Kyoketsu Shoge Threatening.


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

10 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

How does the Kyoketsu Shoge threaten? 5, 10, 15, 20ft range? None? When you "throw" the blade end, what action is to retrieve it?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I might have overlooked it, but last time I searched I didn't find a definitive answer to how any part of the Kyoketsu Shoge works whatsoever. You can sort of piece together something that vaguely makes some sort of sense, but the weapon is woefully underspecified. Going strictly by the table, the weapon is just an ordinary reach weapon that happens to have a throw increment. So far so good. But then the description itself kind of veers off into bizzare world, describing a bunch of things you can do with the weapon that don't map super clearly to the table, none of which have specified mechanical effects. The "swing the hoop" thing: is that supposed to be the "reach" part on the table? How come the hoop's bludgeoning damage isn't on the table? Can I make a full-attack of hoop swings? If I throw the dagger more than ten feet, what happens? Does the whole weapon go with it? If I throw it less than ten feet does the whole weapon go with it? When it says that the blade can be used as an off-hand weapon, what's going on with the rest of the weapon? Am I supposed to be using the hoop part as the main-hand weapon? The weapon is identified as a reach weapon on the table; does that mean that it's a reach weapon for all uses? The blade sounds too short for that to be what they were going for, but that's what the text says. If the whole thing isn't supposed to be a reach weapon, what about its grapple and disarm properties? Do those apply to all its forms of use?

The weapon is basically a poster child for the importance of spelling out what on earth you're thinking of mechanically instead of hoping that vague fluffish text will somehow get it across. As it is, the weapon is just a big pile of ambiguity. You can run it going strictly off of the table and end up with a weapon that's more or less a low-damage longspear with some assorted properties on it, but that doesn't really match most people's feelings about what the weapon should be doing. You can also work with a DM to try to codify what on earth they were trying to get at when they wrote the weapon and just mark some stuff down, but there's really no solid answers as far as I can find them.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Honestly, I have no idea. It's like asking how the Tekko-Kagi works. Does it have an Armor Check Penalty?

I would like to see more clarification on how some of the items in UC actually function in the game world.


FAQd for support, even though I'm pretty sure the need for UC errata/clarification on many weapons is a well-known issue.

The way I've been running the kyoketsu shoge in our home group (not that this is necessarily correct at all, and some liberties are taken) is:


  • Two-handed exotic weapon that deals 1d4 (20/x2) B damage with reach (10 feet per the description of the reach weapon quality).
  • It can also be used somewhat as a double weapon, dealing 1d4 (20/x2) B damage on the primary hand and 1d4 (20/x2) S or P damage with the offhand. It's essentially a "semi-double" weapon; unlike a standard weapon with the double quality, the bludgeoning iron ring is always the primary "head" of the weapon. (This is how we explained away it not having the double weapon quality in its stat block like the kusarigama or double-chained kama.)
  • Usable in a flurry of blows per the monk weapon quality.
  • +2 CMB on disarms and grapples on a critical hit with the bludgeoning iron ring, per disarm and grapple weapon qualities. (The minimal research we did into the weapon always shows the vast majority of techniques using the iron ring and rope; the blade appears to be used to cut throats/stab kidneys/etc of an entangled or off-balance enemy, and otherwise just used for close strikes.)
  • The range increment is removed; that's the provenance of the rope dart. Instead, 20 feet is considered to be the functional length of the rope for climbing and allowable range for maintaining a weapon grapple. (Again, just never saw evidence of the hooked blade being thrown and the weapon also had utilitarian purposes.)
  • Usable as a grappling hook with 20 feet of rope for climbing.

EDIT: I would avoid this and a number of other exotic UC eastern weapons like the plague unless you're in a non-PFS game and work out exactly how it works with the GM ahead of time.

To answer your OP... RAW, it has a reach of 10 feet because that's what the reach quality does. With a range increment of 20' you could throw it to a max distance of 100 feet (five range increments) and it makes no provisions about maintaining a grip on the weapon or being able to retrieve it. (Again, none of that makes a lot of sense so work out something better than the RAW hodgepodge with your GM.)

Grand Lodge

The problem is, if one tries to build around using a weapon, you need to have some idea of how it works.

Grand Lodge

Does it threaten adjacent opponents?


The bludgeoning side works as a reach weapon (10 foot increment, does not threaten adjacent opponents). The blade side isn't a reach weapon according to the text, so I'd say that you can threaten with it, but it will only deal piercing damage if you do so.

It also specifies that the "dagger" side has to be used as an off-hand attack when attacking with it and that you can throw it like a dagger. I'd imagine that means you're launching the whole thing at the enemy, rather than holding onto the ring. I'd also say that you probably can hold onto the ring while throwing it which would reduce it to a 10 foot, no increments, ranged attack but that's not RAW. Retrieving it would probably be a move action, like picking up a weapon, but you wouldn't need to get adjacent to it since you're holding onto the ring anyways.

Officially? I have no clue.

Grand Lodge

Thing is, there is no "off-hand" weapon, unless used while two weapon fighting.


EDIT: Actually...

SRD wrote:

Kyoketsu Shoge

This weapon consists of a foot-long double-edged blade, with another smaller, curved hook-blade sticking out the side like a rooster’s spur. The blade is strung to a large iron hoop with 10-foot length of rope.

Benefit: The blade can be used as an off-hand melee weapon or thrown like a dagger, while the rope and circlet can be whipped around and swung at opponents as a bludgeoning reach weapon.

I suppose it really means that you can use it as an off-hand weapon, not that it has to be used as an off-hand weapon. It implies that it is like a dagger when used that way so it would be considered light for TWF.

This weapon is kinda derpy.

Grand Lodge

Would this be considered a two handed thrown weapon?


I wouldn't think so since it specifies that it's "thrown like a dagger" which is a light weapon, not a two handed one, even though the weapon itself is two handed. That seems to be the intent to me.

I get the feeling that the dev had an idea of what s/he wanted done, but didn't have the space available to flush it out as well as it could have been.

Grand Lodge

I wish a developer would comment on the intent of some of these weapons.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I wish a developer would comment on the intent of some of these weapons.

Or the contributors that had a hand in things :).

I don't know if we'll be seeing dev comments in the Rules Forum for a while, have you tried the Ask James Jacobs thread? I enjoy picking his brain on some corner cases or rules ambiguities. I know its not technically "official" but it helps to get another perspective - and a quality one at that!


How are these questions still not answered

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Kyoketsu Shoge Threatening. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions