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For many items, the CL provides no benefit except resistance to dispel attempts. A bag of holding is an example of this... its powers aren't based on CL. Thus, the wiz17 could make his bag at CL 9th (the default), CL17th (his own CL), or anything in between. I probably wouldn't let him make it at CL 1st, as secret chest requires CL 9th and the item is based on that, but if he really wanted to I supposed I'd let him. None of these choices affect the price, cost, time, or craft DC in any way, because the CL doesn't affect the item's abilities.
For other items, the CL does actually play a role in the item's effects--a generic necklace of fireballs has a default CL of 10th because two varieties include fireball-beads that deal 10d6 damage (just like a CL 10th fireball does). If you wanted to make a type VI or VII necklace (which have fireballs of this power), you should *require* the crafter set the CL to 10th. However, if you're just making a type I necklace (max 5d6 fireball), there's no reason you couldn't just set the item's CL to 5th because it doesn't need to be more than that. And if you're a wiz20 and wanted to be a weirdo and make a type I necklace that's CL 20th, you could, but unless you're paying the extra gold for this increase to change the d6s of the item, that CL is basically irrelevant and I wouldn't have it effect the crafting DC.
For the pearl of power, I agree that in an ideal situation, each type of pearl would have its own CL listed (based on the min level to actually cast that sort of spell), and likewise each type of necklace of fireballs would have its own CL. And while the pearl sort of straddles the line between category 1 (CL is irrelevant because a CL 20th 1st-level pearl isn't any better at recalling spells than a CL 1st 1st-level pearl) and category 2 (in that the spell level of the pearl implies a minimum CL), in terms of its cost, price, and time, the CL difference for a pearl of the same spell level is essentially irrelevant and would almost never be a factor in any campaign (only if someone is specifically trying to temporarily nullify the powers of a pearl, which I've *never* seen happen). It shouldn't be harder to craft the "better" high-CL 1st-level pearl because it isn't really any better than the low-CL 1st-level pearl.
So if the question is, "should a CL 17th 1st-level pearl have a higher crafting DC than a CL 1st 1st-level pearl?" then the answer is "no, because the difference between the two is essentially negligible." Both cost 1000gp, both recall a 1st-level spell. Likewise with a bag of holding... the CL doesn't affect its abilities, so a wiz17 could set the CL to 17th if he wanted to, without changing the crafting DC at all.
Asking the same question about something where the CL *does* matter (like a wand of fireball), I would make the crafting check higher, because that CL actually reflects a significant change in the item's power. A wiz5 trying to make a CL 10th wand of fireball doesn't have the prerequisite to cast a 10d6 fireball, so him trying to make a wand of that should be harder than making a 5d6 wand... and this is reflected in the cost of the item (a 10d6 wand costs more than a 5d6 wand). It *should* be harder for that wizard to make the better wand because the wand really is better than the other wand.
TLDR:
1 )If giving the item a better CL doesn't really make the item better, don't make it harder for the crafter (by increasing the crafting DC) for that increase in CL, any more than you'd make it harder if they want a blue magical cloak instead of a red magical cloak.
2) If giving the item a better CL doesn't really make the item better, let the crafter create it at their own CL instead of the default.
Here you have it, Mergy, a Developer saying that you can craft an item with a CL above your own, for one of the items that require the crafter to have the spell memorized. It is a wand and not a potion, but it has the same limitations.
I too don't like it and don't allow it in my home game, but it is RAW.
Truly, having a Summoner in the party is an alchemist's best friend. They get a bunch of nice spells at 3rd level that would otherwise be unavailable as a potion. Like Greater Invisibility and Stone Skin. And the thing is with most of those spells, getting them even at min. CL works quite fine and dandy.
But yeah, you can just up the DC to craft a higher CL item. Which means others can do it too. Which means the world does not need a 20th level druid for you to find a potion of GMF +5. You'd probably have to comission it, since i doubt they'd just have such items laying out already made and for sale. But it takes like what? 3 days? No biggie.
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Truly, having a Summoner in the party is an alchemist's best friend. They get a bunch of nice spells at 3rd level that would otherwise be unavailable as a potion. Like Greater Invisibility and Stone Skin. And the thing is with most of those spells, getting them even at min. CL works quite fine and dandy.
But yeah, you can just up the DC to craft a higher CL item. Which means others can do it too. Which means the world does not need a 20th level druid for you to find a potion of GMF +5. You'd probably have to comission it, since i doubt they'd just have such items laying out already made and for sale. But it takes like what? 3 days? No biggie.
Luckily, not in PFS. Certainly not in any game of mine either.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?
There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.
Listed right here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions
As an editor of d20pfsrd.com, I'd like to point out that we never say in any way that the potions and oils in that table are legal for any specific game, the table was put there for simple lookup of the prices of the most common potions found in the game. See the quote above the table:
"Table: Specific Potions and Oils
The following table is taken from d20srd.org, the definitive 3.5 SRD resource (it was not created or provided by Paizo.)"
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The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?
There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.
Listed right here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions
Please show me a reference on a PFS legal source.
The potions are listed as something that you can purchase here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potionsThe rules that you posted mean that the "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12.
...
If you believe it is not then I would like to see a rule in print that explicitly disallows it.
Items are legalized in PFS on an inclusive basis, if something is not listed as being legal it isn't. It's pretty clearly spelled out in the guide. The d20pfsrd is not a legal source for PFS and the table you reference is not included in any PFS legal products (and contains several errors such as the mis-pricing of the oil of bless weapon).
Potions, Scrolls and Wands
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables
are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder
Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells
that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For
example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as
a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be
purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If
a spell appears at different levels on two different lists,
use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example,
poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of
a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are
available only at the minimum caster level unless found
at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between
an arcane and divine scroll or wand in Pathfinder Society
Organized play. Thus a bard and cleric may both use the
same scroll of cure moderate wounds.
Finally, scrolls of spells of 7th level or higher are not
permitted unless you gain access to them on a Chronicle
sheet specifically listing them.
That is the one and only applicable quote in the guide. The part about "always available" items is not applicable as that applies to anywhere that the player visits that has a resident count of 5,000+ people. The quoted part sets a rule for anything purchased even via the Prestige system that the book outlines. This system allows for the purchase of goods beyond what is "Always Available". This is typically how a player would purchase the potion in question.
Mergy: The link that you posted with the Dev comment was in regards to a "Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL5) for 250gp (which would heal 1d8+5)". That is not the same as a Barkskin +5 potion.
However, with cartmanbeck's post and the fact that the list of potions was specifically discluded from the Pathfinder core rulebook (and here) I am now thinking that they did this on purpose.
I will concede my point on that basis. I would, however, like to point out that it makes no logical sense that you do not have the ability to purchase something that clearly the crafter of the item COULD make, you COULD afford and DOES exist in the game world. It isn't even a simple issue of availability that DMs could control to prevent characters from purchasing it kind of issue. Even a potion of Barkskin +3 would be unavailable under those rules. This is the downfall of the PFS system as I believe it really ruins part of the suspension of disbelief.
0gre: I was not the first to reference that table, nor was I the first to post it. Either way, you are correct that it is not used for PFS play. I actually wonder if they do have a definitive list. I am better that they do not and actually prefer to reference simply the core book which seems to purposefully leave a list off.
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Potions, Scrolls and Wands
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables
are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder
Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells
that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For
example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as
a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be
purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If
a spell appears at different levels on two different lists,
use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example,
poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of
a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are
available only at the minimum caster level unless found
at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between
an arcane and divine scroll or wand in Pathfinder Society
Organized play. Thus a bard and cleric may both use the
same scroll of cure moderate wounds.
Finally, scrolls of spells of 7th level or higher are not
permitted unless you gain access to them on a Chronicle
sheet specifically listing them.That is the one and only applicable quote in the guide. The part about "always available" items is not applicable as that applies to anywhere that the player visits that has a resident count of 5,000+ people. The quoted part sets a rule for anything purchased even via the Prestige system that the book outlines. This system allows for the purchase of goods beyond what is "Always Available". This is typically how a player would purchase the potion in question.
Mergy: The link that you posted with the Dev comment was in regards to a "Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL5) for 250gp (which would heal 1d8+5)". That is not the same as a Barkskin +5 potion.
However, with cartmanbeck's post and the fact that the list of potions was specifically discluded from the Pathfinder core rulebook (and...
Sense or no, it's the PFS rules. Wilful ignorance of the PFS rules is just going to get your character kicked from a table when you say "I pull out my CL 20 potions of greater magic fang and barkskin".
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Indeed, elixirs are the best use of alchemical allocation. At least in PFS.
My alchemist has made use of a potion of heroism he bought with 2 prestige points since level 4. +2 to attacks and saves for 50 minutes is nothing to sneeze at; it's basically a lesser mutagen in and of itself.
He also has a potion of greater magic fang, also bought for 2 prestige points; I regret that I completely missed the elixer part of alchemical allocation.
What elixirs would you suggest I acquire?
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0gre: I was not the first to reference that table, nor was I the first to post it. Either way, you are correct that it is not used for PFS play. I actually wonder if they do have a definitive list. I am better that they do not and actually prefer to reference simply the core book which seems to purposefully leave a list off.
There is a definitive list, it's potions of all spells at their minimum caster level. Further if any spell is on the cleric/ wizard/ druid spell list it must be crafted using one of those classes, so for example you can't have a potion of stoneskin in PFS because it's on the wizard spell list and you can't craft a potion of stoneskin as a wizard. Bless weapon works because it's only on the paladin list.
Sense or no, it's the PFS rules. Wilful ignorance of the PFS rules is just going to get your character kicked from a table when you say "I pull out my CL 20 potions of greater magic fang and barkskin".
I doubt that for three very important reasons:
1. I have seen characters walking around with potions with higher than standard caster level. I'm guessing that this may have been a result of DM interpretation of the rules. Unless there exists potions with higher caster level as rewards?
2. I am not willfully ignorant of any rules PFS or not. I find the act of willfull ignorance only slightly less constructive and good intentioned than telling others that they are willfully ignorant.
3. As I stated, I do not play in PFS.
There is a definitive list...
Please post this definitive list.
So, in PF Society, can you craft things yourself? Cause Alchemist HAS brew potion. Buy some normal scrolls of GMF at the min. caster level, enough for the days you'll be working. Get your craft alchemy up high enough to make the DC for a CL of 20 (since the required CL is 5, you won't need to add an extra +5 for not meeting the DC, at least...), and use magic device the scrolls. Costs a bit and takes some time, but the end result seems worth it.
Side note: It's totally bogus that a buffing-based "caster" like alchemist gets neither GMF nor GMW. That's really messed up.
So, in PF Society, can you craft things yourself?
No. Well, not really. Alchemists get a bit of an exception.
How can alchemists craft in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?
Alchemists can use the Craft (alchemy) skill to produce items with their Alchemy ability. Follow the Craft rules on pages 91–93 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook as well as in the alchemist’s Alchemy ability description. Any item created must be properly noted on that scenario’s Chronicle sheet. Under "Items Bought", note the amount of gold spent and the item created. Alchemists are assumed, for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, to carry the necessary items and tools with them to use available resources to create alchemical items. If they have a base of operations from which to do so, they may use an alchemy lab to gain the +2 bonus on their Craft (alchemy) check. Alchemists may never sell any of their created items nor may they trade them to another PC. However, they may allow other PCs to borrow or use items they’ve created (so long as the alchemist class ability being used allows them to do so).
Side note: It's totally bogus that a buffing-based "caster" like alchemist gets neither GMF nor GMW. That's really messed up.
I agree.
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Sense or no, it's the PFS rules. Wilful ignorance of the PFS rules is just going to get your character kicked from a table when you say "I pull out my CL 20 potions of greater magic fang and barkskin".I doubt that for three very important reasons:
1. I have seen characters walking around with potions with higher than standard caster level. I'm guessing that this may have been a result of DM interpretation of the rules. Unless there exists potions with higher caster level as rewards?
2. I am not willfully ignorant of any rules PFS or not. I find the act of willfull ignorance only slightly less constructive and good intentioned than telling others that they are willfully ignorant.
3. As I stated, I do not play in PFS.
1. Well they're wrong, or their GMs are wrong and making them wrong. Or yes, it's possible there's a chronicle sheet that has those higher level rewards. In which case they would need to show me where they got said potion.
2. You're arguing with me about a clear cut PFS rule. That is either ignorance or wilful ignorance.
3. Why are you bringing up and arguing about PFS rules if you don't play PFS?
So, in PF Society, can you craft things yourself? Cause Alchemist HAS brew potion. Buy some normal scrolls of GMF at the min. caster level, enough for the days you'll be working. Get your craft alchemy up high enough to make the DC for a CL of 20 (since the required CL is 5, you won't need to add an extra +5 for not meeting the DC, at least...), and use magic device the scrolls. Costs a bit and takes some time, but the end result seems worth it.
Side note: It's totally bogus that a buffing-based "caster" like alchemist gets neither GMF nor GMW. That's really messed up.
Alchemists trade Brew Potion for Extra Bombs. Vivisectionists instead get Skill Focus: Craft (Alchemy) or Knowledge (Nature).
You cannot craft potions, but alchemists can craft poisons and alchemic items like acid or tanglefoot bags using normal crafting rules. It's one of the exceptions detailed in the PFS FAQ.
Mergy, what is it that I'm arguing about? I already conceded my point when I said, "I will concede my point on that basis." You conveniently left that out when you quoted me, but is is clearly there for you to see above. To me it seems like your looking for a fight at this point to the point of calling me "willfully ignorant". I'll ask you to stand down, please. I do not enjoy your personal attacks.
Also, just because I do not play PFS does not mean that I do not know the rules for it. I am not arguing about anything at this point. You keep saying that but it isn't true.
StreamOfTheSky: Here is the valid quote from here.
The following parts of the Advanced Player's Guide are NOT legal for play: Craftsman alternate Dwarven racial trait, Practicality alternate Halfling racial trait, Heart of the Fields alternate Human racial trait, Alchemist's Brew Potion class ability (he receives Extra Bombs instead as a bonus feat), Cavalier's Expert Trainer class ability (he receives Skill Focus [Handle Animal] instead as a bonus feat), Witch's Cauldron hex, Antipaladin alternate class, Cooperative Crafting feat, all cursed magic items and artifacts, the Hero Point new rule and associated feats, spells, and magic items, the Hedge Magician, Magical Knack, Natural Born Leader, and Rich Parents traits, and all of the Campaign Traits. The Master Alchemist feat may only be selected by Alchemists and Poisoners.
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So someone posted something incorrect. I corrected them. Someone told me I was wrong. I gave proof that I was correct. You said "well the rule doesn't make sense". I said "sense or no, it's a rule, and if you (I should have said 'a character') show up wilfully ignorant, you'll be disappointed", and then you thought I was calling you out.
I wasn't calling you out; I'm just trying to stop potential PFS players from breaking a clear-cut rule.
Apparently item crafters can create higher CL potions outside of PFS. I don't like the rule, and if I host a home game, I won't allow it, but I won't argue that it's not a rule.
Mergy, you said immediately after quoting PART of the post where I conceded my point:
Sense or no, it's the PFS rules. Wilful ignorance of the PFS rules is just going to get your character kicked from a table when you say "I pull out my CL 20 potions of greater magic fang and barkskin".
(bolding mine)
It sure looks to me like you are calling me out as being willfully ignorant. Especially when you continued to insist that I was arguing with you (after, like I said, I had already conceded my point) by backing up your earlier personal attack by saying:
You're arguing with me about a clear cut PFS rule. That is either ignorance or wilful ignorance.
(bolding mine)
Now, perhaps even though you outright called me willfully ignorant twice you didn't actually mean it? I will allow you to retract your personal attacks if you'd like.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Stuff
You can craft a lot of magic items with a higher CL than your caster level....but potions are not one of those items.
You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures or objects. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
The specific rules for potions trump the general rules for item crafting--your potions are capped at your level.
Did this thread get moved, or did the PFS argument hijack a question that was a generic rules question and not PFS specific. I'm failing to see anything that makes it PFS in the opening posts.
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I verified; the GMF +5 is blatant cheatery in PFS. Good to know.
And while it was PFS-jacked, the true answer is that in a home game, GMs shouldn't allow 20th level potions to be found at 5th level. This is an area where keeping control of the game does help; you have control over that as a GM. If you do allow these potions, expect Alchemists to overrun the world. As it stands, it's a very flexible and great spell, but at best duplicates an extended 3rd level spell at your level (assuming you take the extend AND "make potion your level" bonuses). This will NOT overpower the game.
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...For the guy that has FAQed my post:
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
The bolded part for the ability to craft items with a CL above your character level.
For the part about CL not being a prerequisite:
{Any sense for if/when an official errata might be produced?}
I've mentioned it to Jason as of now.
{In this case, I can see level now being a prereq since you can bypass prereqs by adding +5 to the craft DC, but I have no idea if that is really intended.}
Like I said, Caster Level is not a prereq for creating an item unless it's actually listed in the Requirements line. For example, there's no reason why a 1st-level pearl of power requires a 17th-level caster (and the Requirements line only specifies that you have to be able to cast the
Mergy is right!
If you go and read the core rulebook you will see that items such as scrolls, staves, wands, and potions are handled differently.
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Now, perhaps even though you outright called me willfully ignorant twice you didn't actually mean it? I will allow you to retract your personal attacks if you'd like.
Someone who knows about a rule and chooses to pretent he doesn't is willfully ignorant... it is the definition of the term.
You should take any questions about this to the PFS forums because it's polluting this thread.
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Now, perhaps even though you outright called me willfully ignorant twice you didn't actually mean it? I will allow you to retract your personal attacks if you'd like.
I want to focus on this for a moment.
Being called ignorant is not a personal attack. Being ignorant just means you do not posses the knowledge of certain information. I am ignorant when it comes to brain surgery because I lack the knowledge to do it.
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Okay, before more people jump in, let's talk more about alchemical allocation and good potions to use with it!
Heroism is my personal favourite, as +2 to attacks and saves for almost an hour is amazing.
I can also get into potions of tongues, because that's the kind of thing I don't want to have to prepare, but it's good to have it as a just in case.
It's unfortunate, but I don't think there's usually enough time to get good use out of haste. Fly might be an option, but that's the kind of thing you do want to have prepared all the time anyway.
Also, pearls of power can make alchemical allocation work even better. (Inb4 "that doesn't work for alchemists")
Random side question: Could you get a Heightened to level 7 potion of barkskin (thus requiring CL 13) in PFS?
PoP should work, though. The whole "sort of casters but not" grey area alchemists occupy was very poorly handled.
And I will personally post the longest stream of "HAHAHA..." this board has ever seen if you think alchemists should not get PoP to work for them because "it would be overpowered" (but have no problem with wiz, cleric, and druid using them).
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My current interpretation is that they work; alchemists are prepared spellcasters, and it has been mentioned that calling them extracts is merely fluff. My alchemist in PFS has one at 1st and 2nd. I suppose getting another pearl of power 2nd could only benefit me, because the more times I can use alchemical allocation the better; my first level PoP is not nearly as useful as I frequently do not use all my 1st level extracts.
Pearls of Power would work, A ring of wizardry would not.
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Elixirs are wondrous items, and can be used with alchemical allocation. This is where alchemical allocation is strong. I suggest the elixir of shadewalking.Do you have any evidence that backs this up?
Considering you can make elixirs out of a number of spells otherwise unavailable as potions and the fact it uses a different feat (Create WI vs Brew Potion) I'm inclined to rule they are not the same, and as such should not work with AA.
Alchemical Allocation
School transmutation; Level alchemist 2CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components SEFFECT
Range personal
Targets you
Duration 1 roundDESCRIPTION
This extract causes a pale aura to emanate from your mouth.If you consume a potion or elixir on the round following the consumption of this extract, you can spit it back into its container as a free action. You gain all the benefits of the potion or elixir, but it is not consumed. You can only gain the benefits of one potion or elixir in this way per use of this extract.