Thanks for the feedback everyone...
One thing that surprises me, to be honest, is how much folks miss the class/race breakdowns. After doing a dozen or so of these, we started feeling like that information was repetitive and took up far too much space, and in an attempt to start diverting the player's guides away from being giant walls of text (something that ramping back on the subsystems will have a MUCH larger impact on starting with Shattered Star) and thus less intimidating for players to navigate, we decided to consolidate all the race and class info. Further, launching an Adventure Path is VERY difficult. You may have noticed that our Adventure Path line is often falling behind schedule, and it's currently more behind than it's ever been before. By making as many elements of an AP simpler for us to produce... we hope to get better at doing these things on time. And shortening the player's guides (both in reducing the subsystems and in this earlier step of consolidating and reducing the somewhat repetitive class/race breakdowns... which are actually quite a bit more difficult to generate than they might seem for a few reasons)
Going back to the full class/race breakdowns is certainly an option... but if folks just miss them because they liked the format or the way it looked... that's not a good enough reason. We can give out the same information in a page what it took multiple pages to do in previous Player's Guides... so it's gotta be a pretty compelling reason to make me want to switch back.
SO!
If you miss the class/race breakdowns... let us know WHAT you miss from them that the new format doesn't do for you.
Hey James, I've found over the years that I'm not so good at saying why something works or doesn't work for me, so I'm not going to try to justify my feelings on this one. On the other hand, I'm pretty good at telling whether something works...
...and without any doubt, the race/class breakdowns do an EXCELLENT job of getting me excited about playing an adventure path. Again, I don't know why--it's just a "kid in the candy store" feeling I get as I contemplate all the race/class options I might take. And, sad to say, I certainly missed that feeling of excitement when I read over the S&S player's guide.
Hope that helps.
Perhaps the tired old 'whats up with my race and class in this AP' that has been shuffled away (thankfully) from the Player's Guide could be made into a Blog Post, slightly before the PG for any given AP launches?
This would be the best of both worlds for new players (since the URL would be included in the PG) and old, who will get neat things in the PGs, rather than retreads.
Work in concept, but JJ already said one of their problem is having the time to do this.
Yes he did. I see it as a lesser problem and timesink of efficiency compared to the alternative. :)
Creative Director
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Whether or not we make the race/class entries a large blog post or a part of a Player's Guide... the amount of time it takes to write, develop, and edit those words doesn't change. If we don't have the time to do a big race/class entry in a Player's Guide (which is why we're shifting away from that model), we certainly don't have time to do them as blog posts.
have you tried ESP? :)
I would suggest you make it part of a community contest and crowd source the ideas instead of writing them yourselves...
Just an idea...
Sean
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Director of Game Development
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One thing we have done going forward is replace giving a class by class breakdown with a more generic Character Tips section for the Player's Guides. This past week I was working on not one, but two Player's Guides and this was the approach we took. It still gives a fair idea of what kind of things a character might experience in the course of the Adventure Path, but it doesn't bother telling people how to play their druid or which feats they should take for their rogue.
It's essentially spoiler-free advice on what would be useful over the course of the campaign. Hopefully we'll make everyone happy with the Shattered Star Player's Guide and the new Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide.
Not everyone has the money for it.I think I'd like to see the Campaign Settings become a more integral part of the Adventure Paths, and cover some of this information. In this case, use Isles of the Shackles to present all of the character information - races common and uncommon, how the classes are viewed, etc. This information is invaluable not only to the players of the AP, but also to the GM looking to build their own campaign in the region, so flesh it out fully in the Campaign Settings book, and use the AP Player's Guide for AP-specific information such as Traits, race/class issues specific to the AP (where different from the region), and especially what archetypes are most appropriate for this specific campaign.
Basically, Isles of the Shackles should be the place to go to find out about the potential for Half-Elven Bards throughout the Shackles, but the Skulls and Shackles Player's Guide is where you should look to know that Buccaneer Bards are highly appropriate for the AP.
Or is on board with the idea.
I like that the Campaign Setting books provide additional detail. I also like that they are not required to run an AP.
I also don't think that an AP's Player's Guide should have to spoon-feed what classes/races/archetypes are appropriate. I think knowing that it's a pirate-themed AP should be enough info to know that pirate-themed archetypes are appropriate and that paladins probably aren't.
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The issue I realized was the lack of Racial write-ups. Classes are obvious, what is less obvious is how races fit in. If I didn't buy Isles of the Shackles (a GM supplement) I would have had no idea there was such a thing as Ocean Elves. I had to write an entire "racial" section up for my players some of whom are unfamiliar with Golarion.
Also Tengu have a chance to shine but there is almost no information on them (except for a monster write-up in a GM supplement). Paizo if you're going to stick with this format please, please consider putting a few sentences on each core race and one non-standard race appropriate to the AP. As it is I struggle to figure out how dwarves and gnomes fit into the Shackles.
The issue I realized was the lack of Racial write-ups. Classes are obvious, what is less obvious is how races fit in. If I didn't buy Isles of the Shackles (a GM supplement) I would have had no idea there was such a thing as Ocean Elves. I had to write an entire "racial" section up for my players some of whom are unfamiliar with Golarion.
The passage you refer to in Isles of the Shackles states that the elves of the Shackles refer to themselves as Ocean Elves and their non-Shackles brethren as "Landlocked" elves, but that "no real racial distinction exists" (p.24). Dwarves have something of a presence on Tempest Cay (especially in Drenchport) and Widowmaker Isle, while Gnomes are not very common in the archipelago at all.
Race is not very important in the Shackles as it is elsewhere. It's more of a swashbuckling meritocracy/kleptocracy. There are a couple notable exceptions (e.g., Kepre Dua, Mgange Cove), but for the most part one's skills carry the day, not one's genes.
And there's my $.02
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The issue I realized was the lack of Racial write-ups. Classes are obvious, what is less obvious is how races fit in. If I didn't buy Isles of the Shackles (a GM supplement) I would have had no idea there was such a thing as Ocean Elves. I had to write an entire "racial" section up for my players some of whom are unfamiliar with Golarion.The passage you refer to in Isles of the Shackles states that the elves of the Shackles refer to themselves as Ocean Elves and their non-Shackles brethren as "Landlocked" elves, but that "no real racial distinction exists" (p.24). Dwarves have something of a presence on Tempest Cay (especially in Drenchport) and Widowmaker Isle, while Gnomes are not very common in the archipelago at all.
Race is not very important in the Shackles as it is elsewhere. It's more of a swashbuckling meritocracy/kleptocracy. There are a couple notable exceptions (e.g., Kepre Dua, Mgange Cove), but for the most part one's skills carry the day, not one's genes.
And there's my $.02
Thanks I appreciate that, the issue is that I encourage my players to play up their racial distinctions where possible to avoid Star Trek's "humans with bumpy heads" syndrome. Even a cultural melting pot like the Shackles should be a 10 course meal of races, not a grey sludge. If players are to create interesting unique backstories for a GM to tee off from they need more than: "Rig Redbeard is a Dwarf from the shackles, raised by dwarves in Port Peril who wants to be a pirate".
"Rig Redbeard is a Dwarf from the dwarf controlled settlement of Rochefort, a canoneer on the fort walls, he was disgraced for being drunk on the job when a pirate attack breached the walls on his watch. Forced out of the Rochefort he seeks to hunt down the scurvy pirates that stole his honor by any means necessary and return to Rocheforte with their heads."Much more interesting.
Whether or not we make the race/class entries a large blog post or a part of a Player's Guide... the amount of time it takes to write, develop, and edit those words doesn't change. If we don't have the time to do a big race/class entry in a Player's Guide (which is why we're shifting away from that model), we certainly don't have time to do them as blog posts.
A better way of expressing the edge I could perceive in the method mentioned, was that i thought a blog post creation-cycle might allow for postponement of the needed time since the medium is instant rather than soft bound with all of publishing slowness. But it's time either way, that's going to waste, I now see.
Mr. Daigle's assurances and yours quite sway me, for everything you say, makes great sense.
On the note of crowd-sourcing...you might add a 'nominate for canon' button alongside the FAQ button. It could give you a sense of which ideas are well-used/appreciated, without negating your discerning final word on the matter.
Whether or not we make the race/class entries a large blog post or a part of a Player's Guide... the amount of time it takes to write, develop, and edit those words doesn't change. If we don't have the time to do a big race/class entry in a Player's Guide (which is why we're shifting away from that model), we certainly don't have time to do them as blog posts.A better way of expressing the edge I could perceive in the method mentioned, was that i thought a blog post creation-cycle might allow for postponement of the needed time since the medium is instant rather than soft bound with all of publishing slowness. But it's time either way, that's going to waste, I now see.
Mr. Daigle's assurances and yours quite sway me, for everything you say, makes great sense.
Jaerc, you got it wrong, the problem isn't making the blog, but the time it takes to create and adjust the info, otherwise they would just make bigger Player Guide.
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One thing we have done going forward is replace giving a class by class breakdown with a more generic Character Tips section for the Player's Guides. This past week I was working on not one, but two Player's Guides and this was the approach we took. It still gives a fair idea of what kind of things a character might experience in the course of the Adventure Path, but it doesn't bother telling people how to play their druid or which feats they should take for their rogue.
It's essentially spoiler-free advice on what would be useful over the course of the campaign. Hopefully we'll make everyone happy with the Shattered Star Player's Guide and the new Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide.
I love the new design for the classes/feats/skills/etc tips.
However,What Skull and Shackles Player's Guide is missing is how different races are treated or where they likely come from. This is how I came to be in this thread (searching the forums for skull and shackles races)
Thank you for the above posts regarding Isles of the Shackles. I am trying to find a story for my half-elf druid (very water based).
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Director of Game Development
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For the Skull and Shackles Adventure Path race is less of an issue than anywhere else. The Shackles is very much a might makes right kinda place. Folks don't care what you are (or even where you came from); they're much more interested in the cut of your sails.
Was the identity of the male pirate on the cover of this handbook ever revealed? Or is he no one in particular? He looks great. It seems like he might have been an alternate take on Captain Harrigan; although I like the other Captain Harrigan art (as on the cover of Wormwood Mutiny) a lot too.