess with my baddies and as we get into the higher levels I need to start to, at least some of the time, use powers that nullify these effects (most often ongoing penalties to hit or defenses). Certainly this is an aspect that also stands out with my PCs – though the idea that these Chosen guys ‘own a God’ maybe stands out even more then the potent power that this grants them (which is how it should be at the best of times anyway).
As if this reveal is not big enough, on top of their trouble with Toade and Vimerak and his Chained God, shortly after the combat starts Vimerak, in a booming undead voice, summons Bitterstrike and a round or so later a set of doors to the room opens revealing a balcony and flying in front of the balcony is a Large White Dragon.
4E players might recognize the name Bitterstrike as that is a White Dragon detailed in Threats to Nentir Vale and in fact this is a modified version of that Dragon. I commented way back when on a post about the Monsters in Threats to Nentir Vale that a 4E DM should be taking inspiration for the design of Dragons from this book. Best Dragons in any edition of D&D in my opinion because Threats to Nentir Vale abandoned the idea of Dragons being a kind of class of monster – every Dragon in that book is a unique creature with its own signiture elements and when it comes right down to it every Dragon, except for very young ones anyway, really ought to be a unique creature with its own schtick. Now of course all Dragons should have some elements in common because they are Dragons, great defences, being a solo, great physical suit of attacks (this last one I really emphasize in 4E as its not normally a feature of 4E but was true of every other edition of Dragons) and Dragons should have some powers based on their colour but on top of all of this they should each get some kind of unique schtick of their own and that was what was so great about the Dragons in Threats to Nentir Vale – each Dragon had some unique elements of its own. It is too bad that their are not more of them to choose from - truth is this is what the Chromatic Dragons suppliment should have been all about but they print off that type of book early in an edition...usually before they really understand their edition and the place of Dragons in it.
My Players freak when they see this – as if they are not already having enough trouble – now they have a Dragon to deal with and they know I make the Dragons powerful.
Still despite the plethora of powerful theats in the first third of the combat I actually notice an interesting element in that the PCs kind of find ways to reduce the threat from both the Chosen Vimerak and the Dragon using their powers and they manage to stop Toade from escaping but pulling all of this off means they just can’t hold the Wartrolls down. I’m actually surprised to find that its the 4 Wartrolls that are really dishing out most of the damage in this part of the encounter.
The PCs finally manage to drag down one of the Trolls and kill Toade, but not before he manages to at least open the throne room doors. This brings two Hobgoblin minions into the fight which, like the Wartrolls, are actually surprisingly effective mainly because the PCs just don’t seem to be able to spare the time and resources to deal with them.
With Toade dead my PCs seem to begin to get a handle on this encounter and appear to have identified the major themes playing out. They can’t nerf Vimerak with divine powers but they can nerf Bitterstrike, they can somewhat nerf Vimerak with non divine powers though they don’t have all that much in this regard. Finally the Trolls are a problem, not least because they regenerate 10 hps a round and that has been significant in the trolls recovering somewhat from all sorts of burst type powers that they where included in. The parties two defenders are very potent in the encounter because they have used powers of their own to enhance already high ACs into the stratosphere and further Bitterstrikes most potent attack, her phenomenal claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/wing buffet routine has been significantly degraded by the cleric casting iron to glass on her. That soon turns into –10 damage to all her hits. Combine that with her facing down a defender she actually needs a pretty high roll to even hit and it starts to look good for the PCs.
They also have their math worked out and recognize that the trolls are a problem and have fewer hps but regenerate. At this stage they take out the trolls and then turn there focus on Vimerak. However I manage to start adjusting my tactics as well. Realizing that Bitterstrikes physical attacks are not really working I switch over to using her breath weapon as often as possible. Usually I can catch a bunch of PCs with it as I can set her up when she rampages to catch a whole slew of PCs when her actual turn comes up and her breath weapon does pretty big single hit damage but more importantly targets the groups much weaker reflex defences.
I’m actually under the impression that my PCs are just about to really get into the final stretch of this encounter with Vimerak about to die when it turns out that the PCs are at the end of their rope as well. A lucky recharge roll from Bitterstrike and she breaths and blammo – half the party, all of whom have apparently been running on fumes drops. 3 PCs go down including the cleric who has been the one keeping the PCs just barely running.
All of a sudden an encounter that had seemed to be going the PCs way switches again. The Dragon is just beginning to get toward bloodied and its just taken out ½ the PCs. At this stage there is actually serious discussion among my PCs about how they might escape this encounter with the fewest number of dead PCs. 3 down is a disaster though my players are lucky in that no one suffers ‘insta-death’ from rolling a 1 o a death save.
Still my players seem to manage to find a way to keep going. Talking to each other about what healing they have left it turns out that there is still a small amount of healing available to the party. The cleric has a healing potion on him. Utter crap in terms of hps for the use of a surge but this is just the sort of emergency healing the PCs need – anything to get the cleric back up – if they can do that…well then maybe…
The players receive another lift when their defender makes his attack against Vimerak and it turns out that was enough to drop him. Still its looking grim. They are just out of pretty much everything and there is Dragon with another 400 hps still standing.
There is another scare for the party as Bitterstrike rampages potentially stepping on the downed Pixie which would be enough to send him past negative bloodied into dead land. With the –5 penalty for being helpless in play I just need an 8 but roll a 3 and the Pixie lives.
At this point I still think Bitterstrike is just going to keep bringing the PCs down but turns out that freeing up the second defender allows the PCs to finally get a real handle on dealing with Bitterstrike. They spread out all over the room with the defenders positioned to take opportunity attacks on her if she tries to rampage around the room. I’m surprised to find that even trying to rampage has become a loosing game. Here the PCs do more damage in opportunity attacks then I’m likely to get only catching one PC in a rampage. Her breath weapon can now only catch 2 PCs at best and I find myself going back to her physical attacks but its not enough to really discomfit my PCs and her 400 remaining hps drop surprisingly fast.
My players are pretty elated but somewhat discomfited when I don’t just let them take their short rest. In the ensuing rounds they face off against a slew of hobgoblin minions that they don’t have much trouble with despite their depleted state but when the second Chosen, Grakak, emerges and starts heading for his Dragon the PCs start up with a desperate chase…but he kind of gets distance on them and gets them spread out. Fearful of coming to grips with him one at a time they call it quits and try again for a short rest – which works and in fact the rest of Pax Tharkas is liberated by the freed slaves during this 5 minute period though Garkak gets to his Dragon and makes his escape (I’ll make sure to use him again at some point).
All in all a pretty epic (and very long, multi session) 4E combat with a number of twists and turns along the way.
Visions of Intrigue and Skull Drudgery
I had a vague vision of how my most recent opus, Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spider, was supposed to look but it never quite turned out that way. Since the start of the campaign roughly every second adventure has been a city adventure but that will, by necessity, soon come to an end. I had set up an enemy agent in the capital city, Spider, and had her operatives consistently crossing paths with the PCs. The idea was that she would be the Heroic Tier enemy but that did not exactly work out and the adventure where the PCs would finally come to grips with her had been pushed back some levels. They’ll be taking her down when they are 14th level. I’ve started to think of this as being something close to the mid point adventure in the campaign though its really when they turn 16th level that they reach that point.
This one was an adventure that I was going to need to make from scratch. I tend to have some trouble with that type of adventure. It can be hard to get it organized and figure out how to proceed and this adventure was one of the worst of the lot in that regards. I had vague ideas that the adventure was going to somehow be about a kind of covert war where the PCs would somehow get enough clues to figure out who Spider was but as the deadline for really getting this adventure underway approached I just could not truly pin down how I was supposed to design this covert war with clues.
I actually got to the point where I was really quite fearful that I was just stuck – writers block or some such as at one point I found myself just staring at a blank screen for more then an hour before giving up. Very bad news for a DM…at least one that is working the campaign together with material that is either original or conversions. Admittedly most of the time conversions are not that tough. The base material usually suggests some idea of how one might want to proceed. This however was all original and I was straight out stuck.
Fortunately I had, at some point, decided that calling the adventure Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spider was brilliant and the title itself suggested a way I could go forward. Instead of the adventure being very loosely based on Le Carre’s classic how about go for something that was a lot closer to the source material.
I went and re-watched the brilliant BBC mini-series and took some notes after each episode. I quite literally wrote my own version of the plot of the mini-series as if it was a high school project…well a high school project that I wanted an A in as I re-watched some scenes repeatedly until I was sure I knew what was going on.
The basic conclusion I came to from watching this was that I could recreate something very similar to that plot in my own fantasy city. I needed, of course, to adapt elements to a sword and sorcery setting and the plot line I had already established but it was clearly possible. In adventure terms it actually turned out to be a somewhat straight forward plot line.
PCs are brought in by their protégé and another significant if secretive organization for Good in the city. They each have reason to believe that there is a leak of some kind in the official intelligence organizations and the PCs are told to go and find the leak. If one really looks at the original what becomes clear is that Smiley pretty much just interviews people that where in some manner or another connected to the original botched operation, realizes that this was probably a set up and then goes up the chain until he discerns that this secret sub organization called Witchcraft is where the actual mole is located.
Recreating that in Swords and Sorcery essentially means setting the PCs on the trail of one NPC and then having that branch off so that they have other NPCs to interview until they hit on the one that essentially leads them further down the plot line.
Thinking about it that kind of is the story with pretty much every investigative type adventure I’ve run. It just sort of seems that if the PCs are not in a dungeon killing everything that moves then it’s a game of talking to NPCs to lead the adventure forward. I suppose in a couple of early cases it was also a case of waiting for events to take place but I’m avoiding having that happen as I’ve discussed at length the problems with that element in previous posts.
One thing that sort of concerns me here is that there really is no chance of failure here. The PCs will talk to NPCs and, by and large, the NPCs will tell them what they want to know and eventually they find the right NPC.
I don’t see a real way of doing this any other way unless I’m willing to let the adventure potentially fall apart and I’m not willing to allow that. I suppose my players might just flunk in asking the right questions but so long as they manage to do that they will progress. My instinct here is that if this is to work the NPCs need to be reasonably interesting and varied so I put some effort into that. I also have some confidence that just because I can see the meta-level structure of this adventure I doubt my players can. For them I suspect it’ll not be nearly so obvious that this is really just a case of trying all the possible NPCs until they hit the right ones. I ‘think’ it’ll feel, to them, like they are slowly ferreting out information and closing in on the truth. I hope that is how it all feels in the end anyway. Seems to have worked in the past however.
In reality one of the more difficult parts of the adventure was fitting in the combats. The original source material does not have much in the way of combats but I’m not about to make a D&D adventure that skimps to much in this regard for my players – they all love a good combat. So I need to mix in combats between the PCs interviewing NPCs.
Here I found myself essentially just having Spiders Operatives threaten things the PCs value, A ship they expect to use soon and, later, the ships Capetian. Kind of arbitrary but these seemed like viable targets that allowed me to insure that the combats would take place and allowed me to offer a reasonable amount of change ups in the opposition.
Not exactly the ‘covert war in the streets’ that I had originally planned but in retrospect maybe that is OK. I kind already did the ‘War in the Streets’ theme when I wrote Telhran Inflamed.
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One thing that sort of concerns me here is that there really is no chance of failure here. The PCs will talk to NPCs and, by and large, the NPCs will tell them what they want to know and eventually they find the right NPC.
Yeah, this is a strong component of mystery adventures. Gumshoe is really direct about this, for example.
One thing I've found to make things a bit more... faily... is to let success or failure choose how players get clues.
Serial killers are the easiest example. The PCs have so long to get the clue... or someone else dies and they get the clue from the murder scene.
The trick is to synch up the clue events and failure conditions. So if the PCs try to see Lord Stuffedshirt and fail, the clue event should happen right after that, like "they get attacked on their way out the door" right away. If they have a few days to research stuff, the end of that period should be the clue event, that sort of thing.
In practice, it ends up being a lot like an adventure with fights. The PCs probably aren't going to really fail, but there is a huge difference between curbstomping everything and barely making it.
The attacks you're mentioning are good clue events. Throw something at them every few days, giving them the next clue in the chain each time. I'd mix them in with negative story developments (so people don't kick back and fight their way through the mystery).
Also, if you're looking for a good way to insert some fights, blackmail is an excellent motivator. "Oh, these men are threatening my life/business/child/spouse/pet/whatever, I can't talk to you because I'm so scared." So the combat unlocks the next clue.
Last but not least, remember your players will probably need way more clues than you think. Have some backup clues at each phase, just in case they get twisted around.
Cheers!
Landon
I think your right here but it definitely can be more or less doable due to plot constraints. So I did more or less what your describing in The Oakbridge Murders adventure and again in an Adventure Telhran Inflamed.
In each of these cases a major component of the plot line was a time line. At time X bad guys does Y and Z dies unless the PCs have figured out what is going on and stopped it.
However this does not always seem to be a viable option. For example I ran an adventure called the Telhran Job and the investigative part of the adventure was essentially in figuring out which specific building had what they where looking for so they could enact their heist. In that case it did not really make sense for their to be a bunch of failures because the adventure did not react back until they actually tried to execute their heist - and I would not have wanted it to react back because a big part of the adventure was finding the building - casing it and then planning the break in. Its not really a heist adventure if the inhabitants of the building know that some one plans to try and break in.
Oddly enough in this case I think I'm mainly avoiding failure for essentially space reasons but also to avoid creating a bunch of scenes that exist/don't exist. In essence I am pretty conservative when it comes to making a scene that might not get used. I'll make a certain number but avoid having it so that I'm writing the equivalent of two adventures in order to get to play one. This is especially true in regards to fight scenes - very rare for me to make a fight that will not get used and this is a 4E-ism. Fights tend to be large, take a long time and often have lots of complex moving parts. A battle in an automated fish processing factory is a good scene (and one I used recently) but make no mistake - designing the battle map for that takes a good chunk of time and I'm not spending 7 hours slaving away in Gimp for a map that will only come out if the PCs blow a skill challenge.
Hence I suspect that the system being used influences how these things can be designed. 4E has a lot of strengths in this department in that it is pretty good at making sure all the players are engaged outside of combat but its large complex combats mean that you can't - or at least shouldn't, use them willy nilly.
The other issue here is that the adventure is sort of already sizable even if most of the NPCs are cooperative. I've got something like 13 NPCs but in reality only 3 lead to the end game...so their is this sense that most NPCs are psuedo red herrings in any case. They might build on the PCs knowledge of what is going on but they are not the 'right' NPC. It seems almost too much to then have it so that 1/2 these NPCs also might stonewall the PCs and require yet another scene for some kind of resolution.
My complaint really is that I've this adventure that is mostly not combat but its also not really making much use of their skills either. I think I need a different kind of investigative adventure if I want it to be about their skill use - one that is not mostly about talking to people...or at least has lots of scenes that are not really talking to people included.
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My complaint really is that I've this adventure that is mostly not combat but its also not really making much use of their skills either. I think I need a different kind of investigative adventure if I want it to be about their skill use - one that is not mostly about talking to people...or at least has lots of scenes that are not really talking to people included.
Yeah, any adventure that's 13 of the same type of encounter is going to be a little rough. Even 13 combats in a row, despite arguably being the core of D&D, will drag tremendously.
Dropping in a few NPCs that need other things done can help, but if you have that many NPCs there may just not be room, as you said. But an NPC hiding out (skill challenge) or blackmailed (combat) can add a lot of spice.
On the topic of heists, I actually ran a timed challenge heist investigation a while back. Basically, they had a day to scope out the giant fortress they were trying to infiltrate, so I split the day into three phases.
Everyone made a perception check at each phase. The one player with profession (guardsman) could also make one of those each phase, because that seemed appropriate and he'd just be sitting there otherwise.
For each successful check, they got a random clue slip from the appropriate pile. Perception had a morning, midday, and afternoon. The guardsman stuff was just one pile. For perception far above and beyond the DC, they got a bonus slip from the "really hard to notice stuff" pile.
In the end, they missed... maybe a quarter of the clues. But missing information is what makes a heist interesting :)
Cheers!
Landon
Your right that 13 of anything is a lot. It simply seems to be pretty close to the minimum I use in this plot - this is what I get for ripping off a Le Carre plot line. When I actually count them its 11 but that is still a lot. Pretty much the PCs start by suspecting their is a leak in the Military Intelligence Branch of the Empire which has 4 members but 1 member is also - secretly a liaison to a Nobles Intelligence Cabal...which he views as kind of a higher authority - as one of the members of the secret Nobles Intelligence Cabal reports directly to the Emperor himself. However our evil mastermind has infiltrated the Nobles Intelligence Cabal. Hence the leak. Each of these organizations is small - just 4 members with 1 member in common but several members report to other people. Military High Command, Head of the Watch, The Emperor etc. and one has a subordinate that might be of interest to the PCs. A couple do involve some skill checks as they will not be fully co-operative and the actual leak has a bunch. Though I did not design it as a skill challenge - Those require some kind of global success or failure to work and here I did not think that was appropriate.
Fortunately its not 11 in a row - I have 'talk to X NPC triggers a combat scene' built into this so it will get broken up and, because one can only get knowledge of some of the NPCs by talking to others it will be the case that this is broken up in a manner of talk to 3 or 4 NPCs then a combat interlude.
I do like your 'pile of clues' idea. Might steal that at some point.
Flunking Futuresight
Name:Krystrid
Class/Level: Dwarven Divine Sorcerer 14th
Catalyst: Monsters Go First
Long Version:
The PCs enter a fish processing factory having learned that a cell of Spider’s Operatives are based there. The Manager of the plant, in the pay of the operatives, manages to delay the PCs long enough for the Operatives to prepare for them and when the fight starts they are spread around the main floor on catwalks while the PCs are clumped in front of a stair case that would lead to the back of the complex still talking with the manager who they believe is taking them to the back rooms.
A couple of the PCs have enough bonuses/roll high enough that they get to go first and get out of the clump but most of the PCs are still packed together when the bad guys start to go and they are pretty much pounded when an elite psionic controller just opens up on them with a couple of potent powers. Krystrid is hit hard twice and drops, rolling a 1 on his death save he immediately dies as the Cleric, with the interrupt and reroll a death save power has already used his interrupt for the round. It all happens so fast…though it was actually possible for Krystrid to have taken a move action and left the clump...that did not seem critical until the Psionic Controller actually took his turn and once they realized just how powerful it was and that ‘unclumping’ was critical it was already too late.
This is a death I was not expecting and the fact that it happened so fast is sort of problematic. Not really happy with this death…it seemed a bit too arbitrary.
This is a death I was not expecting and the fact that it happened so fast is sort of problematic. Not really happy with this death…it seemed a bit too arbitrary.
Sometimes death should be arbitrary. Sometimes, even when you've done everything right, the other team still wins, because they were simply the better team that day. I wouldn't sweat it too much.
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Yeah, character death is a funny one. It is pretty rare in my games (probably also a factor of playng 4e) but it does occasionally happen. Generally, it is a bit of a downer but can serve as a useful reminder to the players to be a bit more careful. But my experience is that players don't like it and doesn't add much to a game. On the other hand, it's always a risk and if the dice don't play out the way you want, it'll happen sometimes, and it's salutory for the players to be reminded of that too.
Just a query though - my understanding is that you get three death saving throws before you die, not one. Is this a houserule of yours, or had the PC already used two up? I've had plenty of PCs reduced to below 0hp in my game - happens a lot - but multiple death saving throws have generally saved them. If I gave them just one, death would be a lot more frequent in my games.
Yeah, character death is a funny one. It is pretty rare in my games (probably also a factor of playng 4e) but it does occasionally happen. Generally, it is a bit of a downer but can serve as a useful reminder to the players to be a bit more careful. But my experience is that players don't like it and doesn't add much to a game. On the other hand, it's always a risk and if the dice don't play out the way you want, it'll happen sometimes, and it's salutory for the players to be reminded of that too.
Just a query though - my understanding is that you get three death saving throws before you die, not one. Is this a houserule of yours, or had the PC already used two up? I've had plenty of PCs reduced to below 0hp in my game - happens a lot - but multiple death saving throws have generally saved them. If I gave them just one, death would be a lot more frequent in my games.
House rule. I've covered our system here before but quick recap.
When a PC goes down then there is an immediate death save the moment the PC goes down. If the death save is a 1 then death is automatic. This death save is also a real death save so a PC that goes down could fail this death save but not die and then have their turn come up and flunk their second death save almost immediately after the first death save.
On the players side of all of this is that I won't attack downed characters except in very corner case situations and I always telegraph that to the players. So the hill giant does not, as a rule, bother with the guy bleeding out on the ground unless there are no standing threats anywhere. However the Zombies might always stop to eat the PCs brains.
Hence death by going past negative bloodied value is less common - however the breathing Dragon does not care if your down or not if your standing by your buddy. It still breathes and your down character might die just because he is bleeding out in the wrong place.
All this from a debate early on regarding how to deal with death. We had found from the previous campaign that without the DM doing something death just never happened. We got to 12th level without loosing a single character at which point the players revolted and told the DM of that campaign to up the challenge level or else.
That DM responded by having all the monsters desperately target downed characters which did finally work in upping the challenge but it turned every encounter into this thing with suicidal acting monsters who race through waves of opportunity attacks which often just killed the monster in order to have a chance of getting a hit on the downed character and maybe killing the character.
Its a weird way to play because team evil can't be nearly as good as team good in the encounter or this focused fire just always kills so every encounter was a blow out for team good with their being some small chance that all the monsters piling the damage into one character might kill that guy.
I found with this system that the opposition can be capable of providing a good challenge with some chance of death without things going overboard. All that said my PCs have died from various causes during the campaign as going over their orbits will testify.
Death to the New Guy
Name: Bane
Class/Level: Shadar-Ki Ranger 14th
Catalyst: The Battle Drags On
Long Version:
Same fight as Krystrid (above) dies in. The PCs are never completely able to really get a handle on this combat though there are a couple of occasions where it looks like they might just barely manage to wrestle control of the battle back from the bad guys.
However as the combat continues the cleric runs out of healing and everyone eventually finds themselves out of even emergency healing powers and still the PCs keep dropping. At some point half the party finally drops though team evil is down to just their psionic controller as all his team mates have died. Nonetheless at this point the parties new controller (played by the player that lost Krystrid in the previous session with a story concocted as to why he has shown up and joined the fight) has dropped, as has the parties cleric and their ranger Bane. The remaining three PCs are conducting a retreat no longer believing that they can beat the Psionic Controller but that means carrying their downed comrades out of the combat before they can actually see to them. Without the ability to stop and give downed allies heal checks to stabilize them and no healing powers left in the party it starts to come down to pure death saves and Bane simply fails his third death save just as his comrades drag him out the door and out of the combat.
This death, along with Krystrid’s is one that I am less then pleased to have take place as I’ve killed to many characters recently.
Mwahahaha
Mwwwahahahahahaha
MWWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Some Thoughts on the Evolution of the Combats by Mid Paragon
The way combat has been evolving as the levels go up has me somewhat concerned. At least with yet another PC death it does. Things have begun to really head in increasingly swingy directions. I’m giving monsters seriously crazy powers and the PCs are showing off that they have access to the same sort of thing.
The combat that kills Krystrid is a case in point. The PCs have a bad set up and the monsters start off with a better one. The initiatives are rolled but it has started to be the case that most of the monsters tend to go before most of the PCs. This is a function of the fact that the monsters have initiatives that are rising faster then the PCs. I think +14 was the average bonus to initiative in this combat for the bad guys. Its possible for the PCs to have either characters or even whole party builds that are designed to win initiative but my players don’t have that. Here I understand why the Character Op boards think that having the party move first is a very big deal.
In the opening round the two really big bad guys start their turn, one is pretty much out of range but the other just wails on the PCs using a powerful area effect power to catch four of them in a clump and then following that up by using an action point to use another powerful power. One PC is dead and two of the other three are down to running on fumes for hps.
My players are talking about running – they are suffering from shock by how fast this all went down…and yet they don’t run this round, partly because some of them are immobilized and even having suffered a brutal hammering and having their main controller drop dead they manage to show off both why having initiative is so powerful and why the combats are getting so swingy. As they cycle through their turn they put a total of -11 to hit on the bad guy that walloped them. I mean at this point that bad guy is pretty much irrelevant until such time as I can get most of these effects off of him. Truth is I doubt this bad guy will have any effect on the combat again. He’ll die to the PCs all the while suffering from such severe penalties and other forms of action denial that he’ll never be able to take an effective action. This is what is prompting me to go all out on the one action that my bad guys are likely to get in the combat…their first. If the monsters can’t really make an impact right at the start of the combat they often never manage to make an impact at all.
Big Solo’s can sometimes get through this if they have reasonable amounts of support as they have enough hps to simply outlast the PCs premier nerfing abilities but the standards and even the elites mostly can’t pull that off.
I commented above in the ‘An Epic Fight’ post that it was the trolls that where really doing the damage in that combat at least in the early stages and this was because the players had shut down the Deathknight and the Dragon. We see this in this combat as well after the first round. The really powerful psionic controllers are both being stopped from being able to really do anything but the Standard Spider’s Operatives continue to pump out reasonable amounts of damage because the PCs have not been able to put action denial on them as well.
Admittedly I do have a very strong suspicion that the dynamics of every 4E campaign will look different and increasingly so as the levels go up. My group is light on the strikers and heavy on the rest of the party roles and so they excel in the control department. My guess if the group was mainly strikers the combats would probably look different with a focus on rapidly taking down all the (lower hp) standard monsters while the group works its way up to the creatures with higher hps.
The reality is in 4E the various classes do different things and as the levels go up they get ever more extreme at those different things. Healing gets completely insane or putting penalties onto monsters becomes -10 to hit or mitigating damage becomes ‘if you hit us we’ll actually come out ahead on hps’ etc. Not sure I plan to really do anything about it but its quite clear that things are increasingly swingy and that the PCs schtick’s get pretty extreme as they move through Paragon.
The fact that things have gotten quit swingy as the levels have gone up really stands in stark contrast to how 4E worked in the Heroic Tier where I pretty much found that combats tended to be real attritional affairs. If team evil was winning it was because the whole party was being dragged down while here its much more often the case that a few PCs are really in it while the rest of the party - especially the exceptionally resilient Defenders, are doing pretty much fine.
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I'll be honest, I'm extremely surprised a controller could really do enough damage to take down the PCs like that, unless I'm missing some important detail or fiendish synergy you came up with.
But that aside, you are right that the combats would go differently with a different party set-up - the alternative you describe - striker-heavy, low on control - is exactly the set-up for my real-world 4e party. And they perform in exactly the way you describe - the fighter tanks the boss while the strikers knock down the side-men as quickly as they can to reduce the damage potential.
It's hard for me to comment beyond that because we've been playing the same campaign since 4e came out with the same characters (they are now, believe it or not, finally 30th level, playing all the way from lvl 1) so I don't have much comparative experience. But when strikers are light on the ground (because their players are absent) the combats are certainly longer and the damage levels way lower. But you've commented before that your party excell in controlling a single adversary, so solo monsters get obliterated, but struggle if you throw in some minions. (My lot, the issue is a bit simpler - they are totally crap at ranged combat so almost everything is about melee. if you want to mess with their heads - not so much now at this level, but certainly at the levelyou are talking about - you gave them a flying adversary.) I suspect every party has its weak spot. When we next play 4e (assuming we don't go 5e - I don't really want to and I don't think the other do either, so far) I expect it'll be something else.
Dissecting a Brutal Battle
So why was this combat so lethal to my players? Its something worth considering since my players have not often been slaughtered and this combat just crushed them. I mean they actually got something of a sizable advantage at one point in that when one of the characters died I allowed that player to come in half way through the fight with a whole new character and yet this character was not enough to tip the balance.
Now this was not supposed to be an easy fight so it does start there – it was level +4 and was expected to be a daily fight. Still my players have been through lots of those and are not actually bad in such a combat. Many of their builds Nova very well and they figured out they where in a daily fight pretty quickly meaning that they knew to start using their powerful all encounter long dailies starting about round 2.
In this case I think it was not just one thing but a series of things that took place. One was that the monsters both generally went before the party and had some powerful burst attacks that really brutalized most of the party right off the bat and put the players on the back foot starting round 1.
Another issue was that the monsters started spread out and while the PCs where easy meat for burst attacks they could not do the same back.
The second issue – and maybe the most significant, was that these where unique monsters specially made by me and they where powerful designs with abilities that really countered much of what my players could do. They had lots of good defensive powers and some of them where really good. Interrupts that teleported melee attackers away. A power that let them force a player to retarget a ranged attack from the bad guys onto a friend (these where psionically themed bad guys so ‘I trick you’ was a big theme). All the standard warrior types had a power that meant that they did auto damage against anyone who marked them – which really messes with my players as there are two defenders in the party – and now they could not effectively mark. Finally they had a power that boosted their will defence to obscene levels meaning that the parties favourite tactic of debuffing enemies through the floor just was not working.
In the sphere of attack powers the bad guys tended to target NADs which worked well on my PCs where many of the PCs have very good ACs often boosted using dailies but here it mattered much less as the bad guys where not targeting their AC defences.
Finally for the Psionic controllers I just went overboard on the damage giving powers that hit many targets very high damage outputs. This simply rapidly overwhelmed the clerics healing abilities. Of everything I did in this encounter I’d say that the overdone damage was the only part of these bad guys that I really regret and in fact if I had not given them such high damage attacks I probably would have gotten the kind of nasty but not ridiculously lethal fight that I was looking for – I might have still had my players retreating out of the combat and maybe one of them would have died but it would probably not have come down to most of the party making non stop critical death saves.
As I said above, it's unusual for a controller to be dishing out lots of damage. Their metier is really debuffs and then letting someone else tidy up the mess. If you over-egged the controllers then that would probably get ugly fast, given they generally have area effects.
Pretty much that is what happened. I used the 'limited' damage option on the basis that their powers where recharge. But they had three very good 'hits many targets and really messes with them' powers so they always had one of them available and the damage was just to potent. One power like that on a recharge is OK if the other powers are more reasonable but once it was the case that they always had these powers that was over the top. This is especially true because they had such great defensive powers that the players had some difficulty locking them down. Its probably really a combination that made them so devastating. Normally a powerful enemy with good powers draws all the party's debuffs and its neither here nor there how good their own powers are but this combat proved to be an exception.
DMing When the Death Toll is Getting Too High ( or crap I’ve kind of tied my hands)
De ju vu to my 3.5 campaign…the players are dropping like flies…
I go through what turns out to be a brutal meat grinder of a fight and manage to kill off two of my players. The problem is now I’m well beyond the mortality goal for the campaign which is a character died for roughly every 3 levels and here, for the first time in the campaign I’m above quota – and well above it as well. I was not expecting to bag another PC until the 15th-18th level period of the game and my PCs just turned 14th level. Worse yet even before the encounter ends another PC, Bane, bleeds out so now I’m more in the mortality level I would have been looking for during the 19th-21st level period.
I mean this was always supposed to be a rough guideline but still it does impact things. These deaths put my whole guideline idea out of wack and I’m not really sure what to do about it. In some ways the deaths themselves are not such a huge problem its actually the fact that now I really don’t want to kill any more PCs.
I’ve not been in this position in this campaign as of yet – I’ve been in the reverse earlier where I was concerned that the players where just never dieing and they where going to grow to complacent with the lack of real danger but this is different and in some ways worse.
I mean I suppose I’ll dial back a little on the danger but I’m not to happy about it. Its better for me if I’m building combats where I think there is a good chance that I’m going to bag a PC only to find, as I really usually do, that somehow my players, once again, just managed eke out a victory by the skin of their teeth. This just makes for the most dramatic encounters and its where my players are most focused and I some very real way having the most fun as well.
I’m not a big fan of this whole ‘dial back the danger’ encounter design. I fear that its just going to lead to easy and unsatisfying wins and the reality is there were a lot of encounters due before my players get to 20th level or so and I will finally feel comfortable putting on the pressure once more (even then if I bag another one of them at this stage I’ll be right back where I am now).
OK so I’m concerned about being to lethal with my players going forward as I don’t want to see yet another character death for fear that it’ll start to frustrate and demoralize my players – I mean they are currently being somewhat reasonable in not exploiting the character builder for every last edge they can find and I found in 3.5 that the constant deaths had the players going crazy with character optimization and was also frustrating for them (and ultimately for me).
On the other hand I don’t want to ease off too much for fear that the combats become unexciting because they are all to easy.
I’ve got three options I can see going forward. A) I can ease off and make easy combats.
B) I can keep it going with the lethal fights – this might work. What is killing my players is partly just some bad luck. They have been rolling 1’s for their death saves significantly more often then they should statistically speaking…I could always hope that things just average out.
C) I can try and split the difference and go with a mix of combats where I’ve purposely scaled things back to be a bit easier but keep throwing in a few hard ones and hope that the gods of dice don’t get a nasty streak in these combats.
In thinking about it C seems like the best option as it reduces the chances of getting a fatality and yet means that the easier combat is not quite as pronounced as I still put real pressure on my players at least a couple of encounters a level. Hopefully this means that my players don’t actually notice that the combats seem to be generally easier.
All that said I’m just not so certain that I can reasonably keep the danger level dialled this low for 6 levels. I mean at this point I’m not certain that I get out ahead if I manage to get through 6 levels without a character death…I know my players want me to hit that balance between hard combats and not to completely insane and this just might be to much in terms of dialled back encounters.
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I'm thinking it's maybe mostly bad luck with a little bit of DM overkill. Are your players upset about it - obviously no one likes losing a character, but is it killing their enjoyment of the game? If not, then I wouldn't let it worry you. If it is causing problems in the campaign - disrupting treasured story arcs and so on - then maybe you have a bit more of an issue, although it's kinda part of the DM's craft to deal with those too. I'm slightly surprised you have an "death quota" - it's not something I've heard of before. It might be a bit of an artificial contraint you have imposed upon yourself, and really not a genuine issue with the game at all.
In my experience, a lot of the joy of DMing stems from dealing with the unexpected. I wouldn't worry about it too much unless the trend continues. Have your players started to adjust tactics in light of all the recent deaths? It might make for some great role playing.
This is a great thread so please keep it up.
Not on the current topic of PC death but relevant to the (possibly much) earlier discussion of conversion of older modules, my preferred method is combining encounter areas into single 4E encounters. A case in point, I revisited the Dungeon of the Fire Opal from Dungeon 84 over the weekend and managed to distil the 41 room dungeon into 6 encounters in 4E. Rather than remove single creature encounters I include them in the wider encounter area and build a bigger encounter.
Just a quick thought and as I said at the start, please keep this thread going, it is brilliant.
I'm thinking it's maybe mostly bad luck with a little bit of DM overkill. Are your players upset about it - obviously no one likes losing a character, but is it killing their enjoyment of the game? If not, then I wouldn't let it worry you. If it is causing problems in the campaign - disrupting treasured story arcs and so on - then maybe you have a bit more of an issue, although it's kinda part of the DM's craft to deal with those too. I'm slightly surprised you have an "death quota" - it's not something I've heard of before. It might be a bit of an artificial contraint you have imposed upon yourself, and really not a genuine issue with the game at all.
While I admit that the idea of a ‘death quota’ is a bit unusual its basically a guideline arising from the last two campaigns with my group. Two campaigns ago I’m the DM and we are playing 3.5. It’s a friggen blood bath. The players are dropping like flies. Roughly speaking something to the tune of 1 death per level though it often came in clumps.
Anyway there is something of a consensus that this was maybe a bit to much. So we go on to the next campaign with another DM and me as a player in 4E. Well in this one we go 12 levels without a single player dieing – more or less there are only maybe three combats in a combat heavy campaign in which we even feel like we are being pushed. Finally after 12 levels of this the players, including myself revolt, and tell the DM that if some of us don’t start dieing…well then he is not going to remain the DM for much longer. I mean I don’t show up every week just to roll some dice while we play through some forgone conclusion of our PCs once again moping the floor with the opposition.
The DM does start upping the challenge, although I’m personally not such a huge fan of how he did it – pretty much just had all the monsters focus on one PC and very occasionally he managed to get lucky and take the player down past negative bloodied and kill the PC. In effect every combat was still a pushover and a forgone conclusion – its just that there was now a small chance that before we killed all the monsters we might loose a character.
Anyway that campaign comes to an end and its my turn to DM again and pretty much at this point I decided on the idea of a ‘death quota’. It’s a bit of an odd idea but it really is meant to simply be a guideline. If my PCs are dieing right and left I’ve taken things too far and on the other hand if my PCs are never dieing then I need to up the challenge.
Up until recently its actually served as a pretty good guideline. The problem, especially in 4E, for my group was usually not that your killing to many PCs but that I was not killing them enough and my players where prone to getting complacent and when they are complacent they get bored. There is even a weird side effect when they manage to go trough multiple adventures without loosing any PCs. They start to get bored with their characters and begin to retire them so they can play new ones. Hence, odd as it is, my killing one of them every so often makes them more invested in their PCs in order to try and keep them alive. Of course, as I make clear in the last few posts, its gotten a little out of hand – one super hard fight and they are up past my death quota and now I’ve got a problem. If I lay off for long enough that the quota is restored they are going to go through a bunch of adventures without a death and get bored (and start retiring their characters) but on the other hand they are showing some signs of the kind of shell shock they where going through two campaigns ago, where I was just murdering them left and right.
Bit of a quandary really.