While on a horse and charging, can your movement include jumping over a 10' pit?


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thanks,


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No. If there is anything that would hinder or slow movement, such as an obstacle using your current movement type you can not charge. The fact that you could jump it if you were allowed to do so does not stop it from being an obstacle.

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Hm, I was going to check the wording to see if that might work, but then I got to this line:

PRD wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

Poo.

Totally gonna get houseruled if I run a home game.


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wraithstrike wrote:

No. If there is anything that would hinder or slow movement, such as an obstacle using your current movement type you can not charge. The fact that you could jump it if you were allowed to do so does not stop it from being an obstacle.

James Jacob answered another thread on April 2010 (sorry cannot remember how to paste link)that stated jumping during charge is OK. The only reason to do so would be to negate an obstacle. So James' answer implies a jump removes obstacle from hindering movement.


Jiggy wrote:

Hm, I was going to check the wording to see if that might work, but then I got to this line:

PRD wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

Poo.

Totally gonna get houseruled if I run a home game.

Why is that poo? jumping over something doesn't block or slow movement.


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I've seen this ruled both ways. Personally I allow it, as jumping is part of normal movement. If you jump over it, it doesn't affect your movement rate any more than a creature with fly passing through the same square.

I think this comes down to applying the Rule of Cool. You can't charge over that pit--boring. You'll have to make a heroic leap to clear the gorge and attack--cinematic.


Krak de Chevalier wrote:
James Jacob answered another thread on April 2010 (sorry cannot remember how to paste link)that stated jumping during charge is OK. The only reason to do so would be to negate an obstacle. So James' answer implies a jump removes obstacle from hindering movement.

Found.

James Jacobs wrote:
Nothing's changed here, really. Jumping is a part of movement. If you're charging and part of that charge needs to be a jump, that's fine. You'll just need to make the appropriate Acrobatics DC to make the jump; if you fail the jump, obviously your charge is wasted.


Krak de Chevalier wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

No. If there is anything that would hinder or slow movement, such as an obstacle using your current movement type you can not charge. The fact that you could jump it if you were allowed to do so does not stop it from being an obstacle.

James Jacob answered another thread on April 2010 (sorry cannot remember how to paste link)that stated jumping during charge is OK. The only reason to do so would be to negate an obstacle. So James' answer implies a jump removes obstacle from hindering movement.

James is disagreeing with what the book says, James saying something is ok is not the same as him saying that is how he thinks the rule works. If anyone can use acrobatics to complete a charge then what is the point of:

Quote:
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

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wraithstrike wrote:

If anyone can use acrobatics to complete a charge then what is the point of:

Quote:
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

If anyone can jump over an obstacle during a charge, then what's the point of an ability that lets you charge through difficult terrain?

Are you serious?

EDIT: For that matter, the ability even says she may STILL need to make appropriate checks - so the ability is spelling out that it does not remove the need to make checks as appropriate, thus implying that a normal charge might sometimes involve checks.


wraithstrike wrote:
Krak de Chevalier wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

No. If there is anything that would hinder or slow movement, such as an obstacle using your current movement type you can not charge. The fact that you could jump it if you were allowed to do so does not stop it from being an obstacle.

James Jacob answered another thread on April 2010 (sorry cannot remember how to paste link)that stated jumping during charge is OK. The only reason to do so would be to negate an obstacle. So James' answer implies a jump removes obstacle from hindering movement.

James is disagreeing with what the book says, James saying something is ok is not the same as him saying that is how he thinks the rule works. If anyone can use acrobatics to complete a charge then what is the point of:

Quote:
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

A 10 foot hole and difficult terrain are 2 different things, that's why.

A duelist with acrobatic charge can charge through things like Sleet Storm, or up stairs, or over a wall(since it physically blocks your charge), whereas jumping over a hole IS part of your movement.


Wraithstrike is correct. You cannot jump over obstacles on a charge, whether they are pits in the ground or difficult terrain.


Quote:
Obstacles: Like difficult terrain, obstacles can hamper movement. If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle, in addition to the cost to move into the square on the other side. If you don't have sufficient movement to cross the obstacle and move into the square on the other side, you can't cross it. Some obstacles may also require a skill check to cross.
Quote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

It says if the line drawn between your starting space and your ending space contains a square that slows movement you can't charge.

We know.
1. There is a pit which is an obstacle.
2. We know obstacles take up 2 squares for the purposes of movement, reducing your movement in the round. That is slowing you down.
3. We know this pit is in the line that goes from point A to point B.
4. We know that if any square this line passes though contains something that could slow you down you can't charge so even if you could jump the pit, the fact that it counts as two squares and slows you down means you can't charge.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The duelist has two things stated in that ability:
1. Charge through difficult terrain-no check required and is the exception to the rule on charge.
2. May need to 'still' make appropriate checks to move over rough terrain- the English teacher in me says that this phrase calls to another already known piece of information so since the only skill this would normally refer to is acrobatics it implies everyone can do so on a charge.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Except jumping doesn't slow movement ergo your assertion is false.


wraithstrike wrote:

We know.

1. There is a pit which is an obstacle.
2. We know obstacles take up 2 squares for the purposes of movement, reducing your movement in the round. That is slowing you down.
3. We know this pit is in the line that goes from point A to point B.
4. We know that if any square this line passes though contains something that could slow you down you can't charge so even if you could jump the pit, the fact that it counts as two squares and slows you down means you can't charge.

So by this reasoning a flying creature is also blocked by the pit.


I think "still make appropriate checks" is more referring to making checks to do anything, regardless of charging.

To jump a pit, you roll a check. That happens. I think that's what "still" refers to.

My group uses action points, so I think burning one for a cinematic skillcheck to charge by jumping a pit would be legit. I do not think you can jump it as part of a charge regularly.

I understand that there is the Cool factor you're losing out on with that ruling, but you can still jump a pit and attack, there's nothing saying you can't. Except maybe a bad roll on the Acrobatics, that would say you can't.


wraithstrike wrote:
Quote:
Obstacles: Like difficult terrain, obstacles can hamper movement. If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle, in addition to the cost to move into the square on the other side. If you don't have sufficient movement to cross the obstacle and move into the square on the other side, you can't cross it. Some obstacles may also require a skill check to cross.
Quote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

It says if the line drawn between your starting space and your ending space contains a square that slows movement you can't charge.

We know.
1. There is a pit which is an obstacle.
2. We know obstacles take up 2 squares for the purposes of movement, reducing your movement in the round. That is slowing you down.
3. We know this pit is in the line that goes from point A to point B.
4. We know that if any square this line passes though contains something that could slow you down you can't charge so even if you could jump the pit, the fact that it counts as two squares and slows you down means you can't charge.

A pit you can jump is not an obstacle, by the common definition of what "obstacle" means.


Cheapy wrote:
Wraithstrike is correct. You cannot jump over obstacles on a charge, whether they are pits in the ground or difficult terrain.

That presupposes a jumpable-pit is per rule an obstacle. That has not been entered into evidence.


Some call me Tim wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

We know.

1. There is a pit which is an obstacle.
2. We know obstacles take up 2 squares for the purposes of movement, reducing your movement in the round. That is slowing you down.
3. We know this pit is in the line that goes from point A to point B.
4. We know that if any square this line passes though contains something that could slow you down you can't charge so even if you could jump the pit, the fact that it counts as two squares and slows you down means you can't charge.
So by this reasoning a flying creature is also blocked by the pit.
Quote:
Flying and incorporeal creatures are able to avoid most obstacles.

In my earlier post I did mention movement type as factor.


Quote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

It does not say if you can make a jump check to overcome _____ you can get by. Now maybe they assumed common sense would kick in, but adding an "unless..." would not have hurt anything.


So a solution to jumping over the pit would be to have the mount have the Dragon Style feat?


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wraithstrike wrote:
It does not say if you can make a jump check to overcome _____ you can get by. Now maybe they assumed common sense would kick in, but adding an "unless..." would not have hurt anything.

Well, actually the core rulebook would swell to 15,000 pages as explicit exceptions are written for every rule in the book.

Besides then what would have to argue about?

Eventually at some point the DM has to make the decision. Even if they are wrong-headed half the time. ;-)


I don't think using a skill check to overwrite an otherwise absolute statement is that much to ask. I do agree with you in theory though. :)

Dragonstyle does not work. A pit is an obstacle, not difficult terrain.


wraithstrike wrote:
Quote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
It does not say if you can make a jump check to overcome _____ you can get by. Now maybe they assumed common sense would kick in, but adding an "unless..." would not have hurt anything.

I think the common definition of the word "blocks" suffices. If you can jump over a span, it's not blocking you from moving.

Dark Archive

I disagree with wraithstrike. It's not an obstacle to your movement if you're able to get over it without trouble. Jumping doesn't slow you down, as has been mentioned above, and you can jump as part of a charge, as shown by the feat Janni Rush from Ultimate Combat.


Unless you would've failed the jump check, in which case it did block your movement. In which case you couldn't have charged to begin with.

Schroedinger's Charging, right there.


Cheapy wrote:

Unless you would've failed the jump check, in which case it did block your movement. In which case you couldn't have charged to begin with.

Schroedinger's Charging, right there.

So what does that have to do with can you or can't you. There are innumerable things that could happen during a charge that could prevent you. Someone takes an AoO and trips you as you charge past. Someone uses a readied action to cast hold person. What if the pit is hidden?

In all those cases you simply get screwed out of completing your action. I don't see this as any different.


If you have to jump I would say it is blocking your path. If it were not an obstacle to be overcome you would not have to jump. Overcoming something does not mean it is not an obstacle. The fact that you had to put effort into bypassing something pretty much defines it as an obstacle.

Hurdlers jump hurdles. I doubt that they would tell you they are not obstacles.

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Cheapy wrote:

Unless you would've failed the jump check, in which case it did block your movement. In which case you couldn't have charged to begin with.

Schroedinger's Charging, right there.

Schroedinger was involved in a lot of the combat rules.


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Mergy wrote:
I disagree with wraithstrike.

This right here is crazy talk. :)

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Sadly, James Jacobs' post was flagged for FAQing but got the "No Response Required" treatment.


I hate it when that happens. Even when a thread has a lot of FAQ's it still happens at times.

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Ultimately, I think it is sort of a Schroedinger topic. If you're sufficiently airborn, it's not an obstacle/doesn't hamper movement/the line you draw is A-Okay. If you're not, it is. But you don't get to find out until you're already charging.

I think it's up for interpretation.


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I'd certainly let people jump over a pit as part of a charge. Give fighters a reason to take Acrobatics, give rogues another advantage, etc., etc. And Rule of Cool.

Just watch out for enemies that ready to cast a Wall of Force if you try to jump over the lava moat.


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Personally, I don't consider a horizontal jump over a pit to be an obstacle, provided you can make the check. If you fail the check, than your action is stopped in progress as if you got tripped, or encountered some other interruption. If it was a wall, it would be different, as you have to go up in order to go over, but jumping a pit doesn't have that major of a upward component, requiring just enough to stay even with the ground on either side, relying mostly on forward momentum to get you across the span.


An obstacle is not an obstacle based on whether or not it stops progress. It is an obstacle because it can stop your progress.

Even if I jump over a low wall it is still an obstacle.

Quote:

Measuring Distance

As a general rule, distance is measured assuming that 1 square equals 5 feet.

Diagonals: When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.

You can't move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent.

You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits.

The game defines pits as an obstacle. Nowhere in the book are there rules that say an obstacle is not an obstacle if you can bypass it.


wraithstrike wrote:

The game defines pits as an obstacle. Nowhere in the book are there rules that say an obstacle is not an obstacle if you can bypass it.

The book doesn't have to say it, the very definition of obstacle is something that you can't bypass. If you can bypass it, it's no longer an obstacle. While a pit is a genuine obstacle most of the time, a charging horse even semi competently trained is not going to find a 10' gap in the ground in the middle its path a problem the vast majority of the time. There may be a small chance of failure, but no more than taking your chances charging right by the guy with the big sword waiting to chop you down before you get to your target.

Liberty's Edge

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wraithstrike wrote:
An obstacle is not an obstacle based on whether or not it stops progress. It is an obstacle because it can stop your progress.

And nowhere does it say that an obstacle is what blocks a charge (a bit of semantics here, but important ones in this case.)

Here's the relevant text I see from the charge section:

prd wrote:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).

It does not say that obstacles block your charge, it says that things that hinder your movement block your charge and gives obstacles as an example. In this case, your jump did not reduce, slow nor hinder your movement in any way, which means that it did not block the charge.

The next relevant text is similar:

prd wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

If you make the movement action, was your movement slowed or blocked? No? Then it can be a charge (assuming you didn't go through a creature's space).

It's really quite simple. Draw the straight line path and move the character. If at any point they must spend more movement than normal to move a square, then their movement was hindered and they cannot charge. If at any point they pass through a creature's space, they cannot charge.

If you do this over a pit, you notice that your movement was never slowed. You never spent more squares than normal going from one square to the next. So therefor, assuming you didn't pass through a creature's space, the movement would be valid for a charge.

Note: When you long-jump I believe it is assumed that you also go up by a number of feet equal to the normal DC (you had a running charge) result you needed divided by 4. This means if you needed a result of 20 or higher (a 20ft jump), you definitely broke the straight-line rule and broke your charge. If your jump was 10 feet, you should be fine. If it was 5 feet, you're *definitely* fine. If it was 15... well, that's a little iffy. How high must you be before you're in the next square up?


wraithstrike wrote:
No. If there is anything that would hinder or slow movement, such as an obstacle using your current movement type you can not charge. The fact that you could jump it if you were allowed to do so does not stop it from being an obstacle.

The existence of the Duelist's Acrobatic Charge indicates to me that wraithstrike's quotations summarize the restrictive rules regarding charge and that is how I'd rule it.

While it may be "cool" to allow every character jump and charge, you're effectively removing the usefulness of another classes' power.


sunshadow21 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The game defines pits as an obstacle. Nowhere in the book are there rules that say an obstacle is not an obstacle if you can bypass it.

The book doesn't have to say it, the very definition of obstacle is something that you can't bypass. If you can bypass it, it's no longer an obstacle. While a pit is a genuine obstacle most of the time, a charging horse even semi competently trained is not going to find a 10' gap in the ground in the middle its path a problem the vast majority of the time. There may be a small chance of failure, but no more than taking your chances charging right by the guy with the big sword waiting to chop you down before you get to your target.
dictionary.reference.com wrote:


something that obstructs or hinders progress.

Hindering is not the same as can not be overcome.

Merriam-webster:something that obstructs or hinders progress.
example from Merriam-webster: She swerved to avoid an obstacle in the road.

Two sources same definition so an obstacle still remains an obstacle even if it is overcome.

edit:clarification


StabbittyDoom wrote:


The next relevant text is similar:

prd wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
If you make the movement action, was your movement slowed or blocked? No? Then it can be a charge (assuming you didn't go through a creature's space).

The text is telling you what happens with relation to a charge. It is not asking if you can bypass it with a jump check or by any other means. We all know that a pit would block movement for land based creatures. We know that the line is passing through that square. Even if you jump you are still passing through a square that meets the criteria for stopping a charge. That is why it does not work. I am not saying it makes sense. That is just what he book says.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:


The next relevant text is similar:

prd wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
If you make the movement action, was your movement slowed or blocked? No? Then it can be a charge (assuming you didn't go through a creature's space).

The text is telling you what happens with relation to a charge. It is not asking if you can bypass it with a jump check or by any other means. We all know that a pit would block movement for land based creatures. We know that the line is passing through that square. Even if you jump you are still passing through a square that meets the criteria for stopping a charge. That is why it does not work. I am not saying it makes sense. That is just what he book says.

No, this is NOT what the book says. It does not say "if a land-locked creature would be slowed." It says if YOU would be slowed. Were you slowed by the jump? No? Charge valid.

The book may not say "you can make checks to overcome", but it does not say that you cannot. The only assertion it makes is "are you slowed?"

EDIT: Also, as a ding against a previous post of yours, charge does not say that obstacles block charge. It says that anything that hinders movement blocks charge, and gives obstacles as a possible example. This means that, from the perspective of charge, something that does not slow you is irrelevant (other than creatures), whether normally an obstacle or not. This is good, because otherwise things like Nimble Moves would be a lot less useful as well.

Dark Archive

By RAW you can jump as part of a charge. I could jump for my entire charge if my Acrobatics roll us high enough. It only hinders your movement if it, you know, actually hinders it.


Mergy wrote:
By RAW you can jump as part of a charge. I could jump for my entire charge if my Acrobatics roll us high enough. It only hinders your movement if it, you know, actually hinders it.

The problem is, you can't start a charge if your line of the charge is obstructed in any way.


Stynkk wrote:
The existence of the Duelist's Acrobatic Charge indicates to me that wraithstrike's quotations summarize the restrictive rules regarding charge and that is how I'd rule it.

Specifically Acrobatic Charge deals with difficult terrain and not obstacles, but I digress.

"Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain."

In any case nowhere does it say this is the result of a jump or that the duelist must make an acrobatics check that exceeds the distance of the difficult terrain.

This would give the ability for a duelist to charge across an icy lake, heavy undergrowth, or similar circumstances with a much lower DC than trying to jump it. So, being able to jump over certain obstacles hardly eliminates the usefulness of the ability.


According to 3.5 which has the same wording as PF you can jump during a charge. This could be another case of RAW not matching RAI.

The lines where it says "if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge." should stop the charge, but assuming Skip(3.5 dev) is correct then what they mean is "if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks or slows your movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. You are also allowed to jump over difficult terrain and obstacles in order to avoid being slowed.

That takes away from the duelist and my impression of the statement. I read it is if you pass through a square that would normally ______ then you can't charge.

I know a lot of people that run it so that the jump is not allowed, and when questioned about it on James's post they(Paizo) declined to answer. I think it is bad writing to say you can't do something, especially when it comes to special actions, without writing out a special clause to say expect in these cases.....


The original question involved a horse. Just saying. Anyway...

StabbityDoom's bit about how jumping X amount of feet far is probably the most accurate way of handling this.

Because by the logic of "jump over something and continue charging," a maxed Acrobatics would let you hop all sorts of things, like walls or even other combatants. If my movement isn't hindered because of a skill check, then that's just as legit.

StabbityDoom considers how high you travel in a long jump, and based on movement rules, if a space would increase its cost for movement, then it's impossible. It's not a perfect setup, but it might work.


It depends on whether you read it as you can't if you can't bypass X or you can't charge if you are entering a square that would impede you otherwise.


What annoys me is that friendly players can also block a charge. I find it highly amusing that a Druid is in the form of a size Huge lion he might be blocked by his halfling buddy from running at someone else...


I do find it weird that Difficult Terrain (p193) states that you cannot Run or Charge across Difficult Terrain while Obstacles (p193) does not include that (or a very similiar) line.

Another difference (same pg), is that Difficult Terrain Hampers Movement, while an Obstacle CAN Hamper Movement. Which by its nature, would mean some Obstacles DO NOT Hamper Movement. Wouldn't it?

Add to that, when moving Diagonally, Pits don't hamper movement the way way a Pillar or Wall Corner would.

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