One of our group is creating his own world and with it he's changing how attributes are determined to - in his mind - better represent the true nature of the races and to create a greater diversity between them. He figures more disparate attributes will lead to more disparate class choices and therefor more disparate cultures. It all grew out of a discussion surrounding the silliness of the fact that a 3' (or shorter) halfling might have a natural 16 Strength or a dwarf a natural 18 Dexerity.
Anyway, this is how one would roll for characters in his campaign world, with all dice being counted (no re-rolling 1's), meaning that a character could legitimately roll 24's in some cases, representing the extreme of that racial trait. The averaged are listed as well, and all of it ties into a role-playing aspect of the race, from the Dwarves' dour natures and fabled pragmaticism to the Elves' cool and aloof demeanours but quickness of thought and grace of form. Halflings are exceptionally nimble but often act without thinking and Half-Orcs are the ultimate brutes.
Humans and Half-Elves
6+2d6 for all attributes. (13 average)
Halflings
Str 6+1d6 (9-10)
Con 6+2d6 (13)
Dex 6+3d6 (16-17)
Int 6+2d6 (13)
Wis 6+1d6 (9-10)
Cha 6+3d6 (16-17)
Dwarves
Str 6+2d6 (13)
Con 6+3d6 (16-17)
Dex 6+1d6 (9-10)
Int 6+2d6 (13)
Wis 6+3d6 (16-17)
Cha 6+1d6 (9-10)
Elves
Str 6+2d6 (13)
Con 6+1d6 (9-10)
Dex 6+3d6 (16-17)
Int 6+3d6 (16-17)
Wis 6+2d6 (13)
Cha 6+1d6 (9-10)
Half-Orcs
Str 6+3d6 (16-17)
Con 6+3d6 (16-17)
Dex 6+2d6 (13)
Int 6+1d6 (9-10)
Wis 6+2d6 (13)
Cha 6+1d6 (9-10)
I like it but if I used it I think I would have to add more races for some more possible outcomes but I do like the idea as a whole
I'm dotting this to look at it some more. I'm liking the concept so far.
I'm dotting this to look at it some more. I'm liking the concept so far.
Now for what its worth, those 'averages' work out to about a 28 point buy, but without the flexibility that a 28 point buy would normally offer... and we tend to play in a pretty low magic campaign, so the higher attributes actually help keep things balanced.
I like it but if I used it I think I would have to add more races for some more possible outcomes but I do like the idea as a whole
Yeah. he has a few non-standard races of his own.
He's nto a fan of gnomes so there aren't any in his campaign world, but this is what they would look like:
Gnomes
Str 6+1d6 (9-10)
Con 6+2d6 (13)
Dex 6+3d6 (16-17)
Int 6+3d6 (16-17)
Wis 6+1d6 (9-10)
Cha 6+2d6 (13)
He does however use the race from 4th edition D&D the Dragonborn
Dragonborn
Str 6+3d6 (16-17)
Con 6+2d6 (13)
Dex 6+2d6 (13)
Int 6+2d6 (13)
Wis 6+1d6 (9-10)
Cha 6+2d6 (13)
...as well as two oriental races on a seperate continent:
Tengu
Str 6+2d6 (13)
Con 6+1d6 (9-10)
Dex 6+3d6 (16-17)
Int 6+2d6 (13)
Wis 6+3d6 (16-17)
Cha 6+1d6 (9-10)
Kitsune
Str 6+1d6 (9-10)
Con 6+2d6 (13)
Dex 6+3d6 (16-17)
Int 6+2d6 (13)
Wis 6+1d6 (9-10)
Cha 6+3d6 (16-17)
Actually not too bad of a system.
Make min/max easy. Just utterly destroys any reasonable chance to play an off beat character that isn't severally gimped (halfling fighter, half orc bard, etc). Also the iconic dwarf fighter seems be in danger of fading into obscurity.
Make min/max easy. Just utterly destroys any reasonable chance to play an off beat character that isn't severally gimped (halfling fighter, half orc bard, etc). Also the iconic dwarf fighter seems be in danger of fading into obscurity.
Not sure where you are getting that. All of those 'off-beat' characters are still playable, they're just more realistic - a halfling fighter would, by necessity, by Dexterity based for instance while nothing prevents a half-Orc from being a bard, merely from him being a GOOD bard when compared to races like elves or halflings. A 9-10 charisma would still normally be considered average, no? If someone wants to go against grain for role-play purposes by all means they certainly should, but part of that is the fact that you are doing something difficult.
As for a Dwarven Fighter, they have the same chance to roll an 18 strength as a human, BUT could conceivably roll a 24 Constitution and a 24 Wisdom, making their heartiness legendary (as it should be). The trade off, they're traditionally dour or gruff in personality and less agile than your average elf or human... sounds like an iconic dwarf fighter to me.
Another aspect of it is it starts making certain feats almost racial/cultural in nature which gives greater and greater racial identity to the characters. Also, with the ability to raise attributes through leveling, magic items and a host of other options, these ranges are in no way crippling.
I actually like this idea... it could be interesting to try this system out some time.
The one thing I'm unsure about is the fact that each race has two 'bad' abilities. This leads to weird things like Kitsunes having bad wisdom, when animal races are usually known for having fairly good senses. Unfortunately, them having bad Con or Int would either cripple them or not make sense thematically either...
I actually like this idea... it could be interesting to try this system out some time.
The one thing I'm unsure about is the fact that each race has two 'bad' abilities. This leads to weird things like Kitsunes having bad wisdom, when animal races are usually known for having fairly good senses. Unfortunately, them having bad Con or Int would either cripple them or not make sense thematically either...
Obviously none of these stats are set in stone. The original idea was to give every race a 'good', 'average' and 'bad' physical stat and the same with mental stats. That was ultimately impossible, so the next default was two 'good', two 'average' and two 'bad' across the six attributes (as with the Half-Orc). As more races were added for diversity's sake even that became untenable (as with the Dragonborn), but the total number of dice rolled (12) was kept static for balance sake.
There has been some dicsussion that the non-human races deserve overall stronger stats than humans and half-elves (as they do in basic Pathfinder rules, +2, +2, -2 attribute mods), but thus far we've been fine with the results. It really makes non-humans seem exotic and... inhuman... when their attribute ranges are so far outside (above and below) what humans are capable of.
There has also been talk of adding an alternative racial trait to each race, the ability to swap one specific attribute for another when it comes to skill checks and class features. For instance, a Dwarf would be able to use his Wisdom as his Charisma for the purposes class features or skill checks that rely on Charisma or a halfling would be able to swap out Dexterity for Strength under similar circumstances... but the reigning thought is that that would make non-human races too powerful.
We're actually quite happy with it as is, but it does take a slightly open mind to make such a departure from RAW.
I actually like this idea... it could be interesting to try this system out some time.
The one thing I'm unsure about is the fact that each race has two 'bad' abilities. This leads to weird things like Kitsunes having bad wisdom, when animal races are usually known for having fairly good senses. Unfortunately, them having bad Con or Int would either cripple them or not make sense thematically either...
Thier lower Wisdom - and I know you're just using that as an example - represents their short attentions spans and how easily istracted they are, but things around them or their own musings. It fits the character thematically, but does seem to pose some slight mechanical issues. One option might be to add the racial ability of Keen Senses as an alternate to Agility for Kitsunes.
We used something similiar in a homebrew but instead of just d6's, we had different size dice depending on race and attribute. Ours were a little more extreme, with less randomness. For example;
Elf
Str 1d10+8
Dex 1d6+12
Con 1d10+6
Int 1d8+10
Wis 1d8+10
Cha 1d8+10
Dwarf
Str 1d8+10
Dex 1d10+8
Con 1d4+14
Int 1d8+10
Wis 1d8+10
Cha 1d10+6
One thing that could "even" the field for the humans & half-elves is for them to get one stat that they can add 1d6 to. That would be like the guy that is born beyond the norm.
We used something similiar in a homebrew but instead of just d6's, we had different size dice depending on race and attribute. Ours were a little more extreme, with less randomness. For example;
Elf
StrDex
Con
Int
Wis
Cha
Hmm. A decent ninja? Those were some fortuitous rolls.
The unforgivable drawback of this sort of thing is that it forces you to use in order rolling, making it impossible to preplan your character at all.
Not exactly - it just makes optimizing a little more difficult. Nothing says you can't be a Fighter with a strength of 14... it just creates a circumstance where Dwarves are generally tougher fighters than Halflings generally more agile rogues. No one says that you can't be a Dwarven Rogue or Halfling Fighter, merely that you're not racially predisposed to be the best at it. All of the characters still have the equivalent of a 28 point buy on average, so none of them will be sucking.
An option that was discussed - all of the characters ultimately roll the same number of die (12d6). Nothing says you couldn't roll those 12d6 and then assign them to each attribute as you wish.