That should have occured in Beta (no idea if it did as I was not around).
It happened many times during the Alpha and Beta playetests.
The developers' reply was always "Backwards Compatibility!" (which I always hear in my head as the villain from Lethal Weapon II saying "Diplomatic Immunity!").
I am a bit confused about the goals of this thread. It is in the house rules section but seems to have a goal of getting the developers attention. That should have occured in Beta (no idea if it did as I was not around). This would be of help if PF 2.0 was coming out.
I personally think it is too late and perhaps people are being a bit too harsh. I feel Rogues have more problems than Monks. Monks got love in the UC, UM, and the APG. If they were going to add feats to help the monk, the time is passed. They are a playable class, although more of an advanced class. It isn't the end of the world for them.
I am sure that some sort of equipment may help them out in UE, but I am of the opinion that is also a bit too late. A lot of people don't play with every book and the further the book is in the life of a game, the less it is used. But I guess it will help some.
All this is with the caveat that the flurry of blows retcon never comes to in. I have no idea why they opened that can of worms. If they want FoB to act like TWF they should have done so themselves with thier own products. If should be officially errata'ed back the the 3.5 wording and tackle that issue in PF 2.0.
As bad as the situation with current Flurry of Blows is, it's still a million times better than 3.5 Flurry of blows. After all, our biggest problem with both versions of Flurry of Blows is that you can't hit anything. And 3.5 Flurry of blows is a minimum of -5 less To-Hit across 20 levels compared to current Flurry of Blows, due to the lack of increase to BAB while flurrying! Meanwhile, modern Flurry of Blows is still at least +3 greater to hit than the 3.5 version across twenty levels and has a lot more potential attacks you can drop. :(
I am toying with the idea that the simplest way for the monk to thrive is to allow that class to buy feats with cash.
Quote:Dojo Training (General Feat)
A monk devotes himself to constantly training himself to new martial disciplines.
Prerequisites: Monk 1st level.
Benefit: The character's Base Attack Bonus for qualifying for feats equals his monk level plus his base attack bonuses granted from other classes. In addition, the character may purchase a week's training at a dojo or monastery and learn new feats as listed below. The character can learn only one feat per week of training and must meet all the prerequisites for the feat. The monk may buy as many feats as he has time and money to train, but he cannot buy the same feat twice unless the feat specifically allows that.A first-level or higher monk may pay 2000 gp to learn Combat Expertise, an Improved combat maneuver feat, a Style feat, or any first-level monk bonus feat.
A third-level or higher monk may pay 8000 gp to learn a Greater combat manuever feat or a feat in a Style feat's path of feats.
A sixth-level or higher monk may pay 18,000 gp to learn a feat that requires an Improved combat manuever feat as a prerequisite, or any sixth-level monk bonus feat.
A tenth-evel or higher monk may pay 32,000 gp to learn a feat that requires Dex 11 or higher as a prerequisite or any tenth-level monk bonus feat.
This is a rough draft of the Dojo Training feat. I have not checked that the prices and the feat lists are right.
I do really like this idea. But the prerequisites might need to be higher. Otherwise, a lot of Fighters might dip a level in monk to get the 1st level benefits you listed. There should be a limit to the number of feats you can pick up this way as well, just because of the risk that a DM with a slow game ends up with a Monk that has 40 feats by level 20. Then again...it otherwise singlehandedly fixes a LOT of monk problems by making feats more accessible, and thus potentially allowing a Monk to feat their way out of problems. It also fits with the concept of a wandering martial artist.
I confess I'm not that thrilled with the Dojo Training idea. Basically you are talking about having a dojo to train in - what if there isn't one? I prefer the Enhanced Ki Strike feat for something that can give the monk a slight power-up in chances to hit, which is where they lose out the most.
I would change the feat slightly to fit the wording of many other Monk special feats.
Martial Training
You seek out a monastery, dojo, or other school to acquire fighting skills.
Benefit: Characters can pay to undertake training in a martial arts school and learn additional Combat Feats. A character can learn an additional combat feat for every four levels they have. Each feat takes one week to learn, multiplied by the amount of feat learned through this method. For example, if a character had learned 3 feats through this method, and wished to learn a fourth, it would take 4 weeks to learn that new feat.
The cost of training for a feat increases at an exponential rate (the first feat costs 2,000 gp, the second costs 8,000 gp, the third costs, 18,000 gp and so on). The character must meet all prerequisites for the feat in order to learn it.
Special: A monk may learn a number of additional feats equal to their monk level plus one for every four levels they have other than monk.
[Edit] I should mention, there is a part of me that doesn't really like this idea as it reminds me too much of playing video games like Elder Scrolls.
I ******* HATED having to find the 'Masters' to finish training my character in the skills that took forever to level up.
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I think there's still a place for the monk, but this is very true. Honestly, I think the only reason we don't see more unarmed fighters (or barbarians) is 1d3 damage is just a pain to roll. No it's not that hard, but it's nice to just read the damage die for what it is instead of go "6! No, wait, that's 3." If we had a feat like in d20 modern, which increases the unarmed damage die to 1d4, I bet we'd see more unarmed fighters taking the stage, and more people who play monks would focus more on its skillmonkey and defense aspects. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I defintely agree-- I will not wield a dagger when I play as a halfling or gnome simply because I refuse to roll a d3 for damage.
But think about it-- how many of the monk's "class abilities" are actually feats? Why is Stunning Fist even a feat? Who other than a monk is taking it? Flurry of Blows is basically the same as TWF, and Abundant Step and Slow Fall are basically more limited versions of spells. Even the ki pool bears a strong resemblance to a paladin or ranger's spellcasting. It's surprisingly easy to build a monk out of non-monk classes through feats-- all they really have to themselves is the Wisdom bonus to AC.
So here's my proposition-- retool Improved Unarmed Strike so that it increases your damage dice to 1d6 and includes the monk's "no such thing as an off-hand" rider. Remove the "one fourth the viability" clause on Stunning Fist and Perfect Strike so that they become viable choices for non-monks. Then introduce a "Greater Unarmed Strike" that further bumps it up to 1d10. Suddenly, your bare fists becomes a legitimate choice for fighters, barbarians, rangers, etc. Then we no longer need the mess of a statblock that the monk has become, and people who want to play as Blackbelt Jackson can still do so, and in fact have their choice of classes to do it with.
I think there's still a place for the monk, but this is very true. Honestly, I think the only reason we don't see more unarmed fighters (or barbarians) is 1d3 damage is just a pain to roll. No it's not that hard, but it's nice to just read the damage die for what it is instead of go "6! No, wait, that's 3." If we had a feat like in d20 modern, which increases the unarmed damage die to 1d4, I bet we'd see more unarmed fighters taking the stage, and more people who play monks would focus more on its skillmonkey and defense aspects. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.I defintely agree-- I will not wield a dagger when I play as a halfling or gnome simply because I refuse to roll a d3 for damage.
But think about it-- how many of the monk's "class abilities" are actually feats? Why is Stunning Fist even a feat? Who other than a monk is taking it? Flurry of Blows is basically the same as TWF, and Abundant Step and Slow Fall are basically more limited versions of spells. Even the ki pool bears a strong resemblance to a paladin or ranger's spellcasting. It's surprisingly easy to build a monk out of non-monk classes through feats-- all they really have to themselves is the Wisdom bonus to AC.
So here's my proposition-- retool Improved Unarmed Strike so that it increases your damage dice to 1d6 and includes the monk's "no such thing as an off-hand" rider. Remove the "one fourth the viability" clause on Stunning Fist and Perfect Strike so that they become viable choices for non-monks. Then introduce a "Greater Unarmed Strike" that further bumps it up to 1d10. Suddenly, your bare fists becomes a legitimate choice for fighters, barbarians, rangers, etc. Then we no longer need the mess of a statblock that the monk has become, and people who want to play as Blackbelt Jackson can still do so, and in fact have their choice of classes to do it with.
Monk represents a solid class archetype that Fighter, Barbarian, and the other classes cannot encompass. Be it a Warrior-Priest or an Eastern Kung-Fu legend, there are aspects that could be included in the Monk Class that cannot be included in the others. I do understand what you're saying SilentSaturn, but I think that the bits and pieces needed for an effective Monk DO exist. All it needs is the gap to be bridged between what it is now and what it could be.
I don't want to give up on my favorite class. :D
I confess I'm not that thrilled with the Dojo Training idea. Basically you are talking about having a dojo to train in - what if there isn't one? I prefer the Enhanced Ki Strike feat for something that can give the monk a slight power-up in chances to hit, which is where they lose out the most.
Give me another week and I will polish up the details and post it to its own thread in the Suggestions/House Rule/Homebrew forum.
The "What if there isn't a dojo?" question reminds me of given similar questions that people stopped asking. What if there isn't a magic shop that sells enchanted armor for the fighter? What if no wizard within a thousand miles makes Amulets of Mighty Fists? Despite some GMs running low magic campaigns out there, the default is that the characters will buy the magic items they want. Which is more unbelievable in a large fantasy city: a dojo run by a small order of monks or a magic shop that has a 75% chance of having exactly the +3 icy glaive that your fighter was looking for?
The buying of magic items inspired Dojo Training. If some new idea let the monk operate without magic items, say by Dabble's Ki Strike feats, then some GMs would complain about the monk having lots of spare gold that most classes spend on armor and weapons and the monk used to spend on Amulet of Might Fists. They would ban the feats that let the monk avoid buying the Amulet of Mighty Fists. The pre-emptive solution is to force the monk to spend the gold, but not on magic items. Hence, spending the gold on training.
I confess I'm not that thrilled with the Dojo Training idea. Basically you are talking about having a dojo to train in - what if there isn't one? I prefer the Enhanced Ki Strike feat for something that can give the monk a slight power-up in chances to hit, which is where they lose out the most.Give me another week and I will polish up the details and post it to its own thread in the Suggestions/House Rule/Homebrew forum.
The "What if there isn't a dojo?" question reminds me of given similar questions that people stopped asking. What if there isn't a magic shop that sells enchanted armor for the fighter? What if no wizard within a thousand miles makes Amulets of Mighty Fists? Despite some GMs running low magic campaigns out there, the default is that the characters will buy the magic items they want. Which is more unbelievable in a large fantasy city: a dojo run by a small order of monks or a magic shop that has a 75% chance of having exactly the +3 icy glaive that your fighter was looking for?
The buying of magic items inspired Dojo Training. If some new idea let the monk operate without magic items, say by Dabble's Ki Strike feats, then some GMs would complain about the monk having lots of spare gold that most classes spend on armor and weapons and the monk used to spend on Amulet of Might Fists. They would ban the feats that let the monk avoid buying the Amulet of Mighty Fists. The pre-emptive solution is to force the monk to spend the gold, but not on magic items. Hence, spending the gold on training.
What'd you think of my proposed alternative?
What'd you think of my proposed alternative?
As you and ReconstructorFleet pointed out, the Dojo Training/Martial Training feat needs to apply to all classes, but be better for monks, and also have a limit on how many extra feats it will give a character.
I will have to crunch the numbers to see how well a particular progression of costs fits character advancement before I can reach any conclusions. I haven't even done the calculations for my version.
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Monk represents a solid class archetype that Fighter, Barbarian, and the other classes cannot encompass. Be it a Warrior-Priest or an Eastern Kung-Fu legend, there are aspects that could be included in the Monk Class that cannot be included in the others. I do understand what you're saying SilentSaturn, but I think that the bits and pieces needed for an effective Monk DO exist. All it needs is the gap to be bridged between what it is now and what it could be.
I don't want to give up on my favorite class. :D
Kerobelis asked about the goals of this discussion. I think the goal is to explain why the monk is a solid class archetype. The easiest way to do that is to propose a fix to the monk so that others can see how the monk is supposed to work. As for me, I like to dig down into theory.
Paizo has invented some ingeneous classes in the last few years. They wanted a fighter-wizard base class, so they built it around the concept of touch spells. They turned the disadvantage of those spells, that wizards have to stand adjacent to their targets like fighters, into the identifying theme of the magus. Likewise, they mixed potions and ranged splash attacks into the alchemist class. The summoner is a wizard who specialized in summoning so much that he stopped being a wizard. The oracle is the mystic who has one foot on another world, both losing and gaining abilities because of that.
On a tapestry like that, we can paint a monk who is not a fighter.
Obviously, we start with unarmed strike. It is a weird rule, as weird as ranged splash attacks and summoning. What can we do with unarmed strike to create a unique class? We could reject the weird side of unarmed strike and invent an unarmed fighter who uses his fists as weapons. But that is not unique; that is only a fighter archetype. Instead, we want to embrace the strangeness of unarmed strike. This class hits with hands and feet and elbows and head butts and random objects grabbed from floor and tables. Inspired by real martial arts, we also point out that the monk spins and leaps and dodges and trips and throws. Some monks wrestle. This class will have mobility and multiple attacks and combat maneuvers. It can be Dexterity incarnate, like the rogue, but unlike the skulking, sneaking rogue, the monk can leap into the air in glory.
This is its own class.
Alas, the existing monk was based on the D&D 3.5 monk, who was based on the D&D 3.0 monk, who was based on even earlier monks. The legacy of earlier monks, of backwards compatibility, and of ideas cast in an old mold, forced the monk into traditional abilities, denying its potential to be unique. The D&D 3.0 monk probably should have resembled the Pathfinder Maneuver Master archetype, with more emphasis on combat maneuvers, but only Pathfinder unified the combat maneuver rules enough to make the Maneuver Master possible.
Monk represents a solid class archetype that Fighter, Barbarian, and the other classes cannot encompass. Be it a Warrior-Priest or an Eastern Kung-Fu legend, there are aspects that could be included in the Monk Class that cannot be included in the others. I do understand what you're saying SilentSaturn, but I think that the bits and pieces needed for an effective Monk DO exist. All it needs is the gap to be bridged between what it is now and what it could be.
I don't want to give up on my favorite class. :D
Kerobelis asked about the goals of this discussion. I think the goal is to explain why the monk is a solid class archetype. The easiest way to do that is to propose a fix to the monk so that others can see how the monk is supposed to work. As for me, I like to dig down into theory.
Paizo has invented some ingeneous classes in the last few years. They wanted a fighter-wizard base class, so they built it around the concept of touch spells. They turned the disadvantage of those spells, that wizards have to stand adjacent to their targets like fighters, into the identifying theme of the magus. Likewise, they mixed potions and ranged splash attacks into the alchemist class. The summoner is a wizard who specialized in summoning so much that he stopped being a wizard. The oracle is the mystic who has one foot on another world, both losing and gaining abilities because of that.
On a tapestry like that, we can paint a monk who is not a fighter.
Obviously, we start with unarmed strike. It is a weird rule, as weird as ranged splash attacks and summoning. What can we do with unarmed strike to create a unique class? We could reject the weird side of unarmed strike and invent an unarmed fighter who uses his fists as weapons. But that is not unique; that is only a fighter archetype. Instead, we want to embrace the strangeness of unarmed strike. This class hits with hands and feet and elbows and head butts and random objects grabbed from floor and tables. Inspired by real...
I've mentioned elsewhere, but Maneuver Master is a class I SHOULD love. It makes Monk a massive threat zone for controlling effects via Combat Maneuvers. If only they didn't replace normal Flurry of Blows with "Flurry of Maneuvers". Argh. If it had regular Pathfinder Flurry of Blows to go with everything else in it, it'd be my favorite monk variant of all time.
Give me another week and I will polish up the details and post it to its own thread in the Suggestions/House Rule/Homebrew forum.
I have a few ideas myself I'm going to pen up as well.
What'd you think of my proposed alternative?
From my point of view, it suffers the same problem as the original.
Give me another week and I will polish up the details and post it to its own thread in the Suggestions/House Rule/Homebrew forum.I have a few ideas myself I'm going to pen up as well.
What'd you think of my proposed alternative?From my point of view, it suffers the same problem as the original.
Well, the intent behind my alternative is that characters who take the feat, are capable of learning other feats quickly by seeking a teacher. They can practice and develop feats on their own (as represented by gaining them every odd level), but for those who need a feat and soon, they can pay to have someone teach it to them, if they are in a sufficiently sized town. Finding someone to teach a feat should be up to the GM's decision, but some cities, like Absolam, should have any teacher available.
But what if we were to mix the Martial Training feat with the Enhanced Ki power I proposed earlier?
Enhanced Ki only applies to a Monks unarmed strikes, not to any special monk weapons, natural attacks, or other weapons he is proficient in unless they have the Ki Focus property. Temporary enhancements to wisdom (such as through the spell Owl's Wisdom) do not increase the maximum enhancement a Monk may have.
I think that if one were to combine the two, several of the more glaring problems with the Monk would disappear, though some, like the incompatibility of Flurry and Movement would stick around. Though if Monks were able to take a feat, or gain an ability similar to the Dervish Dancer Bard's Dance of Fury, then things would be even better.
1 & 6. The highly mobile multiple attacks of the fictional monk tripped like a dancer with two left feet over the D&D/Pathfinder rule that multiple attacks require a full-round action: Flurry of Blows and mobility don't work together.
I think this is the second biggest problem the monk class faces as a supposedly martial character class. A big step towards helping the monk would be finding a way to fix this.
My idea/s: (Re-written class features, forgive me for any confusion my wording may cause, I'm finding it difficult to write my intent clearly)
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk can choose to use a single weapon to perform all attacks as desired. A monk cannot perform a flurry of blows and gain the benefits of two-weapon fighting or similar abilities at the same time. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
My hope with these modified class features was to help make the monk live up to the idea that they're supposed to be mobile strikers.
Allowing Flurry of Blows to work in a limited fashion on a standard attack action makes it that much more useful. It lets you use it in a few new circumstances, including Charges and Spring Attacks, or just to give a quick peppering to a ranged opponent with Shuriken as you close distance. You can even use the Ki Pool's ability to tack on a third attack at full BAB to really show the lethality of a monk on the move. Other wording was to separate FoB from TWF, and no attack roll penalty (a side-effect of my wording was I had to make it completely multiclass unfriendly, but I'm sure somebody could re-word it better). The way I have it a monk should be using their FoB to make every attack that isn't an AoO.
As for the change to Fast Movement, I'm not sure if what I changed would be considered overpowered or not. It will certainly help define the monk as very mobile being able to take a 10 foot, a 15 foot, and eventually a 20 foot step as free action. Even when they have to "stand still" to get a full-attack action off on their opponent/s the monk would remain far more mobile than normal characters in the same situation.
2. The monk's unarmed strike scaled with level on damage, but not on success rate of hitting nor ability to avoid damage reduction nor enchantment enhancements, so it worked terribly at high levels.
2 & 3. All character classes depend on magic items to thrive at high level, but the monk was denied the armor slot (and the weapons slot if fighting unarmed) and had to function under-enchanted.
My change to FoB above would help slightly, but yes I think it could use an extra boost.
At 4th level, ki strike grants a +1 enhancement bonus to the monk's unarmed strike attack and damage rolls, and they are treated as magical for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
At 7th level, ki strike grants a +2 Enhancement bonus to the monk's unarmed strike attack and damage rolls, and they are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 10th level ki strike grants a +3 Enhancement bonus to the monk's unarmed strike attack and damage rolls, and they are also treated as alchemical silver weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 13th level ki strike grants a +4 Enhancement bonus to the monk's unarmed strike attack and damage rolls, and they are also treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
At 16th level ki strike grants a +5 Enhancement bonus to the monk's unarmed strike attack and damage rolls, and they are also capable of overcoming DR based on alignment.
At 19th level ki strike grants a +6 Enhancement bonus to the monk's unarmed strike attack and damage rolls, and they are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A monk can spend points from their ki pool as a move action in order to add special weapon abilities to their unarmed strike. For every 2 ki points spent the monk can treat their unarmed strike as having a +1 Special ability (such as the Flaming or Bane property) for a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom Modifier. Alternatively the monk can spend more points to gain higher power special abilities. A monk could spend 4 ki points to gain a +2 special ability, 6 points for a +3 special ability, 8 points for a +4 special ability, or even 10 points for a +5 special ability. The only special abilities allowed to be granted via this ability are those that can be applied to bludgeoning melee weapons (although if a feat or spell allows the monk to treat their unarmed strike as a piercing or slashing weapon they can then use this ability to gain special abilities for that weapon type, such as vorpal for slashing weapons). This ability can never be used to grant the Dancing Weapon, the Throwing, or the Anarchic property. A monk can only spend up to double the enhancement bonus this ability grants in Ki points, meaning that a monk could not spend 8 ki points to gain the Brilliant Weapon property until they were of 13th level.
I'm honestly not so sure of the changes to Ki Strike (also notice it's separated from Ki Pool). The first half seems fine to me, but the ability costing ki points I think needs some kind of balancing. Still, I submit for your perusal in the hopes it can be made to work.
As for the actual point of the changes, the first half was what a lot of other people have already thought up. Grant the monk an enhancement bonus on their unarmed strikes so when they're unarmed they can still hit something and don't have to fork over a lot of gold for an overpriced amulet.
The second part was essentially a modded version of the Paladin's Divine Weapon Bond. Spend points from a limited resource pool to gain temporary special effects for unarmed strike. Rather ki point intensive, but it can give the monk a lot of flexibility in fights by letting them choose what kind of power they're bringing to the melee. It's also good incentive to have a monk to put more points in their Wis score for the extra duration and extra ki points.
Between the two parts of the above changes it should allow a Monk to fight on par with a Fighter, at least that was my hope. Tell me what you think of these, and feel free to take the ideas and improve upon them!
Some nice ideas here! I have started another thread for complete suggested monk redesigns, some of your ideas are similar to mine, Cel'Daran, would you mind posting them there as well, along with any comments on my design work?
For feats and the like I started this thread some time back for quick fixes.
One problem, I see, is people want the Monk to be equal to the fighter. He shouldn't. The fighter and barbarian should be the closest in attack and damage, with the paladin and range creeping in depending on their targets. I think the Monk should be most equal to a non-smiting paladin, or a non-favored enemy ranger. I didn't include the other bass classes as I'm more familiar with the core classes. I ranked the fighter and barbarian as a higher tier as their damage bonuses accrue regardless of who they are fighting, while the ranger and paladin have bonus damage that is enemy specific. A monk should be on par with a ranger or paladin when they are not fighting their special enemies.
@Cel'Daren: I'm going to modify your proposals a little to make them easier to use and fit the rules in a more conventional manner, or modify them to make them slightly better.
At 8th level, a monk make take a second additional attack at his highest BAB, but at a -5 penalty.
At 15th level, a monk may make a third additional attack at his highest BAB, but at a -10 penalty.
For the purposes of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. If a monk has levels in a class other than monk, add the base attack bonus granted from the class to the monk's modified base attack bonus.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
As for Ki Strike, the only suggestion I can really make is to treat the enhancements as equal to the effects of weapon enhancements (at +3 they overcome cold iron and silver, +4 adamantine, +5, alignment). The first two could keep their abilities as they're fine.
The other thing is the ability to add weapon properties is, I believe, not really worth hit. Most monks won't really have enough Ki to make use of it, not in between using 1 ki for an additional attack, or 1 ki for additional movement, etc. The Ki Pool is too limited a resource for them to be spending 2 ki per additional ability for roughly 3 rounds.
I've mentioned elsewhere, but Maneuver Master is a class I SHOULD love. It makes Monk a massive threat zone for controlling effects via Combat Maneuvers. If only they didn't replace normal Flurry of Blows with "Flurry of Maneuvers". Argh. If it had regular Pathfinder Flurry of Blows to go with everything else in it, it'd be my favorite monk variant of all time.
Paizo made a slight balance mistake on Maneuver Master. Typically, a combat maneuver serves the same role as Stunning Fist: disabling an opponent for a round or two. When they gave the Maneuver Master more combat maneuvers and fewer damaging attacks by substituting Flurry of Manuevers for Flurry of Blows, they left the Maneuver Master too devoted to disabling without enough emphasis on damaging.
Let's swap a damaging ability for Stunning Fist.
Maneuver Damage (Ex)
Whenever a Maneuver Master successfully uses a combat maneuver against an opponent, he may also deal damage to the opponent equal to his Wisdom bonus (minumum 1). This damage is not subject to damage prevention.This ability replaces Stunning Fist.
Why not stunning fist for flurry of blows instead? It's the thing that people have said they miss the most in this version of the monk.
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I've mentioned elsewhere, but Maneuver Master is a class I SHOULD love. It makes Monk a massive threat zone for controlling effects via Combat Maneuvers. If only they didn't replace normal Flurry of Blows with "Flurry of Maneuvers". Argh. If it had regular Pathfinder Flurry of Blows to go with everything else in it, it'd be my favorite monk variant of all time.Paizo made a slight balance mistake on Maneuver Master. Typically, a combat maneuver serves the same role as Stunning Fist: disabling an opponent for a round or two. When they gave the Maneuver Master more combat maneuvers and fewer damaging attacks by substituting Flurry of Manuevers for Flurry of Blows, they left the Maneuver Master too devoted to disabling without enough emphasis on damaging.
Let's swap a damaging ability for Stunning Fist.
Maneuver Damage (Ex)
Whenever a Maneuver Master successfully uses a combat maneuver against an opponent, he may also deal damage to the opponent equal to his Wisdom bonus (minumum 1). This damage is not subject to damage prevention.This ability replaces Stunning Fist.
i got a picture in my head of a monk grabbing a dude by the arm and just slinging him about and slamming him into the ground on either side of him. flurry or reposition + ki throw for the win. not practical combat wise, but funny as hell to rag doll a wizard I think.
Kerobelis asked about the goals of this discussion. I think the goal is to explain why the monk is a solid class archetype. The easiest way to do that is to propose a fix to the monk so that others can see how the monk is supposed to work. As for me, I like to dig down into theory.
That is a pretty hefty statement, how the monk is "Supposed to work".
While it is the flavor of the month due to the FoB controversy, I am not so sure that the monk is broken and not working. And I think the developers see this as well as there has been plenty of time to make fixes. It seems people want more. I think UC and UM did a lot to help the monk while the rogue has further been marginalized (ninja, vivesectionist, etc.).
That being said, I do like some of the proposed ideas. There is some great innovation in ways to make unarmed strikes magical and thus putting monks on the same footing magic weapon wise as other classes. I do think the developers are at least open to ideas on this topic due to the discussion in the UE threads that started all the chaos.
Anyway, keep the ideas up.
@Cel'Daren: I'm going to modify your proposals a little to make them easier to use and fit the rules in a more conventional manner, or modify them to make them slightly better.
That's why I submitted them. Your rewording of FoB is what I was trying to get at, but couldn't seem to get the words down properly. The change to Fast Movement I like, more flexible than my idea.
As for Ki Strike, the only suggestion I can really make is to treat the enhancements as equal to the effects of weapon enhancements (at +3 they overcome cold iron and silver, +4 adamantine, +5, alignment). The first two could keep their abilities as they're fine.
The other thing is the ability to add weapon properties is, I believe, not really worth hit. Most monks won't really have enough Ki to make use of it, not in between using 1 ki for an additional attack, or 1 ki for additional movement, etc. The Ki Pool is too limited a resource for them to be spending 2 ki per additional ability for roughly 3 rounds.
Ah, I think I was half-asleep by the time I started on that part. Forgive me. My intent was to have it treat the enhancement as equal to the effects of weapon enhancements, even if my wording went off that mark.
As for the adding weapon properties... for some reason I thought the monk's Ki Pool would be bigger (Monk level + Wis mod). Probably because I think that's what it should be. As for the having the duration based on the user's Wis Mod, I'm just a fan of having a monk be very high Wis (In my world, Wis should be more important than Str for a Monk. I know it isn't true but I wish it was.).
The ki cost could be reduced to 1 ki point, and the duration could be extended to 1 minute per monk level (To make it equal to the Paladin's duration length).
That is a pretty hefty statement, how the monk is "Supposed to work".Kerobelis asked about the goals of this discussion. I think the goal is to explain why the monk is a solid class archetype. The easiest way to do that is to propose a fix to the monk so that others can see how the monk is supposed to work. As for me, I like to dig down into theory.
This is the Suggestions forum, a place for bold statements. In the Advice forum people express their preferences, in the Rules forum people are careful about exact information, in the General Discussion forum people give opinions, and here people dream.
While it is the flavor of the month due to the FoB controversy, I am not so sure that the monk is broken and not working. And I think the developers see this as well as there has been plenty of time to make fixes. It seems people want more. I think UC and UM did a lot to help the monk while the rogue has further been marginalized (ninja, vivesectionist, etc.).
The current monk has worked for me when I played the class. However, the strength of a character is more in the player than in the class. I have seen optimized characters played with bad attitude that make them half useless. And I have seen party teamwork that makes every character shine. Power balance is not all important.
For me the FOB controversy is an annoyance because until it is settled I am unsure of a small piece of rules, and it is also an opportunity because we can make that small piece of the rules better than it had been before.
And the dreams of better monks here define what better could mean for the FOB controversy.
The main difficulty that people have in defining how the problems with the current monk should be fixed is that there are several different views on what a monk should be.
There is the Bruce Lee/Chuck Norris camp, who absolutely hate the 'wimpy' mystical abilities, yearn for a full BAB and d10; the guys who want the monk to be a kick-ass warrior that can mop up the floor and stand toe-to-toe with fighters, barbarians, rangers, and paladins.
There is the Wuxia school, who want it all. Good fighting abilities (weapons being more important in this camp than unarmed strikes) combined with supernatural abilities found in modern Asian martial arts films.
Finally, there is the Kung Fu style (after the old TV series, not the martial art form), who hearken back to the old mystical monk of AD&D. A martial character, but not quite as strong as the full BAB classes, with a solid mix of unique abilities that aren't (quite) as incredible as Wuxia films, but are still beyond the keen of mortal man.
And we can't forget the small minority who believe the monks should be a hybrid-caster subset of the cleric, relying on spells instead of discrete abilities, but they are very quiet these days. Perhaps planning a coup? Hmmmmm. We must watch them closely, I think.
And within all of these camps, we have questions on the role of the monk: is he a front-line warrior? Should he be a skirmisher? A scout? Have an expanded skill set to make him a skill monk-ey? Is he the caster killer archetype? Is he offensive? Defensive? And so on and so forth.
This is what makes the monk so difficult to define; that everyone has their own view of what the monk should be--and that makes it difficult to acheive consenus.
Master Arminas
For simplicity I take the monk's role from the paragraph in the top left of page 57 of the CRB, defining the monk has hitting foes hard and unexpectedly. The unexpected they can do, the hard ... nope, sorry, the monk either has problems even hitting, or cannot hit hard.
An approach I prefer, to be honest Dean. However, one issue links to others, and simple isn't always easy to achieve. I made a few changes in my redesign, changing just a few class features, and I found out that they rapidly spiralled out of control. On the plus side, changing individual class features does allow the devs to pick the ones THEY feel need to be changed.
The minimalist approach has already been suggested: leave flurry of blows alone, as it was before SKR shook the hornet's nest. Add one feature (weapons training, whether it is called monastic weapons training or whatever) to the monk class, exactly as the fighter class feature of the same name, at the same levels, but applying only to the monk weapons group (which includes unarmed strike).
That is the minimal approach, and it restores the monk to using a single weapon without the inexplicit, unstated TWF division of SKR's clarification, while the weapon training closes the gap somewhat between full BAB martial classes and the monk martial class.
For an equal strength, rangers and TWF fighters will be equal (w/o favored enemy), all other fighters will still be +3 attack bonus ahead of monks, while paladins and barbarians will be at +2 (w/o smite evil or rage).
Done. That is the minimalist approach.
Master Arminas
The minimalist approach has already been suggested: leave flurry of blows alone, as it was before SKR shook the hornet's nest. Add one feature (weapons training, whether it is called monastic weapons training or whatever) to the monk class, exactly as the fighter class feature of the same name, at the same levels, but applying only to the monk weapons group (which includes unarmed strike).
The only reason I wouldn't go for a weapon training option is that it enhances to hit and damage, and can stack with magic enhancements. The monk is defensively powerful, too much offence on them could be unbalancing. I suggested a natural enhancement to hit instead, that way you don't risk the damage getting out of control, and you cannot over-stack the to-hit.
Basically though it comes down to:
- the monk needs the flexibility in flurry of blows
- it needs to be flurry of blows, not flurry of misses (unarmed) or flurry of tickles (armed)
- A cheaper, better option than the AoMF for enhancing unarmed strikes would be nice, if you don't give the unarmed strike an enhancement bonus
Not sure if this has been brought up yet...but has anyone discussed the Deadly Fist Archetype for the Soulknife in Psionics Expanded from Dreamscarred Press? Because it sounds almost exactly like the OP's suggestion.
1. "Reduce the Monk Unarmed Damage Dice to 1d6 or 1d8...It would mean that Spring Attack and Vital Strike could be potentially stacked. After all, 4d6 and 4d8 are MUCH less threatening than 8d10."
-Check. It's 1d6. Plus, they get Psychic Strike for some burst damage while skirmishing.
2. "Replace their increases in Monk Unarmed Strike Damage with a bonus to attack and damage with Monk Weapons and Unarmed Strike, and give Unarmed Strike unique weapon properties that allow it to remain a unique and interesting option to use…thus allowing a player to play an unarmed or armed monk and have great utility throughout and allow a greater number of options for the player."
-Check. They get the standard Soulknife weapon enhance progression to their unarmed strikes.
3. "It would also allow for Monk to have Full Base Attack Bonus."
-Check. The Soulknife is a full BAB class. There's a series of Blade skills (think Rogue talents or Rage powers) that replicate the TWF tree for DFSKs if you want to continue with the "Flurry of Blows" route.
4. "Base Monk attacks off something other than Strength, like Wisdom or Dexterity."
-Check. There's a Blade skill that allows you to swap Wisdom for Strength when maintaining psionic focus.
5. "The compromises must end."
-Kind of check. A basic Deadly Fist is going to be a primary melee combatant - no if's, and's, or but's. However, there is the Gifted Blade (stackable with Deadly Fist) that drops Psychic Strike for very limited manifesting, much of which can replace the hodge podge of class features lost (Slow Fall? Nah, Wall Walker).
It won't fulfill everyone's dreams (especially the inability to use Monk Archetypes and Ki-focused feats without some effort), but I think it's a great source for DMs who want to give their players an unarmed class that "works."
Admittedly, combining them with Psionics worked damn well in 4th ed. But we're not here to play 4th ed.
Still, the idea of an expendable resource (like Ki) that could be used for exceptional effects (like powers) is a really good one. It lead to the Qigong Monk (one of the best Monk variants currently playable).
I kind of wish that they would revisit the Qigong Monk idea, but with less expensive Ki Effects (because Qigong Monk is one hell of a Ki Guzzler) and maybe a little less arbitrary. Lets face it, some of the feats you replicate with Qigong powers really aren't all that impressive in the one round you have access to them, and some of the spells are a bit flimsy...so you run out of Ki REALLY quickly for very little effect if something goes wrong. However, you still get to remove all the Monk class features you don't like for useful powers you can bring to bear using your Ki Pool. And when things go right? They go right with a vengeance. Especially since there are awesome attack spells a Qigong Monk can pick up which single-handedly fix the whole "I've moved: so now what do I do" monk problem.
...which brings us back to the reason everyone always brings up "Play an Unarmed Swordsage" during Monk discussions. We like our monks to be equipped with awesome secret techniques they learned, and can deliver to damage, buff themselves, or otherwise counteract a bad situation.
I guess I would love a monk that used its Ki Pool to throw out effects like the Qigong Monk, but in a less arbitrary way than "replicate a feat (tree) for a round" or "replicate this spell for a round". Or maybe just an increased number of Qigong Powers for Qigong Monk in newer supplements to help even out the inconsistencies.
But that's just one potential route for Monk. What do other people think about a Monk set of "powers" attached to the class they can apply using their Ki Pool?
It works in Pathfinder too, a monk/psychic warrior is a great combo. Problem is...psionics are not official in Pathfinder. So it's out for PFS, or any 'official Pathfinder only' game, which is most of them.
+1
I always thought that a lot if not all of the monks issues could be solved with an application of psionics. Hell, allowing monk's access to psionic feats would fix a lot of the issue. Know its not going to happen, but a man can dream.
Shameless self-promotion:
THIS is what I did with the monk.|
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not too bad. I think the monk would benefit from a rig kind of how the Magus is with their pool and arcana. or a barb, but instead of rage its "insight." Ki is too limited currently. on a tough fight it'd be easy to burn thru it all in one encounter. should've have to be forced to take the Extra Ki feat if thats one of the class features you need to overcome existing weakness.
Even tho Ki Mystic, Drunk Monk and Hungry Ghost try to address it a little bit, they all come up short. Monks need their ki and it is expended too quickly w/o a good means to replenish it. A larger pool to start would take some of the stress off monks. Then give him the option to tap into his own minor spell set (divine) or clarity powers, or whatnot as per the Quiggong arch.
There is a lot of potential for this class to be really formidable given the right circumstances, but the mechanics aren't in place for him to be an offensive powerhouse.
On another forum I visit, Qinggong/Hungry Ghost is highly valued because it gives a way to replenish Ki along with good uses for Ki.
Increasing the Ki pool to start at 1st level and having it equal Monk level+Wis (instead of half monk level) would be a nice start - either that or start it at 4 and have it equal to Monk level -3 +Wis.
Does anyone else remember the 3.5 Factotum? What if Monks got Ki on a per-encounter basis instead of a per-day basis?
Alternatively, what if Monks had a better recharge mechanic - anything from whenever they perform a successful combat maneuver they recharge a point of Ki to meditating (a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity) to recharge a point of Ki?
Personally, I decided that if I ever get a wish with my Monk in Legacy of Fire* I'll be wishing to regenerate Ki at a rate equal to a trolls regeneration of HP.
*A very real possibility. My GM in that game loves to have secret wishes lingering on players. You say something like, "I wish it wasn't so hot outside" BAM! you're in the arctic.