Hello Pathfinder community!
This thread contains spoilers for "The Skinsaw Murders".
I'm DMing a group of 6. They'll soon be clearing up "Burnt Offerings" and moving onto "The Skinsaw Murders". My only potential problem with the module are the haunts.
The concept is really cool. I want to implement them into the play session without causing an uproar. The issue is that a PC can die in roughly 2-3 rolls from a haunt. This can theoretically happen in battle, too, but a battle situation feels more concrete.
Ultimately, the situation is this: We're all new to tabletop games and everyone is still using their first characters. I don't know what a PC death is like but I imagine it will be shocking. How much more so if it's from a game mechanic no one has seen before? If I had a character, I would rather die on a critical hit from a dragon than "your character instantly commits suicide." I hope some of you can relate to my fear of anger and feeling of betrayal from the group.
Is there any advice on this? Should I tone down the damage from the haunts? Is there a way I can explain it to the group to avoid backlash?
Thank you for your help and thank you for taking the time to read this.
Greetings, fellow traveller.
I've never played that module, only read through it, the same goes for the Carrion Crown AP where haunts used as well.
Since it's a new mechanic I would use some NPC from your campaign telling your group strictly in-game and in-character that the mansion is haunted, that people have been known to go mad after visiting or going near the house and that there's this story where one of the "visitors" has commited suicide by running frantically out of the door dashing for the cliff, flinging him/herself down - it's even given on page 23 under Foxglove Manor Lore (DC 15).
Something like that, just more pronounced and without a knowledge check. Maybe you have to widen the story some, but it's yours anyways, so no real harm in accomodating it to you and your group's special circumstances.
Another idea would be to sit down with your players out of game and tell them about a new mechanics you're going to introduce, which might turn just as deadly as normal combat.
Hope it helps and have fun (your group is going to die anyway at the end of this module *evilgmgrin* - just search for Xanesha on these boards).
Ruyan.
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There's only the one suicide haunt that's really bad if I recall correctly (takes two missed saves or die).
An alternative would be if they fail the saves, have them have the vision, have them try to kill themselves, and then if the others are unable stop it, have the character wound themselves non-fatally and then fall into a catatonic state requiring a Remove Curse or something. An alternative to a curse would be to give them enough Wisdom Damage (which recovers with time and rest) to knock them down to Wis 0.
Just spit balling.
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Another option regarding the suicide haunt is instead of insta-death, they are dropped to -1 hp. That way you can describe all the gory details, see the "oh $&!%!" look in all of their faces, but still allows the group to react and save the player - unless they screw around or don't have any potions, spells, or just completely suck on their heal skill checks.
I think I've read somewhere else here is you can also treat it as a Coup de Grace and allow the player one last fortitude save before dropping to -1.
Character death is an important part of the game, if you remove death as an option for failed rolls, bad decisions, poor planning, or just bad luck you remove alot of the fear and wonder players will experience as they explore.
My players enjoy a good fair character death, it adds drama and gives a chance for someone to play something new or even come back with fairly inexpensive spells like Reincarnation, Raise Dead, or Ressurection.
You can even use it as a story device by inventing whole new plots where someone mysteriously returns from the dead.
Anways,if you want to nerf the haunts that works too, but the trick to using them is to describe them in great detail. Maybe add some extra horror elements by whispering to the player what is about to happen and then let them speak in character but they have no control over their body. It gives the other players a chance to be heroic and horrified.
In game there are alot of combats, sometimes they aren't life threatening but provide alot of fun. Othertimes there are life threatening situations where the luck of the dice and quick thinking determine the course of a character's life or the plot of the game, those moments can become your player's most memorable moments when years from now you sit around talking about "that time when".
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Partly to bring it up for a new group and partly to play devil's advocate on this:
While I'm all for not making things insta-death circumstances, there is something to be said for the fear of character death at a table. If the heroes believe they are essentially invincible because you blunt all the sharp edges of the world they are in, I feel like an important part of the magic of role-playing is lost.
Consider a warning to them at the start of the book and let them know that it's a murder mystery with everything on the line. That doesn't give anything away but may help them keep from blundering into the haunts quite as blindly as you fear may happen and build the anticipation of going through the very haunted house.
That said, all the ways mentioned otherwise are certainly valid. At my table, suspension of disbelief is a part of the game everyone enjoys. That makes the above very important for our game style. One of my players nearly ended up jumping out of that window...
Thank you all for your input.
I will definitely use some of the ideas posted here. I do believe that player death is an important part of the game, so I'll work harder at preparing them for it.
I'm going to modify the two-roll suicide(s), but I'll leave the window-jumping one since it takes 4 rolls to die. If someone takes damage from a normally non-lethal haunt and dies because they didn't heal beforehand, that's their problem.
Once again, thank you all for your support. It's communities like this that keep tabletop games alive.
I re-wrote all of the haunts to be more in-line with the haunt rules from the GameMastery Guide.
Basically, I re-defined all of the haunts as PF spell effects.
For example...
So, none are save-or-die effects, but may are save-or-save-or-be-dying effects. Still frightening, but much more survivable.
Also remember that in PF death is at -CON, not -10, it it's very rare to see a PC have lower than a 10 CON.
First time I ran this the char committed suicide, they rushed back to Sandpoint and the druid there was able to reincarnate him.
Put them in the druids debt, but it showed them that they need to be cautious
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I wouldn't worry *too* much about these. There are only a couple of them that are likely to kill a PC outright, and even then only if they fail multiple saves. None of the haunts will kill a PC on a single failed save.
Add to this the fact that the first few room have haunts that are bad but not fatal, and the PCs should be on their toes.
I've run this module twice for two different groups, and neither time was there any PC death. I don't think anyone even came that close, though one PC did throw himself out the window (he made the save to grab the ledge, afterward, though).
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I wouldn't nerf the haunts. They were pretty freaking effective at making that section of the AP memorable for both the groups I have run through it.
For the first suicide haunt (master bedroom), in one group only one person entered the room while the others were looking at the paintings. The attack is a coup de grace with an improvised weapon dealing a small base damage, which would allow a Fort save against death. In this case, the character made their save, fell into the debris and was found the following round by the other characters who managed to revive them.
The second group had multiple people in the room and managed to subdue the afflicted character before any damage could be done.
BOTH incidents reinforced the "do not go investigating on your own in a haunted house" rule. I mean c'mon, if the players don't realize it is a bad thing to investigate on their own, it is a lesson they should learn and this was an effective means of doing so.
By the time they encountered the second suicide haunt (observatory I think), both parties had learned they were best to stay together at all times and kept the afflicted person from leaping out the window.
The haunt in the portraits room caught a single character in one of the groups. The player took that incident and built up on their character's 'oddities' from it (the character already disliked filth and grime before the incident). It turned into a great role-play moment, especially with the show down with the Skinsaw Man.
This is not one of the haunts, but was a VERY effective method of heightening the sense of horror. When the characters first went to leave the house and the carrion swarms were outside the house, I described the swarms as "thousands of sickly birds, sitting silently on every surface surrounding the house. As you step out the door, they all turn their heads and look directly at you."
One of the groups actually went through all the rations they had amongst the group by staying in the house for 3 days while trying to figure out how to get away from the birds. When they realized how easy it was to get past them, they were stunned.