I'm very interested in playing a spellcaster in PFS with a focus on the First World and its Fey. For this reason, I am likely going to play a Gnome, because of their origins. The two most obvious options appear to be the Fey Bloodline Sorcerer and the First World Summoner.
The former focuses on compulsions and mind-effecting, which a very large quantity of encounters in PFS are completely immune to- Fey Bloodline Sorcerer's laughing touch and compulsions all turn off when we walk into one of the million Pathfinder crypts full of nothing but undead. While the latter is maybe the worst Summoner archetype in the game (second to Brood?). I honestly can't see why anyone would play a First World Summoner besides just really wanting the flavor. So that puts me in an awkward spot, really.
While I value the theme of this character, I also want to be relatively effective. Nobody likes being the guy who has a cool background but never actually does much of anything in the adventure.
Basically, I'm calling on the community to throw me ideas at optimizing the most heavily Fey-based character that I can play. Class/race etc is all flexible within that theme and PFS legal. If you can think of anything, just toss it up here. Thank you.
I'm very interested in playing a spellcaster in PFS with a focus on the First World and its Fey. For this reason, I am likely going to play a Gnome, because of their origins. The two most obvious options appear to be the Fey Bloodline Sorcerer and the First World Summoner.
The former focuses on compulsions and mind-effecting, which a very large quantity of encounters in PFS are completely immune to- Fey Bloodline Sorcerer's laughing touch and compulsions all turn off when we walk into one of the million Pathfinder crypts full of nothing but undead. While the latter is maybe the worst Summoner archetype in the game (second to Brood?). I honestly can't see why anyone would play a First World Summoner besides just really wanting the flavor. So that puts me in an awkward spot, really.
While I value the theme of this character, I also want to be relatively effective. Nobody likes being the guy who has a cool background but never actually does much of anything in the adventure.
Basically, I'm calling on the community to throw me ideas at optimizing the most heavily Fey-based character that I can play. Class/race etc is all flexible within that theme and PFS legal. If you can think of anything, just toss it up here. Thank you.
First world summoner is actually quite nice and seriously underestimated. Look at this thread here for details.
As for fey, you could either take crossblooded:undead/fey bloodline if that is allowed in PFS, or make use of the threnodic spell metamagic feat, latter combined with magical lineage trait on the most important spell you want to use.
Generally speaking you should not exclusively focus on enchantment, just as you should not focus on any other school or magic style too much. I generally go with about 50% of my spells and feats centered around the concept (enchanter/fey in your case), 25% on utility and 25% on other stuff (buffing, debuffing, control etc.).
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Unicorns.
Early access to Pixies.
Satyrs.
Gremlins.
Skill monkey eidolon who isn't subject to banish, etc.
I like First Worlders. They make up for the lack of enchantment spells by providing you with supportive summoned creatures that possess them, and some healing, too.
*Edit: Oh, and you still get access to Elementals, which are some of my favorite summoned creatures.
And you can still take summon monster as a spell if you really want to :-)
What really gets me about First World is that if I'm going to take advantage of the special summons, it means I have to have my Eidolon put away all the time. In which case Master Summoner is flatly superior, isn't it?
And what do Gremlins even do. If I have six of them, they can disable a device or curse a willing person (what?).
What really gets me about First World is that if I'm going to take advantage of the special summons, it means I have to have my Eidolon put away all the time. In which case Master Summoner is flatly superior, isn't it?
And what do Gremlins even do. If I have six of them, they can disable a device or curse a willing person (what?).
Did you look at the thread I linked to?
Special summons: It's that way with all summoner archetypes. Master summoner gives you lots of critters, but they are subject to the same restrictions that all summon monster spells/abilities are (easily countered, difficulties cutting through DR etc.).
Eidolon offers you a customizable beast you can readapt at each level. You can even give him skills, make him humanoid and let him serve you as a butler. And it stays for you the whole time and not just a very short time. Plus you can give it items - try doing that effectively with your summoned critters :-)
The Gremlins have special abilities which can be really nasty. Think of using them to assist, for surprise stuff, tricks/traps... :-)
Alright. You've made a pretty convincing argument for the utility of First Worlder. I can see a Gremlin being more useful than, say, a wolf, just because it has opposable thumbs and is intelligent enough to communicate and do complicated tasks.
With how First Worlder gives so much more to your summons and takes so much away from your eidolon, would it be true that the eidolon should only come out situationally? Or would you still focus on building it up and keep it out in combat anyway?
I guess this is turning into a "how would you build a first worlder" thread.
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Personally, I've always focused my Eidolon on being a skill monkey and a scout. It's really easy to get their skills REALLY high, in addition to getting things like climb, fly, and swim speeds. Combine that with decent defenses, and you've got a passable skill monkey, assuming your summons and personal combat abilities are up to par with the rest of your party.
In addition, I would really recommend picking up the Magic evolutions for your fey eidolon. Not only does it make sense fluff-wise, but it makes sense mechanically, too. That 1/2 BAB doesn't hurt as much when your buddy has access to Daze or Touch of Fatigue at low levels, or a little bit of healing/damage via Acid Arrow and Scorching Ray at higher ones. Unnatural Aura can actually entirely prevent encounters with wild animals if used well, and you can give your eidolon all sorts of perceptive abilities (Blindsense, Blindsight, etc.).
Really, I'd focus on using Summon Nature's Ally in combat, but make sure to learn the Summon Eidolon spell in case I needed it for a specific situation in combat.
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Davor made a lot of good suggestions :-)
Focussing on your eidolon for skills, scouting and magic is really a good thing for a fey summoner. For example, give him use magic device and wands, and you got your backup caster / spell spammer.
You might also want to give it disguise ranks. After all, if you make him humanoid, him being fey-like would probably let him pass rather unnoticed in settlements. This is an RPG advantage that typical eidolons don't have IMO.
Personally, I built an eidolon as a butler for my spoiled rich summoner brat ;-P I gave him ranks in cooking, language skills, some knowledge history and a modern suit to make him look unusual. Just what I did with it, you probably come up with other stuff :-)
Then there are the eidolon and summoning feats.
Summoning:
- Moonlight/sunlight/... summons etc. will help you cut through DR.
- Augment summoning is fantastic
- quicken spell-like ability feat: If it is allowed in PFS, I would definitely look at it. summoning your critters with swift actions is very powerful
- don't forget your summoner: Get him a light crossbow and rapid reload or something similar, or a reach weapon, plus arcane strike and you will have something to do when you are not casting
- your eidolon could also get a reach weapon and just threaten/provide flanking/use the aid another action - all of these are pretty easy, even with a crappy BAB
- improved initiative feat is cool
- remember that you can decide which kind of DR your eidolon gets (alignment or cold iron)
- get items for your summoner and your eidolon
- remember that you have full caster level, just like a bard. So you can make use of items capitalizing on that like arcane blast or crafting feats (though I think I read that they are not allowed in PFS)
- there is a spell called evolution surge or such, use it to apply customizations to your eidolon on the fly
- remember you can adapt your eidolon each time you level up, so don't build something that is useful in 5 levels, build something that is useful now and in the near future
- learn languages and spells like speak with animals if you can to command your nature's allies
I am really not knowledgeable about PFS, so you need to verify validity. But maybe this helps you. :-)
This is all extremely useful. Thank you.
I am really not knowledgeable about PFS
Basically, the no crafting rule, and this page: http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/resources
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The most effective sorcerer I have seen in PFSP.
Sorcerer Wildblooded Sylvan
If you want to go for more of a Fey feel. Taking the feet Fey Foundling from the inner sea world book.
Gnome
Sorcerer Wildblooded Sylvan
Feet : Fey Foundling
Picking up boon companion at level 3. (Unless you go human, then you can take it at level 1.)
IMO the first world summoner. Is lacking greatly compared to a normal summoner. I have looked at it more then a few times. Trying to find a way to make it worth the trade off.
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IMO the first world summoner. Is lacking greatly compared to a normal summoner. I have looked at it more then a few times. Trying to find a way to make it worth the trade off.
I listed some ways here and gave additional ideas above.
Where exactly is it lacking?
Personally I find
- that SNA is not blocked by a simple protection from xxx / magic circle pretty good
- First Worlder gives you early access to healing
- that the extra critters like gremlin's SR and DR is cool
- that augment summoning should be more useful with SNA, and that the extra feats for SNA make them a lot more powerful
So what is it you are looking for or where you see it fall shortly? :-)
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Lest look at what your giving up first. Then look at what you really gain. I see no up side to the first world summoner. If you want to go summoner just have your Eidolon look like a fey. Just don't take the archetype.
Eidolon
1D10 down to 1D6
Full BAB down to 1/2 BAB
Darkvision 60ft down to Low Light Vision
Summons
Summon monster = Summon natures ally : But over all when you look at what your summoning. It should read summon flaker. Thats about all there good for. Starting they are good as you level and your summoning CR far below your level. It just gets worse not better. Your encounter range is your level -3 (very easy encounter) to +3 (hard encounter). Let's look at level 7 when you start having problems. Your summoning a CR 4 to fight CR 7, or even a CR 4 to fight CR 10. Grabs Random Scenario Tier 1-7 Subtier 6-7 Encounters CR 7 CR 8 CR 7 CR 8. Granted some are combination of monsters of lower level.
I CR 1/2 You are level 1-2
II CR 1 You are level 3-4
III CR 2 You are level 5-6
IV CR 3-4 You are level 7-8
V CR 5-6 You are level 9-10
VI CR 7-8 You are level 11-12
Protection from XXX / magic circle really. You want to know how many times encounters have this ready before hand? I have yet to see it more then a hand full of times, and then it's really easy see and dispel.
It gives you early access to healing how. UMD class skill cha based caster level 1 with Cha 14 (+1 rank + 3 Class skill +2 Cha Mod +2 Trait = +8) At level 1 you need to roll a 12 to use a wand of cure light wounds. If you wanted to use skill focus feet you could move it to a 9.
Lest look at what your giving up first. Then look at what you really gain. I see no up side to the first world summoner. If you want to go summoner just have your Eidolon look like a fey. Just don't take the archetype.
Eidolon
I see it differently :-)
1D10 down to 1D6
Full BAB down to 1/2 BAB
incorrect, it't effectively 3/4 bab, so the loss is not so bad.
For that you gain that the type of your eidolon is not outsider anymore, so you can resurrect it and use spells and abilities on it that would not work otherwise. Your eidolon also gains more skill points. Finally, the choice of dr/cold iron is not easily overcome by natural weapons like those of most critters.
Darkvision 60ft down to Low Light Vision
Depending on the campaign low-light vision is more useful. Also, you can still get darkvision as an evolution if you want to
Summons
Summon monster = Summon natures ally : But over all when you look at what your summoning. It should read summon flaker. Thats about all there good for. Starting they are good as you level and your summoning CR far below your level. It just gets worse not better. Your encounter range is your level -3 (very easy encounter) to +3 (hard encounter). Let's look at level 7 when you start having problems. Your summoning a CR 4 to fight CR 7, or even a CR 4 to fight CR 10. Grabs Random Scenario Tier 1-7 Subtier 6-7 Encounters CR 7 CR 8 CR 7 CR 8. Granted some are combination of monsters of lower level.
I CR 1/2 You are level 1-2
II CR 1 You are level 3-4
III CR 2 You are level 5-6
IV CR 3-4 You are level 7-8
V CR 5-6 You are level 9-10
VI CR 7-8 You are level 11-12
I wonder how druids ever used their summons ;-) It's not that bad, and you need to factor the feats I referenced in. Also, the summon monster spells/abilities have the big disadvantage that a lot of those monsters' strengths (and thus CR) results from special abilities such as summoning or teleporting - all of those are not available when summoned, so they are actually much weaker. And their powers are often rather underwhelming (low DCs or damage dice or such).
SNA on the other hand often have abilities such as trample or pounce which always work, regardless of SR or - in most cases - saves.Also, SNA make much better spies and scouts since they are no monster and thus do not raise as much suspicion.
Protection from XXX / magic circle really. You want to know how many times encounters have this ready before hand? I have yet to see it more then a hand full of times, and then it's really easy see and dispel.
As soon as outsiders like devils or demons appear, they almost always have something like dispel good, unholy aura or the above spells on them. So yes, it comes up a lot.
And don't forget those added critters, they are nice.
It gives you early access to healing how. UMD class skill cha based caster level 1 with Cha 14 (+1 rank + 3 Class skill +2 Cha Mod +2 Trait = +8) At level 1 you need to roll a 12 to use a wand of cure light wounds. If you wanted to use skill focus feet you could move it to a 9.
Pretty bad IMO. If you fail - and you will repeatedly - with a 1 it's not good. I prefer reliable access :-)
If you want to go for those other archetypes, do so. But the first worlder has its strengths and is a rather well-executed archetype IMO :-)
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I'm very interested in playing a spellcaster in PFS with a focus on the First World and its Fey. For this reason, I am likely going to play a Gnome, because of their origins. The two most obvious options appear to be the Fey Bloodline Sorcerer and the First World Summoner.
The former focuses on compulsions and mind-effecting, which a very large quantity of encounters in PFS are completely immune to- Fey Bloodline Sorcerer's laughing touch and compulsions all turn off when we walk into one of the million Pathfinder crypts full of nothing but undead.
The most important thing you seem to be forgetting about Fey Sorcerers is that although their bloodline stuff may be worthless against undead, they're still Sorcerers. For their non-bloodline spells, they can do whatever they want. In fact, the most directly damaging level 0 spell in the game is Disrupt Undead, whose only downside is that it only works on undead. But if you want to blast undead, pick up Scorching Ray or Fireball later. Or just go with normal non-blasting spells like Grease, Web, Create Pit, and Haste that work equally well against living or undead foes.
Also, undead may be common in PFS, but they're hardly the only thing you'll be facing. I have a friend whose ranger character's first favored enemy was humans, and she does great with that in PFS. From what I've seen, humans are clearly the most common enemy in PFS adventures, with undead in a distant second place behind them.
I'm very interested in playing a spellcaster in PFS with a focus on the First World and its Fey. For this reason, I am likely going to play a Gnome, because of their origins. The two most obvious options appear to be the Fey Bloodline Sorcerer and the First World Summoner.
The former focuses on compulsions and mind-effecting, which a very large quantity of encounters in PFS are completely immune to- Fey Bloodline Sorcerer's laughing touch and compulsions all turn off when we walk into one of the million Pathfinder crypts full of nothing but undead.
The most important thing you seem to be forgetting about Fey Sorcerers is that although their bloodline stuff may be worthless against undead, they're still Sorcerers. For their non-bloodline spells, they can do whatever they want. In fact, the most directly damaging level 0 spell in the game is Disrupt Undead, whose only downside is that it only works on undead. But if you want to blast undead, pick up Scorching Ray or Fireball later. Or just go with normal non-blasting spells like Grease, Web, Create Pit, and Haste that work equally well against living or undead foes.
Also, undead may be common in PFS, but they're hardly the only thing you'll be facing. I have a friend whose ranger character's first favored enemy was humans, and she does great with that in PFS. From what I've seen, humans are clearly the most common enemy in PFS adventures, with undead in a distant second place behind them.
+1 :-)
To add to this, fey sorcerers get some of the best bloodline abilities of all:
Laughing Touch: great defensive ability. make someone laugh to get away without AoO
Woodland Stride: Move quickly through the woods. Pretty useful, especially for maneuvering in combat
Fleeting Glance: Greater Invisibility, spell-like, and round-based mechanic? Fantastic!
Fey Magic: OK, not for PFS, but awesome! Roll twice, at will, for SR? This is better than any feat about SR or any comparable ability I know of.
Soul of the Fey: Also not PFS, but pretty cool.
So the fey sorcerer can do a lot of stuff, and the free boost to compulsion spells is a rather nice addition.
With the First Worlder looking better by the minute, I'm certainly leaning that direction, if only because my favorite spell in the game (Haste) is obtained as follows: Sorcerer level 6, Wizard level 5, Summoner level 4. This hadn't even occurred to me until a little while ago.
In fact, though Summoner's casting is played up like a secondary feature, they actually learn a lot of very good Transmutations at the same level as a Wizard, or even before. Which, if I were a Fey Sorcerer, I'd probably take a Compulsion each spell level because the DC bonus pretty much means I have to, then otherwise pile up nothing but Transmutations. I've always associated the Fey with that sort of thing. If Baleful Polymorph isn't the most first-worldy SoD I don't know what is. "You're a squirrel now."
Sorcerers get a few more spells per day at each level, but their progression is so painful. And SNA is sounding better every post.
I think First Worlder it is. I may throw something together for that now and put it up here for criticism.
I'll probably build a Fey Sorcerer too anyway, just for good measure.
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incorrect, it't effectively 3/4 bab[/url], so the loss is not so bad.
I checked both PFSRD and my hard copy of Inner Sea Magic. They both list the same thing.
Eidolon
Hit Dice : d6 Hit Die (instead of d10).
BAB : Equal to 1/2 the eidolon’s Hit Dice.
Good/Bad Saves : The eidolon’s good saves area always Reflex and Will.
This otherwise works like and replaces the eidolon ability of a normal summoner.
I have played allot of high level games. Using summons after level 5 is all but useless. It is a minor problem at best for any thing your fighting at the upper levels.
incorrect, it't effectively 3/4 bab[/url], so the loss is not so bad.I checked both PFSRD and my hard copy of Inner Sea Magic. They both list the same thing.
Eidolon
Hit Dice : d6 Hit Die (instead of d10).
BAB : Equal to 1/2 the eidolon’s Hit Dice.
Good/Bad Saves : The eidolon’s good saves area always Reflex and Will.
This otherwise works like and replaces the eidolon ability of a normal summoner.I have played allot of high level games. Using summons after level 5 is all but useless. It is a minor problem at best for any thing your fighting at the upper levels.
The original is not as good as you implied, that's what I meant :-)
Summons definitely work at high levels, maybe you just haven't found the way to do it? ;-)
I am also speaking from experience, btw.
incorrect, it't effectively 3/4 bab[/url], so the loss is not so bad.I checked both PFSRD and my hard copy of Inner Sea Magic. They both list the same thing.
Eidolon
Hit Dice : d6 Hit Die (instead of d10).
BAB : Equal to 1/2 the eidolon’s Hit Dice.
Good/Bad Saves : The eidolon’s good saves area always Reflex and Will.
This otherwise works like and replaces the eidolon ability of a normal summoner.I have played allot of high level games. Using summons after level 5 is all but useless. It is a minor problem at best for any thing your fighting at the upper levels.
The original is not as good as you implied, that's what I meant :-)
Summons definitely work at high levels, maybe you just haven't found the way to do it? ;-)
I am also speaking from experience, btw.
To expand on the bab so it is not misunderstood: full bab means for me according to level, and that's what many will probably understand. You were referencing hit dice and are correct that the fw eidolon loses a lot in bab. I just don't think it matters for its role :-)
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Also, and this is a little rules iffy, I've come to the conclusion that you can use your SNA SLAs while your eidolon is out. Nowhere does it say you can't, as opposed with other archetypes.
Also, and this is a little rules iffy, I've come to the conclusion that you can use your SNA SLAs while your eidolon is out. Nowhere does it say you can't, as opposed with other archetypes.
PFS does run on RAW, and by the RAW you appear to be correct. In fact, along the same line of thought, you could also have multiple summons at one time (not that I would often want to blow all my turns filling a fight full of monkeys). The downside is that by this completely flat interpretation of the written words, the summons only last 1 round per level instead of 1 minute per level and take a full round to summon just like the spell (since the Summon Nature ability for First Worlder doesn't say otherwise).
Anyway, excellent catch, thank you!
Also, the Fey Foundling feat is so full of flavor. Thanks for pointing it out to me, Calagnar.
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Also, and this is a little rules iffy, I've come to the conclusion that you can use your SNA SLAs while your eidolon is out. Nowhere does it say you can't, as opposed with other archetypes.
I would be interested in knowing if this was intentional, or if it is yet another editing mistake from the oh-so-rushed Ultimate Combat.
It's sort of nice, but for the reasons in my previous post, it's also really harsh. Full round casting and round per level duration is a very high price to pay for being able to summon more than one squirrel at a time.
I'm really only expanding on what Jackissocool said, but yes. Basically, you either interpret that First Worlder's summon completely replaces Summoner's summon (which means it takes a full round to cast and only lasts 1 round per level but can be used while your eidolon or other summons are out), or you interpret that First Worlder's summon is a modification of Summoner's summon, in which case they function the same way except that it's Summon Nature's Ally instead of Summon Monster.
You can't just carry over the parts of the Summoner's ability you like and then say the others don't apply. It either all carries over or none of it does.
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Hm, good catch on the ability. here is the text.
Starting at 1st level, a first worlder can cast summon nature’s ally a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. At levels where a summoner would gain a more powerful summon monster spell as a spell-like ability, he instead gains the equivalent summon nature’s ally spell (at 19th level, he can use summon nature’s ally IX or gate). When a first worlder gains a summon nature’s ally spell as a spell-like ability, he adds it to his class spell list (he must still select it as a spell known if he wants to cast it as an actual spell).
This ability otherwise replaces the summon monster ability of a normal summoner.
I think what they meant to write was "This ability otherwise works as the summon monster ability of a normal summoner."
Yeah, that makes it kind of weird overall - the last sentence seems to make no sense :-/
So I was looking at Summon Monster vs Summon Nature's Ally, and noticed something a little off-putting. It seems like they're almost identical spells, except that Summon Monster gives everything a template. For example, Nature's Ally V can summon a Dire Lion, while Monster V can summon a celestial/fiendish Dire Lion. There are a very large number of examples exactly like that where Summon Monster is just strictly better.
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So I was looking at Summon Monster vs Summon Nature's Ally, and noticed something a little off-putting. It seems like they're almost identical spells, except that Summon Monster gives everything a template. For example, Nature's Ally V can summon a Dire Lion, while Monster V can summon a celestial/fiendish Dire Lion. There are a very large number of examples exactly like that where Summon Monster is just strictly better.
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The templates are nice, yes.
However, you run into all of those alignment restrictions I mentioned with summon monster. Also you do not get to take the sunlight/moonlight/... summoning feats - they make your summons count a lot better.|
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So I was looking at Summon Monster vs Summon Nature's Ally, and noticed something a little off-putting. It seems like they're almost identical spells, except that Summon Monster gives everything a template. For example, Nature's Ally V can summon a Dire Lion, while Monster V can summon a celestial/fiendish Dire Lion. There are a very large number of examples exactly like that where Summon Monster is just strictly better.
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True, but:
1) Elementals are some of the best summons, and are equal for both summoning spells.
2) The feats mentioned by Sangalor make your summons at least equally as useful.
3) You still have a wide variety of utility covered by Summon Nature's Ally, and don't forget that First Worlder ADDS creatures to the list, including early access to Pixies, Satyrs, and Unicorns, in addition to creatures like the cyclops (a group of 1d4+2 Cyclops [~4] gain an automatic hit with Power Attacking greataxes for 3d6+13 damage each [~92 automatic damage, WAY more if any of them confirm their crits]).
There are plenty of great options that aren't available to the traditional summoner.
*Edit: I would also like to add that I agree with Sangalor's interpretation, and believe the wording of "Summon Nature’s Ally (Sp)" to be an oversight or mistake. FAQ'd for clarification.