Goblin Squad Member
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Basic rule of thumb:
If you say something is "entirely optional", then it means that most players will not do it, and the effort to make the system is mostly wasted.
If you say something gives a bonus, even a tiny marginal bonus if you do it, it means that some large number of people will feel that they must do that thing, no matter how boring and repetitive it becomes, because getting anything other than the absolute maximum value from their actions feels wrong to them. It is not "entirely optional" anymore.
If you have a game system where you get a random bonus, you will create a skinner box where a certain number of people will feel trapped - they have to do the thing to get the maximum advantage, but they can't control if they get it or not, so they have to keep doing the thing until they get the max bonus. If you give them the max bonus 5% of the time (20 on a d20), you're asking them to waste 95% of the time they spend doing that thing.
These are variants on the "wouldn't it be cool if "X" means nobody does "X"" problem. If you give a mechanical advantage to people who are willing to strap on the skinner box and waste 95% of their time, you discourage most people from ever bothering with that game system, which means that the resources you spent to make that game system are disproportionately allocated to a small player population.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9go?Crafting#27
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9go?Crafting#41What about a minigame system that doesn't change the final product, but can produce it a little faster or more efficiently? Playing the minigames during the period of the item's construction would shave a little time off its production timer or let you recover scraps useful for some other project, but it wouldn't change the production item in any way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basic rule of thumb:
If you say something is "entirely optional", then it means that most players will not do it, and the effort to make the system is mostly wasted.
If you say something gives a bonus, even a tiny marginal bonus if you do it, it means that some large number of people will feel that they must do that thing, no matter how boring and repetitive it becomes, because getting anything other than the absolute maximum value from their actions feels wrong to them. It is not "entirely optional" anymore.
If you have a game system where you get a random bonus, you will create a skinner box where a certain number of people will feel trapped - they have to do the thing to get the maximum advantage, but they can't control if they get it or not, so they have to keep doing the thing until they get the max bonus. If you give them the max bonus 5% of the time (20 on a d20), you're asking them to waste 95% of the time they spend doing that thing.
These are variants on the "wouldn't it be cool if "X" means nobody does "X"" problem. If you give a mechanical advantage to people who are willing to strap on the skinner box and waste 95% of their time, you discourage most people from ever bothering with that game system, which means that the resources you spent to make that game system are disproportionately allocated to a small player population.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9go?Crafting#27
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9go?Crafting#41What about a minigame system that doesn't change the final product, but can produce it a little faster or more efficiently? Playing the minigames during the period of the item's construction would shave a little time off its production timer or let you recover scraps useful for some other project, but it wouldn't change the production item in any way.
Wait.. Aren't you proposing what Mr. Ryan Dancey shot down in the post you're quoting?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the item becomes "Swords +1 Blue Hilt Pink Tinted Blade .75% crafter bonus made by Dave Smith" ...
Customizations in colour, blade shape, and other visual effects could be a great MTX-shop item. If I could buy an illusion that allows me to make any blade I hold look a certain colour (basically a limited form of the prestidigitation cantrip) then I could be interested in something like that. It shouldn't be an extra item in itself, but basically a 'skill' - you know a tiny bit of magic that changes how a weapon looks while you have it. That would allow for fashion changes, with colours, reflectivity, translucence, auras, etc. It would be a lot like the costumes from CoH/V, all about form, not changing function.
Maybe crafters could produce more short-term versions of these effects, so you could try out a look for coin before buying the MTX version. The coin version applies to one item until you lose it, but the MTX version becomes a permanent option added to a 'costume' tab.
Note: I'm just reading through a Feedly list of dev posts, not the whole thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait.. Aren't you proposing what Mr. Ryan Dancey shot down in the post you're quoting?If you say something gives a bonus, even a tiny marginal bonus if you do it, it means that some large number of people will feel that they must do that thing, no matter how boring and repetitive it becomes, because getting anything other than the absolute maximum value from their actions feels wrong to them.What about a minigame system that doesn't change the final product, but can produce it a little faster or more efficiently? Playing the minigames during the period of the item's construction would shave a little time off its production timer or let you recover scraps useful for some other project, but it wouldn't change the production item in any way.
Perhaps, if you didn't read it well enough to understand that a "tiny marginal bonus" is not equivalent to "doesn't change the final product".
I said it could save a little time and produce a little useful scrap. Neither of those would change any quality of the original item in any way.
Example:
You make a job of 20 swords without a crafting interaction game, and get 20 swords in 20 minutes.
You make a job of 20 swords with a crafting interaction game, and get 20 swords in 17 minutes, with a side effect of some iron scrap to recycle into some later project.
Both batches of swords are functionally the same in every way, the minigame is just a 'go faster' button you can push if you don't have other stuff to do, or you want to be extremely frugal with even basic materials.
Clear now?
The features of the final object being equivalent is just part of the equation.
Increases in crafting efficiency for the same end result is CENTRALLY relevant to the efficiency/profit of a crafter.
Your example there just described a 15% advantage in labor/material efficiency.
Successful "professional" crafters are focused on multiplication of money, not objects in and of themselves.
As Dancy described, plenty of people will be pursing every advantage that they can. That includes crafters/producers, not just consumers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The features of the final object being equivalent is just part of the equation.
Increases in crafting efficiency for the same end result is CENTRALLY relevant to the efficiency/profit of a crafter.
Your example there just described a 15% advantage in labor/material efficiency.
Successful "professional" crafters are focused on multiplication of money, not objects in and of themselves.As Dancy described, plenty of people will be pursing every advantage that they can. That includes crafters/producers, not just consumers.
That's one job. Some with the materials and skills to run many concurrent jobs may find it more efficient to start many and do other things while they're running, while those without tons of resources or enough skill to launch many jobs at once could get better efficiency from hitting the 'go faster' button. There are even some who aren't on stimulants all the time who prefer to chat with friends instead of frenetically running about, and the minigame could fill in for what might otherwise be staring at a wall.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The features of the final object being equivalent is just part of the equation.
Increases in crafting efficiency for the same end result is CENTRALLY relevant to the efficiency/profit of a crafter.
Your example there just described a 15% advantage in labor/material efficiency.
Successful "professional" crafters are focused on multiplication of money, not objects in and of themselves.As Dancy described, plenty of people will be pursing every advantage that they can. That includes crafters/producers, not just consumers.
true but those people will actively have to pursue those in game, and with a skill-per-time based system every bit the put into that crafting is a moment they aren't putting into something like building, farming, pvp, etc.
Thus it will tend itself to the more serious craftsmen. And if a PVPer wants to do some on the side, then that is fine: a tenant of this game is the fact that there are no classes. If you want to follow a dedicated path to the fullest fine. if you want to branch out fine.
I don't see how what you are stating is an overt problem that must be fixed in the mechanics.