If you can fly you can just not go through that hex, and you do have a point that if someone flies through a square with a pit that it could be seen as not being able to charge. I think the specific rule of ignoring an obstacle takes precedence, but I can't prove it.
If you jump you can just not go through that hex either. There's NO difference.
This is not correct. In real life it is much harder to turn while running than it is to jump while running if you expect to maintain speed. The "no turn" rule makes perfect sense while charging. The idea that you cannot jump while charging makes no sense, which is why this debate is going on at all.
However, per RAW you only need a minimum of two squares of movement to Charge. So clearly 'turning before a charge reduces your speed' isn't relevant since you pick that speed back up in two hexes.
How can you jump and not go through a hex?
You might be trying to say you are jumping so high that you avoid the hex with the pit, but that means you are not traveling in a straight line once you get 10 feet up.
You see the rules as "you can not complete the charge if you can not beat the acrobatics check to clear an obstacle", which would mean either you fall in the pit.
I see them as saying you can't charge period. That jump check never comes up because the charge action never even began.
How can you jump and not go through a hex?
You might be trying to say you are jumping so high that you avoid the hex with the pit, but that means you are not traveling in a straight line once you get 10 feet up.
Each hex is 5 feet high, not 10. So if 10 is the ceiling why not?
Besides, the map is 2 Dimensional, so how is the line not "straight"?
I see them as saying you can't charge period. That jump check never comes up because the charge action never even began.
And I'm saying, that even if the writers come in here and say you're right. It's STILL bs, because its physically possible, even if "by the rules" you can't even try. Imo you can charge into a brick wall if you want, doesn't mean it will work.
Hell, there's a specific feat that says you can overrun people in your path, so why not obstacles?
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I see them as saying you can't charge period. That jump check never comes up because the charge action never even began.
However, we have already agreed that the action can, in fact, begin. This is the case for the covered pit or the illusion-concealed pit. The charge action can absolutely begin. This could also apply to someone who is, for example, so emotional that he doesn't care that there is a pit or a wall in his way; he's willing to throw his life away in a suicide charge if necessary.
Yes the hex is 5 feet high and 5 feet wide, and 5 feet long. From the ground(where the pit is) up to 5 feet up is the hex. If you jump high enough to go above the 5 foot imaginary ceiling you have left the hex and are no longer moving in a straight line. If you did not clear 5 feet then you are still in that hex.
I do think that you should be able to jump going off of common sense alone, but the way the rules are written seem to disagree.
"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
That is the issue. If it said "you can't complete the charge" that would be a different story since it would assume that failure to bypass the obstacle means your charge stops, but it just says "you can't charge".
I see them as saying you can't charge period. That jump check never comes up because the charge action never even began.However, we have already agreed that the action can, in fact, begin. This is the case for the covered pit or the illusion-concealed pit. The charge action can absolutely begin. This could also apply to someone who is, for example, so emotional that he doesn't care that there is a pit or a wall in his way; he's willing to throw his life away in a suicide charge if necessary.
We didn't really agree on that. I was telling how a GM should run it to avoid giving his hand away since the rules are not perfect. RAW the player could not charge if there is obstacle there such as the illusion-concealed pit. If the GM says "you can't charge" the it ruins immersion though.
As for the covered pit trap the scenario is every similar. By the rules it does not work well with a charging character.
It says nothing can hinder your movement( such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Wraitstrike, if you jump over the pit, did it hinder your path? Isn't a hindrance something that causes a penalty or negative effect? If you pass the jump check, you receive no mechanical hindrance so you were not hindered by yhe pit. That is rules as written. I believe you are using rules as interpreted.
The RAW says if the square contains _____ I can't charge. It does not say if I can overcome _____ that I may charge anyway. It does not say I may attempt a charge.
Does the square contain ______?
Yes
No charging.
I do admit that is a very literal reading of it if that is not what they meant it could have been written so as to afford more leeway.
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The RAW says if the square contains _____ I can't charge. It does not say if I can overcome _____ that I may charge anyway. It does not say I may attempt a charge.
Does the square contain ______?
Yes
No charging.
I do admit that is a very literal reading of it if that is not what they meant it could have been written so as to afford more leeway.
Until you also (looking at RAW) and see that Obstacles can (not must or always) hamper movement.
Especially when you compare the text of Difficult Terrain to Obstacles.
Difficult Terrain, Such as (several examples), Hampers Movement.
By RAW, DT and O's are treated differently in this regard. Otherwise, it would say "Obstacles Hamper movement". Not Can. Can implies that not all Obstacles Hamper movement.
To further the point.....
Difficult Terrain states "You can't Run or Charge across Difficult Terrain". Why doesn't the section on Obstacles contain the same wording?
There's way too many inconsistencies here to let it go.
The RAW says if the square contains _____ I can't charge. It does not say if I can overcome _____ that I may charge anyway. It does not say I may attempt a charge.
Does the square contain ______?
Yes
No charging.
I do admit that is a very literal reading of it if that is not what they meant it could have been written so as to afford more leeway.Until you also (looking at RAW) and see that Obstacles can (not must or always) hamper movement.
Especially when you compare the text of Difficult Terrain to Obstacles.
Difficult Terrain, Such as (several examples), Hampers Movement.
By RAW, DT and O's are treated differently in this regard. Otherwise, it would say "Obstacles Hamper movement". Not Can. Can implies that not all Obstacles Hamper movement.To further the point.....
Difficult Terrain states "You can't Run or Charge across Difficult Terrain". Why doesn't the section on Obstacles contain the same wording?There's way too many inconsistencies here to let it go.
That does not change anything about what I just wrote. I said nothing about hampering. I said(as per the book) if the square contains ______ you can't charge.
Creatures with a climb speed, using that method of movement, can never charge per Wraith's logic. Because, a vertical surface is ALWAYS an obstacle, and charge doesn't have Climb listed in the section about 'may avoid obstacles', only flight and incoroporeal.
Same applies to swimming creatures, they may not charge. A water hex is always an obstacle, and since swim is not listed as being able to bypass obstacles, swimming creatures cannot charge (dolphin attack methods be damned).
This also applies to earthglide, since earthglide is not in the list either.
Sorry Wraith, your interpretation of the rule leads to at least 3 methods of movement being outlawed for a charge which doesn't make sense.
I thought I saw a rule saying you can use climb or burrow to charge. I will look for that rule, and then respond to rest of the post.
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Even creatures with climb speeds cannot charge, since you can only climb with move actions (making a climb check for each one). Charge is a full-round action.
I sometimes wonder how often these sorts of rules forensics episodes are mostly about showing what deep rules expertise the arguer has, and isn't really about the issue at hand at all.
The few times I was invited into their events, I found I always SUCKED at debate club.
Nevermind that was a 3.5 ruling from the rules of the game article. PF does not have that restriction.
Where do the rules say a water hex is an obstacle?
A lot of the rules don't make sense. It does not makes sense to not be able to jump that pit, but that is the RAW. Well it does not say you can't jump, but it does say you can't charge.
RAI I want to be wrong.
Where do the rules say a water hex is an obstacle?
An obstacle is anything that stops your standard movement.
A water square stops your standard movement, you have to switch to swim to move through it, ergo, it stops your charge, even if you have a swim speed. The charge rules only talk about standard movement, with exceptions for flight and ethereal characters (per your quote and logic), ergo, you can't charge in water, because swim doesn't say you can, and the charge text doesn't mention swim.
Yes, water would indeed be a considerable obstacle.
I would make allowances for creatures with swim speeds that both start and end their charge while fully submerged in the water, however.
Well I haven't seen anything that suggests the jump is 'ok', so for me I'm sticking with the 'obstacle = no charge'.
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Where do the rules say a water hex is an obstacle?
An obstacle is anything that stops your standard movement.
A water square stops your standard movement, you have to switch to swim to move through it, ergo, it stops your charge, even if you have a swim speed. The charge rules only talk about standard movement, with exceptions for flight and ethereal characters (per your quote and logic), ergo, you can't charge in water, because swim doesn't say you can, and the charge text doesn't mention swim.
If you have a swim speed I fail to see how water should stop your movement. Perhaps as part of the charge the amphibious creature dove into the water to get to its prey.
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My 2 cents: Charge is about maintaining momentum, hence the bonus to hit and with certain weapons bonus to damage. It's also about maintaing a velocity where one cannot effectively stop on a dime, hence the penalty to defense and bonus for certain brace weapons. The charge indicates "nothing can hinder your movement." However, the pit may or may not hinder movement at this point. It is an unknown. The same would apply if there were illusions covering up something that would hinder movement. Would you declare a charge invalid if there was something the character did not know would hinder their movement? Hidden pits, traps, etc. "can hinder" movement, but that would not invalidate the charge from being declared. What it would do is require some common sense adjudication that when the obstacle becomes apparent and hinders movement, the charge is invalidated and the full-round action lost.
If the momentum can be maintained, which is the point of a charge, then there is no reason obstacles cannot be overcome. A horse leaping over something is not hindered. Quite the opposite - it's moving forward at its intended target unhampered.
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What if an enemy has a readied action to cast expeditious excavation on the ground in the charge lane? Is the charge null and void because it will be impossible? What if the readied action is set to cast when the character charges, but the character decides to jump from standing as his entire charge? Does he stop in mid-air because it becomes illegal to charge after he begins?
This discussion is being derailed by questions that have answers...
Special: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.
So, a creature with a swim speed treats water as a non-obstacle.
Check: You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.
A character that flies does not need to make a fly check to move forward in a straight line.
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.
So the creature may begin flying (free), make a charge and either A) continue flying if it moved more than half it's speed or B) end the flight as a free action.
As others have said, jumping is not a form of movement... it is a way of circumventing obstacles..
Charge text doesn't say 'if it's an obstacle to you', it just says 'if it's an obstacle'. The fact that water is an obstacle prevents swim charges, even if it's not an obstacle to a creature with a swim speed. This is STRICT RAW. I don't agree with it, and think it's a bad interpretation, but it IS strict RAW.
None of the arguments above for why swim should work with a charge don't ALSO apply to jumps, or earthglide. Just because it doesn't require a skill check doesn't change the text as written on charge.
@mdt
The "strict RAW" stance would have to take into account the game's definition for obstacles as well as the definition of charge...
Obstacles: Like difficult terrain, obstacles can hamper movement. If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle, in addition to the cost to move into the square on the other side. If you don't have sufficient movement to cross the obstacle and move into the square on the other side, you can't cross it. Some obstacles may also require a skill check to cross.
On the other hand, some obstacles block movement entirely. A character can't move through a blocking obstacle.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are able to avoid most obstacles.
So the "obstacle for you" idea manifests itself in the last line for Flying and Incorporeal creatures. Without this line I'd agree with your strict RAW, but I cannot because of its existence. This also would apply to creatures with a swim speed, water is not an obstacle for them. They can even use Run in the water...
It doesn't say 'Swimming creatures can avoid some obstacles', so I don't see how your argument applies to swim, but not jump. It's either A or B, not A when I want A, and B when I want B.
EDIT : Also, earthglide still has the same problem.
It doesn't say 'Swimming creatures can avoid some obstacles', so I don't see how your argument applies to swim, but not jump. It's either A or B, not A when I want A, and B when I want B.
There is no movement speed for jumping - that's the point I'm driving at.
It doesn't say 'Swimming creatures can avoid some obstacles', so I don't see how your argument applies to swim, but not jump. It's either A or B, not A when I want A, and B when I want B.There is no movement speed for jumping - that's the point I'm driving at.
Bestiary III has a creature with a jumping speed.
Speed: A jiang-shi moves only by hopping. This mode of movement is somewhat less swift than regular movement, and thus a jiang-shi's base speed is reduced by 10 feet from the base creature's speed, to a minimum of 10 feet. This unusual mode of movement allows the jiang-shi to ignore the effects of difficult terrain on movement, and makes it impossible to trip. Other speeds (like fly or swim speeds) are not affected by this reduction.
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That's an interesting note about the jiang-shi; I was going to mention a kangaroo, since no one can deny that they move by jumping. However, neither can anyone deny that a kangaroo would not be hindered in the least by a 10' pit.
Regardless, I believe that jumping is not and need not be mentioned because it is subsumed by normal movement. The point upthread about someone who jumps as the totality of the charge (perhaps magically enchanced) is a valid one. Someone capable of, say, a 60' jump could and should be considered charging. If not, whatever realism we can bring to a fantasy world from our real life experiences goes out the window.
Consider also the application of this rule to, for instance, a lion. To a great cat, a 10' jump is an unmentionable triviality. A single stride in its charge would carry it farther than the pit it wide. Yet the rules would insist that sich a creature can not charge and easily ignore the obstacle -- something that we all know is not true.
Ruling that a charge never began in the first place if there was an unknown or invisible obstacle in the way is not logical. Common sense would dictate that the charge did, in fact, begin, but was interrupted along the way.
Whatever your feeling on the matter, please click the FAQ if you have not done so already. Perhaps massive attention will get a response and a final ruling on the jump obstacle-charge issue.
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How would creature size factor in? A 10' pit is immense to a Small goblin but nothing to a Gargantuan creature. Is there anything in the RAW about how your size affects what you can jump or what is an obstacle for you?
Seems like an obstruction < or = to your base-size in length, or < or = to 1/4 your base-size in height ought not be considered an obstruction, and thus, ought not prevent a charge. Anything bigger requires enough effort prevent a charge [TOTAL house rule idea, not supported in the RAW in any way]
How would creature size factor in?
It doesn't, and that (to me) is a far more important argument.
Why does a Gargantuan Godzilla only get the same 5' step a Diminutive creature gets?
Why is an obstacle (like a table and chairs) an obstacle to Godzilla who could surely just step on it/over like it wasn't there.
Why does Gargantuan King Kong having his Diminutive ally Tinkerbell in the way get stopped from charging at Godzilla?
It doesn't say 'Swimming creatures can avoid some obstacles', so I don't see how your argument applies to swim, but not jump. It's either A or B, not A when I want A, and B when I want B.There is no movement speed for jumping - that's the point I'm driving at.Bestiary III has a creature with a jumping speed.
Speed: A jiang-shi moves only by hopping. This mode of movement is somewhat less swift than regular movement, and thus a jiang-shi's base speed is reduced by 10 feet from the base creature's speed, to a minimum of 10 feet. This unusual mode of movement allows the jiang-shi to ignore the effects of difficult terrain on movement, and makes it impossible to trip. Other speeds (like fly or swim speeds) are not affected by this reduction.
That is not a jumping speed, even if it moves by hopping.
Speed 30 ft.
Not a rule-->What I am going to do is allow the jumping. For the duelist I will add that it can charge through friendly squares without needing the dragonstyle feat.
Fine, tiny, and diminutive creatures don't take up a whole square and several can share one. It also says you can pass through it but would trigger an attack of opportunity. It also states that a creature 3 size categories larger can pass through the square of the smaller creature. The rules are written and intended for medium and small creatures. I would allow charges through occupied squares as per above. I understand the intent. We're playing a table top rpg with unlimited possibilities. Life is too short to treat it as a video game or strict legal document.
The combat section also vaguely states that larger creatures when helpless may also become obstacles. I'm guessing this is vague to allow GM discretion.
Under obstacles it states that they can hamper movement, that's different than saying they do hamper movement.
RAW that pit is not really there so the charge should work without even jumping. What happens by RAI is up to the GM.
The question really boils down to how much should we have to rely on common sense to interpret rules, and how much should we follow the book, even when it does not make sense.
That give the plays metagame knowledge though, and a way to autodetect illusions.
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Yar.
...but, that's RAW. </snark>
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
(silly rules being silly)
~P