Are Ghouls mindless?
Nope. Only things with an int score of - are mindless, and the mindless property is normally written into the statblock. They are actually smarter than the average person. I think their int is 12 or 13.
I ask because all the GMs I have ever played with had given them the mindless subtext. I finally read it and it seemed to me that they had a mind.
I know I will have some difficulty pointing this fact out to some of the GMs because there do set on them being mindless but I'm sure many will come around.
Thanks WraithStrike you have answered many of my questions quickly and politely.
...your DM sounds weird. Why would Ghouls be mindless? They even have their own nation/city in the Darklands.
Mindless of just simply feral? I often see (and depict them) as feral beings with simple goals in their unlife (feed, feed, feed, survive). They can be quite cunning in their pursuit of that simple goals, however, with their standard Intelligence of 13 (I just stated a NPC ghoul herbalist yesterday or day before).
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To support your argument, check out various adventures using them, flavor text in books, and so on. All of it backs you up. Heck, in the Pathfinder Tales section of this very site there's the "Blood Crimes" story, featuring a Ghoul with a speaking part, and Inner Sea Magic lists as one of it's highest level spellcasters a Ghoul Mystic Theurge.
Other examples abound in, well, anything that has examples. And this isn't an edition thing, Ghouls have always been smart both in D&D and almost everything else featuring them. I honestly have no idea where your GMs got this idea.
If the mindless trait is not in the stat block it was to be under the creature type. Undead are not mindless and neither is the ghoul as an individual creature.
• Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)...
You're welcome. :)
Other examples abound in, well, anything that has examples. And this isn't an edition thing, Ghouls have always been smart both in D&D and almost everything else featuring them. I honestly have no idea where your GMs got this idea.
"Night Of The Living Dead"
"Night Of The Living Dead"
Who are zombies which is why the pathfinder description of zombies states "When left unattended, zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures to slaughter and devour."
Ghouls on the other hand "prefer rotting bodies and often bury their victims for a while to improve their taste" though theire description does go on to say "they eat fresh kills if they are hungry enough."
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"Night Of The Living Dead"
I suppose, but that's one reference ever, and to something that really has very little to do with any other depiction. Can you name another?
Whereas intelligent (or at least sapient) ghouls I've got three off the top of my head (Lovecraft, mythology, and every RPG I've ever read with something called a Ghoul), and can easily come up with more given time.
In his defense he is human and he makes mistakes. I can understand his point of view on it ,trying to demoralize a Ghoul sounds a bit strange and even stranger still putting it to sleep with a mind effect when the organ is clearly (un)dead that normaly means no longer in function. Now that said I know you can do these things but the idea is just a little out there (but so is most things) though I'm happy I can now approach the situation from other angles.
Thanks everyone for your replys
You were asking about mindless or immunity to mind-affecting effects? Because these are separate traits: all mindless creatures are immune to mind-affecting effects but there is a lot of sapient creatures that are immune to mind-affecting effects. Constructs and Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects as a feature of their type, regardless of their Intelligence score.
Alright so no mind effecting spells. But can I feint, dazzling display, or otherwise use combat maneuvers that are mind effecting?
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
What combat maneuvers are mind-affecting?
Feint is the main one it's a bluff check and does not effect mindless creatures.
Edit * this leads me to believe its mind effecting.
I see there has been some modifications and additions covering this in the PRD it answers all my questions about feinting that my Core could not.
Thanks everyone for being patient with me.