Question is, do you fire the rays one after another, or do you create a triplet of rays that launch simultaneously? I see no evidence that indicates either solution to be compelling.
BTW, acting like your hand was a revolver wasn't exactly part of the description of ray-like spells last time I checked...
Question is, do you fire the rays one after another, or do you create a triplet of rays that launch simultaneously? I see no evidence that indicates either solution to be compelling.
BTW, acting like your hand was a revolver wasn't exactly part of the description of ray-like spells last time I checked...
Does not make any difference. You only get one AoO for the same type of activity, ranged attack in this case. Regardless of the number of rays, arrows or whatever :-)
I agree Sangalor. I've always ran with the rule that AoO don't stack. Regardless how many AoO an action provokes it does not grant more than one AoO for that triggering action per threatening creature.
Casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity (nearly) regardless of the spell it grants the AoO, but just because it's a ranged spell does not mean it grants two AoO.
Making a full attack with a bow does not provoke an AoO for each arrow fired.
Making an unarmed whirlwind attack against 5 threatening creatures (without IUS) would grant one AoO from each threatening creature. It would not provoke 25 AoO (One from each attacker for each attacker hit) it would only provoke 5 (one from each attacker for the whole attack)
Reading a scroll to cast a ranged spell provokes one AoO not 3.
Just my personal rulings as a GM and my 2 cp on the subject. Happy gaming.
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Ranged touch spell casting provokes twice:
- once for casting - can be avoided by casting defensively
- once for making a ranged attack when threatenedEach creature threatening you (with AoO left) gets those two attacks if it has combat reflexes and a high enough dex. Otherwise it's only once, and they may choose in iteration which attack they take.
Note that because of the rule that you cannot take an AoO for the same type of activity more than once if you threaten someone, scorching ray provokes up to thrice, but you can only take the AoO once for all ranged attacks (same as with a bow) :-)
Do you have a clear basis for the "same type of activity" rule or is that your interpretation of the text stating, "This feat (i.e. Combat Reflexes) does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity..."?
The text on ranged touch spells says, "Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively."
If the text on Combat Reflexes being limited to one attack for a given opportunity is interpreted to mean one per action (i.e. standard, move, full round, et cetera) rather than your 'same type of activity' limit then the fact that ranged touch attack spells are a single standard action would mean just one AoO rather than two. The bow full attack example comes out as just one AoO under either of those interpretations... yet others interpret it that someone firing three arrows in a full attack action can be hit with three AoO per threatening enemy.
Personally, I think the last sentence of the ranged touch text stating that "an" AoO is provoked constitutes a separate indication of just one AoO for that situation, but others have interpreted it that this statement is referring only to the 'attack portion' with a separate AoO for the 'non defensive spell portion', even though the preceding two sentences indicated that the attack is "part of the spell".
Your interpretation only differs from mine in allowing two AoO in the 'ranged touch spell' and 'unarmed attack on a charge' type situations where two different things take place as part of a single action. Others allow multiple similar things to each result in a separate attack. In the absence of any incontrovertible evidence of intent this will continue to be handled differently by various people... and even if it is eventually ruled one way or another I'm sure many will then house rule changes to the way they prefer.
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Ranged touch spell casting provokes twice:
- once for casting - can be avoided by casting defensively
- once for making a ranged attack when threatenedEach creature threatening you (with AoO left) gets those two attacks if it has combat reflexes and a high enough dex. Otherwise it's only once, and they may choose in iteration which attack they take.
Note that because of the rule that you cannot take an AoO for the same type of activity more than once if you threaten someone, scorching ray provokes up to thrice, but you can only take the AoO once for all ranged attacks (same as with a bow) :-)
Agree with all but the very last part. Both Scorching Ray and a Full Atack with a bow, (minus Rapid Shot), all provoke and would draw seperate AoO as different opportunities, because, even though those rays "fire simultaniously", the rules actually do not work that way. You roll one then the other, until you are done. If you drop your opponent due to damage, you can choose a different target inbetween fireing the rays. But that's not really the definitive cause. They each require seperate attack rolls, damage rolls, rolls for overcoming SR, might suffer frm different Miss Chances, and etc. . . They are all different attacks.
Same with your bow. Each shot, unless with a few Feats and abilities which specify that they use one attack/damage roll, are all seperate attacks.
In theory, that means you could full attack with a bow: take 2 shots (and draw anAoO), 5ft step (and are now threatened by a new enemy) and take another shot. According to what your saying, that new enemy would not get an AoO, because you no longer provoke, (other enemies already took the "AN" AoO).
I agree with the bow, not with the scorching ray. Since the rays are fired simultaneously, you shouldn't provoke more than one AoO from an opponent, and you shouldn't have the chance to change target it it's get killed. With simultaneously, you need to declare the targets before rolling, or I don't understand what simultaneously means.
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So you may say 'although the rules say this, they don't mean it' but Beckett that doesn't make it so. You may elect (or have elected) to house rule such, but that's neither here nor there.
That's not what I am saying. Things happen simultaniously all the time, but there is still an order to them because that is how combat is measured. In combat, everyone is going simultaniously, but we use innitiative order to break things up. Even though the rays are firing simultaniously, you roll for one, and resolve it, then the next, then the next, and so on. Because that's how the game works.
An example of why this needs to work this way would be things like Spell Turning, Snatch Arrow, or anything that would need to differintiate between the specific attacks. True Strike, which adds a bonus the the next Attack roll, and Scorching Ray has more than one. One must come "first".
Honestly it doesn't matter, with regards to scorching ray.
A) If you interpret it as simultaneous, that's fine, then you pick your targets and you takes your chances. One provocation on AoO. You balance that out with the fact you're targeting up front and can't adjust.
B) If you interpret it as multiple iterative attacks, that's fine. Then you pick your target before firing each ray. You provoke every time you attack. You balance that out with the fact you can change your targeting if someone goes down from one hit.
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Actually no.
You pick all of your targets. Assign the dice and roll them all. All of the rays fire, as the rules say, at the same time.
As do all Full Attacks (which are one action), and yet, one after another, as I said. They are still happening simultaniously, as far as the non-mechanics go. But mechanically, they are in order. BUt, unlike other ranged attack spells that offer multiple attacks to be fired, like the before mentioned Produce Flame, you can not "hold" the rays. They all must fire right then, and all together, where as Produce Flame uses a mechanic that lets you shoot a flame as you want, over many rounds.
It might be the case that one ray would have dropped the first target, but if you fired 2 at them and they both hit.. perhaps instead of merely dropped they are now dead. You might have wanted one of those to have been on another target, but them's the breaks.
It's just the way the rules tell you to do it. Its part of the nature of the spell, just like magic missile in that regard. You don't fire off one missile at a time until you drop a target and then move on. They all fire at the same time.
Scorching ray's also ONE spell regardless of the number of rays. You check spell resistance for a hit target only once not up to three times. And spell turning doesn't turn rays, btw. Nor does 'snatch arrow' allow you to grab one..
-James
I'll admit that Scorching Ray is an oddity, and it could honestly go either way. I still disagree with you. I was pointing out the Snatch Arrow, Spell Turning, and similar things not for Scorching Ray specifically, but for cases that would be in similar situations that would apply to them specifically. With the exception of SR. What your saying is that if you fired a ray at 3 different targets, and one has SR, (and you fail to overcome) all three rays would fizzle, right?
Agree with all but the very last part. Both Scorching Ray and a Full Atack with a bow, (minus Rapid Shot), all provoke and would draw seperate AoO as different opportunities...Ranged touch spell casting provokes twice:
- once for casting - can be avoided by casting defensively
- once for making a ranged attack when threatenedEach creature threatening you (with AoO left) gets those two attacks if it has combat reflexes and a high enough dex. Otherwise it's only once, and they may choose in iteration which attack they take.
Note that because of the rule that you cannot take an AoO for the same type of activity more than once if you threaten someone, scorching ray provokes up to thrice, but you can only take the AoO once for all ranged attacks (same as with a bow) :-)
I disagree here.
To me it's quite simple: Ranged attack roll -> Attack of Opportunity.
However, once bad guy Bobo has taken an attack of opportunity for a ranged attack (roll) in a round, he cannot take another. So your scorching ray provokes up to thrice, your bow also may provoke multiple times - but Bobo may only attack you once for one of those attacks in a round. Might be the first ranged attack roll, or the second, or the third... Does not matter. He may only do it for you once. He may do it with someone else, though. And he may still attack you for other AoO, like not casting defensively or moving more than 5 ft out of your threatened area etc. :-)
Always provided Bobo has combat reflexes and a high enough dex...
I don't get the scorching ray discussion about picking your targets one after another or beating spell resistance multiple times. Or about how many targets you may choose:
- You can choose up to three targets
- All must be within 30 feet of each other
- You make an attack roll for each of them
- The rays are all fired at once, not like a weapon (bow, sword etc.) attack iteratively.
This is all spelled out explicitely in the spell description.
Spell resistence has to be overcome once per target per spell. Therefore
- you attack the same guy with it -> beat it once
- you attack different guys with it -> beat it several (up to three) times
What exactly am I missing here? :-)
EDIT: Sorry, I somehow had "rays are fire one after another". That does not make sense with the rest of what I wrote, is incorrect, and not what I wanted to say :-)
Let's get rid of this mamby-pamby parsing of parts of actions. Let's just say any provoking action is made up of a nearly infinite number of muscle movements, each of which is an Opportunity. Thus, unless specifically stated otherwise in the rules, each action can contain an infinite number of opportunities, so any action other than movement (which is specifically singled out in the rules) will allow a character with combat reflexes to dump all his aoo's into one target for one action.
Happy?
However, once bad guy Bobo has taken an attack of opportunity for a ranged attack (roll) in a round, he cannot take another.So if three archers all fired point blank at poor Bobo he could not, even with his combat reflexes feat and high dex, make an AOO at each of them?
I made it clearer later on ("He may do it for someone else"). I meant that Bobo cannot take an AoO for a ranged attack roll for THAT ONE opponent anymore after he has taken it. He can take a ranged attack roll AoO for another one that round with combat reflexes :-)
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Some stuff
Full attacks are NOT simultaneous. Even as non-mechanics go.
An archer firing 3 arrows is not notching them all at once and firing them all out of his bow. Are you really trying to say that's what the rules are trying to represent??? The barbarian is not stabbing with his longspear both in front AND behind him at the same time!
The point I am trying to make is that a Full Attack is a single "Action", and like was mentioned with the Ranged Spells, it consists of other partial actions. In that sense, yes, they are all happening together, just as your character is "facing" all directions simultaniously. So no, they are ot firing 3 arrows from their bow (except as I'm mentioned the few exceptions when that is exactly what they are doing, ha ha ha), but rather they are all taking place together within that 1 Action Full Attack. See Manyshot.
In-game the characters react to the after-effects of their first attack before making their second.
Sorry, you are very wrong here. You're confusing a lot of things here.
Scorching ray, like magic missile, is fired all at once. Both mechanically and non-mechanically. The caster picks all the targets before the results are determined. This is different from a full attack action where the attacker makes decisions after each attack (including converting the action to a standard attack action and walking away)!
I disagree. You disagree with that. I disagree with that. But besides you insisting I am wrong, (and I might be in this one "Scourching Ray = not multiple attacks" case), I don't really see any reasons or rules explaining how I'm wrong and how you are right? It seems more like how your comfortible rationalizing the rules and how you play the game, not how they actually work, even if it turns out that that is how they actually work, (which is possible, and I disagree). But, since Scourching Ray isn't the issue, lets go with an unnamed ranged touch ray-like spell that allows you to make as many ranged attacks as your BaB normally allows for. For the sake of arguement, you have 4 rays to fire, and they do happen one after another, but all must be used at the end of casting the spell that round. The issue is if each of those rays would count as a seperate opportiunity or not.
I disagree. You disagree with that. I disagree with that. But besides you insisting I am wrong, (and I might be in this one "Scourching Ray = not multiple attacks" case), I don't really see any reasons or rules explaining how I'm wrong and how you are right?...In-game the characters react to the after-effects of their first attack before making their second.
Sorry, you are very wrong here. You're confusing a lot of things here.
Scorching ray, like magic missile, is fired all at once. Both mechanically and non-mechanically. The caster picks all the targets before the results are determined. This is different from a full attack action where the attacker makes decisions after each attack (including converting the action to a standard attack action and walking away)!
Are you maybe talking about different things? Scorching ray definition:
School evocation [fire]; Level magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECTRange close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
So you
- pick your targets when you cast the spell- all (up to three) rays are fired at once
- you must make an attack roll for each ray (so some may miss or score critically)
- so you cannot wait and see what happens after one of your rays hit, then shoot another one.
So James is right. But since you're so insisting that he is wrong, even when the things you apparently refer to are stated explicitely to be different, do you maybe mean to say something else here? :-)
But, since Scourching Ray isn't the issue, lets go with an unnamed ranged touch ray-like spell that allows you to make as many ranged attacks as your BaB normally allows for. For the sake of arguement, you have 4 rays to fire, and they do happen one after another, but all must be used at the end of casting the spell that round. The issue is if each of those rays would count as a seperate opportiunity or not.
They would count as different opportunities, but the same opponent who threatens you would only be allowed to take it once for you. So he could - combat reflexes and dex assumed - attack *you*
- once in total for a ranged attack roll, be it the third, second, first or whatever ray you fire while threatened. He might even forfeit that AoO to conserve his ability to take AoOs for different AoOs...- once for casting while being threatened (if you do not cast defensively)
- once if you move more than 5ft (or are in difficult terrain etc.)
That opponent can still take an AoO for a ranged attack roll your theoretical buddy who is ajacent to your character and also casts the same spell (same stuff as above)... :-)
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Again, gotta say that I'm with DA here. You're making multiple ranged attack rolls. That's multiple ranged touch attacks (1 per ray) which should equal multiple AoOs per the rules regarding ranged touch spells.
If you're (not aimed at anyone in particular) so adamant that they (all the rays) all occur at the same time and are not sequential then all the AoOs should resolve before any of the rays go off but this would not change the number of AoOs that are provoked. It has always been my personal position that provocations equal opportunity.
Again, gotta say that I'm with DA here. You're making multiple ranged attack rolls. That's multiple ranged touch attacks (1 per ray) which should equal multiple AoOs per the rules regarding ranged touch spells.
If you're (not aimed at anyone in particular) so adamant that they (all the rays) all occur at the same time and are not sequential then all the AoOs should resolve before any of the rays go off but this would not change the number of AoOs that are provoked. It has always been my personal position that provocations equal opportunity.
We agree here, actually :-)
It seems that the only thing you are overlooking - or disagreeing with - is that, yes, you provoke once per attack roll, so that's thrice for a scorching ray of sufficient CL. But an opponent threatening you can only take that attack once, not thrice, for you - that is the key :-)
It has always been my personal position that provocations equal opportunity.
It seems that the only thing you are overlooking - or disagreeing with - is that, yes, you provoke once per attack roll, so that's thrice for a scorching ray of sufficient CL. But an opponent threatening you can only take that attack once, not thrice, for you - that is the key :-)
So... We agree except at the conclusion of the debate, which is the main point. Hence, we don't agree. As I said, it would provoke multiple times, from the same opponent and if that opponent had combat reflexes they could use any/all of their AoO attempts.
Again, I see each new provocation as a new opportunity.
Based on the following from the combat chapter about Attacks of Opportunity:
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).
It has always been my personal position that provocations equal opportunity.It seems that the only thing you are overlooking - or disagreeing with - is that, yes, you provoke once per attack roll, so that's thrice for a scorching ray of sufficient CL. But an opponent threatening you can only take that attack once, not thrice, for you - that is the key :-)So... We agree except at the conclusion of the debate, which is the main point. Hence, we don't agree. As I said, it would provoke multiple times, from the same opponent and if that opponent had combat reflexes they could use any/all of their AoO attempts.
Again, I see each new provocation as a new opportunity.
Based on the following from the combat chapter about Attacks of Opportunity:
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).
Well then we apparently disagree, particularly regarding the interpretation of the last paragraph :-)
That's what simultaneously means after all!
I certainly disagree with you that this simultaneous act can involve one lowering their defenses on multiple occasions.
Why? Because there's only one occasion here! You could claim that there are multiple provocations, but you really can't argue with any reason that there are multiple opportunities that can be sequentially taken advantage of as it all happens at once.
Likewise using TK would not involve upto 15 AOOs for one amount of concentration. Sorry, no. You don't get to simultaneously make all of those attacks as much as Beckett would like to claim.
-James
Sorry James but just because you roll 50 ranged attacks at the same time doesn't negate the rules that you provoke 50 different times (once each time you make a ranged touch) and all the attacks resolve before your rays. The rules are clear that you may invoke combat reflexes each time you are provoked.
You can't have simultaneous work both ways. I get 50 and you get 1. That's not simultaneous at all. I should be able to react just as "simultaneously" and respond to your 50 provocations in kind.
I find it odd that you would stand firm on this timing issue because the entire round is supposed to happen simultaneously (in game time) across all characters however we use a turn structure to visualize this, it is an abstraction so the system can function. Just like how 50 rays/ranged attacks are abstracted and fluffed to be simultaneous.
I find it odd that you would stand firm on this timing issue because the entire round is supposed to happen simultaneously (in game time) across all characters however we use a turn structure to visualize this, it is an abstraction so the system can function. Just like how 50 rays/ranged attacks are abstracted and fluffed to be simultaneous.
You can't have simultaneous work both ways. I get 50 and you get 1. That's not simultaneous at all. I should be able to react just as "simultaneously" and respond to your 50 provocations in kind.You certainly can have simultaneous work both ways.. in fact that's only fair.. the definition of the word doesn't change with the subject!
Sadly no you can't swing a sword at multiple people or at the same person multiple times at once that you are claiming that you can speaks to your position.
What does an AOO represent and what does it mean? It's right in the attack of opportunity section. The opponent lets down their guard or leaves themselves exposed.
The caster of a ranged attack spell does just this. However they do not do so multiple times in succession so there is no way for them to be lowering their guard multiple times in succession.
-James
I admire your attempt to conquer nonsense with sense, but you are not going to convince people who want multiple aoo's. Like I said, infinite aoo's per action, because every action is made up of nearly infinite muscle micro-movements. The rules can not compete with our imaginations.
Question: can a character make simultaneous attacks of opportunity due to provocations that occur at precisely the same moment of time?
If the answer is no, then scorching ray, which fires three (3) rays (at sufficient caster level) simultaneously will only provoke once for casting and once for making a ranged attack.
If the answer is yes, could someone then explain to me how you can make three melee attacks simultaneously?
A full-attack (such as an archer of sufficient BAB) firing four arrows is not, by defination, simultaneous. Each attack occurs in sequence over an undetermined, but finite period of time. Each ranged attack that the archer makes does not require that the character or creature threatening him be made simultaneously because his own attacks are not made in the same exact instant.
Casting a spell (without casting it defensively) provokes an attack of opportunity. We all agree on that. Making a ranged attack (touch or otherwise) provokes an attack of opportunity. We agree here as well.
The attack of opportunity that results from the provaction of casting the spell occurs before the spell itself is cast, right? If this attack of opportunity is successful, the spell immediately ends and the memorized spell or spell slot is lost.
Only after the spell has been cast does the caster make a ranged touch attack (in the case of scorching ray), which also provokes an attack of opportunity. This attack occurs before the attack is made, but if successful does not prevent the attack (only inflicting enough damage to drop the caster to 0 hit points or below will stop the attack).
A character or creature does not gain three attacks if the caster whom he threatens cast scorching ray (if the caster has a caster level sufficient to do so) because all three rays are brought into existence simultaneously, and it is considered ONE (1) provoking action.
In my own opinion. But we all know what that is worth.
Master Arminas
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I admire your attempt to conquer nonsense with sense, but you are not going to convince people who want multiple aoo's.
It might make sense to you, but that doesn't make your arguements less nonsense. The fact that people want more AoO is not the reason peole are disagreewing with you two. It's that your basically saying you can't see it being done any other way, based ona fraction of a sentence, (whose other part strongly suggests you are wrong) without taking into acount the rest of the rules of the game. Neither Meb or James are argueing logic against a crazy mob here, just opinion against other opinion.
Question: can a character make simultaneous attacks of opportunity due to provocations that occur at precisely the same moment of time?
the answer is yes. There are no grounds (rules mechanic wise) to make an argument that two simultaneous provocations cannot be responded to each with an AoO. Time and "timing" get thrown out to a certain extent because of the AoO.
The bottom-line is that the rules state you may respond to each provocation with an AoO - simultaneously occuring or otherwise. the rules do not make these distinctions, so I hardly see the justification in fabricating them.
This is all way off topic though because a ranged touch spell provokes twice from one simultaneous action. *shock* so we should not be surprised to see it extrapolated further.
I'm sorry, that was harsh, and insensitive (what I said, not what you said in reply.)
It's that my reading of the rules is a single AoO from a ranged touch attack spell, and now you are not just talking two, but up to 4. Maybe more if there is a spell like scorching ray, but more rays (maybe prismatic spray?) an even larger number of AoO's for a single casting of a spell.
It seems like there is a desire to escalate what is already a very cool and useful feat. (Combat Reflexes, of course.) I just don't see the need, it is already one of my go-to feats if I play a character with any useful amount of dex.
Question: can a character make simultaneous attacks of opportunity due to provocations that occur at precisely the same moment of time?the answer is yes. There are no grounds (rules mechanic wise) to make an argument that two simultaneous provocations cannot be responded to each with an AoO. Time and "timing" get thrown out to a certain extent because of the AoO.
The bottom-line is that the rules state you may respond to each provocation with an AoO - simultaneously occuring or otherwise. the rules do not make these distinctions, so I hardly see the justification in fabricating them.
This is all way off topic though because a ranged touch spell provokes twice from one simultaneous action. *shock* so we should not be surprised to see it extrapolated further.
Negative. The two provoking opportunities are not simultaneous. Casting a spell has a TIME associated with it (look at the spell description under casting time). Swift action spells (including those with the Quicken Spell meta-magic feat) do not provoke attacks of opportunity when cast. Casting the spell (non-defensively) provokes an AoO, which takes place then and there. Only after the spell has been cast is there a call to make a ranged attack, even though it is part of the same action as casting the spell. That ranged attack provokes.
The two are one action, but are not simultaneous.
Master Arminas
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Agree with all but the very last part. Both Scorching Ray and a Full Atack with a bow, (minus Rapid Shot), all provoke and would draw seperate AoO as different opportunities...Ranged touch spell casting provokes twice:
- once for casting - can be avoided by casting defensively
- once for making a ranged attack when threatenedEach creature threatening you (with AoO left) gets those two attacks if it has combat reflexes and a high enough dex. Otherwise it's only once, and they may choose in iteration which attack they take.
Note that because of the rule that you cannot take an AoO for the same type of activity more than once if you threaten someone, scorching ray provokes up to thrice, but you can only take the AoO once for all ranged attacks (same as with a bow) :-)
I disagree here.
To me it's quite simple: Ranged attack roll -> Attack of Opportunity.
However, once bad guy Bobo has taken an attack of opportunity for a ranged attack (roll) in a round, he cannot take another. So your scorching ray provokes up to thrice, your bow also may provoke multiple times - but Bobo may only attack you once for one of those attacks in a round. Might be the first ranged attack roll, or the second, or the third... Does not matter. He may only do it for you once. He may do it with someone else, though. And he may still attack you for other AoO, like not casting defensively or moving more than 5 ft out of your threatened area etc. :-)
Always provided Bobo has combat reflexes and a high enough dex...
Just curious, how would you handle this:
Bob has 4 attacks a round due to high bab.
Fred has combat reflexes and a DEX bonus of +4.
they are within 5' of each other and Fred has a shortsword out and there is an orc 20' away.
Round 1:
(attack 1) Bob fires his bow @ orc
(attack 2) Fires it again @orc
drops bow (free action)
quick draws a dagger (free action)
(attack 3) stabs Fred with the dagger
(attack 4) throws dagger @ orc (since he ran out of arrows).
Where AoO's are provoked by Bob during this round and how many can Fred take?
I believe that Fred would be able to take 3. He would take them on (attack 1), (attack 2), and (attack 4) as these are all different opportunities.
Note: I am not saying that Bob is being smart, only that it could happen.
Just curious, how would you handle this:
Bob has 4 attacks a round due to high bab.
Fred has combat reflexes and a DEX bonus of +4.they are within 5' of each other and Fred has a shortsword out and there is an orc 20' away.
Round 1:
(attack 1) Bob fires his bow @ orc
(attack 2) Fires it again @orc
drops bow (free action)
quick draws a dagger (free action)
(attack 3) stabs Fred with the dagger
(attack 4) throws dagger @ orc (since he ran out of arrows).Where AoO's are provoked by Bob during this round and how many can Fred take?
I believe that Fred would be able to take 3. He would take them on (attack 1), (attack 2), and (attack 4) as these are all different opportunities.
Note: I am not saying that Bob is being smart, only that it could happen.
My ruling :
AoO : Attack 1 or Attack 2 (One type of action, ranged attack with bow), but not both (if he takes it on attack 1, attack 2 is the same action, ranged attack with bow).
AoO : Attack 4 (New type of action, ranged attack with a dagger).
Just curious, how would you handle this:
Bob has 4 attacks a round due to high bab.
Fred has combat reflexes and a DEX bonus of +4.they are within 5' of each other and Fred has a shortsword out and there is an orc 20' away.
Round 1:
(attack 1) Bob fires his bow @ orc
(attack 2) Fires it again @orc
drops bow (free action)
quick draws a dagger (free action)
(attack 3) stabs Fred with the dagger
(attack 4) throws dagger @ orc (since he ran out of arrows).Where AoO's are provoked by Bob during this round and how many can Fred take?
I believe that Fred would be able to take 3. He would take them on (attack 1), (attack 2), and (attack 4) as these are all different opportunities.
Note: I am not saying that Bob is being smart, only that it could happen.
My ruling :
AoO : Attack 1 or Attack 2 (One type of action, ranged attack with bow), but not both (if he takes it on attack 1, attack 2 is the same action, ranged attack with bow).
AoO : Attack 4 (New type of action, ranged attack with a dagger).
Since the table Actions in Combat (scroll down) does not distinguish between shooting and throwing ranged attacks, Fred is allowed to take 1 attack in total either at attack #1, #2 or #4.
Just to ask something I was wondering. For those on the side of scorching ray only allowing one attack of opportunity despite provoking multiple times due to the provocations happening simultaneously do you also rule that all attacks of opportunity for any given opportunity happen simultaneously. That is if one is threatened by say 3 opponents and one provokes all three opponents attacks hit simultaneously.
Yes, all 3 opponents threatening may each take
- 1 attack for the casting (if not cast defensively)- 1 attack for the ranged attack
And the attacks of all opponents would - at each of the above instances - hit simultaneously in theory, according to order of initiative effectively.
So what if Bob attacks twice with a bow, drops it and quickdraws another bow to make his third and fourth attacks? Would it be different from using the same bow four times?
What if he makes one attack with his bow, one unarmed attack (with or without IUS), then another attack with his bow, fourth is unarmed again. Would it be different from attacking twice with the bow, then twice unarmed?
What if he makes a full attack action, using only thrown daggers for all of his four attacks? Would it be different from making a full attack with his bow? Do the dagger attacks count as different actions because they are separated by quickdraw actions?
What if he makes the same combat maneuver (for which he doesn't have the improved feat, so it provokes) with all of his four attacks? Does he only provoke for he first maneuver, because the others are of the same type?
Seriously... Extrapolating from the explicit ruling regarding movement-provoked AoOs that you only provoke once per type of action is really a bit far fetched.
Seriously... Extrapolating from the explicit ruling regarding movement-provoked AoOs that you only provoke once per type of action is really a bit far fetched.
I am not sure where you get that "extrapolating ... movement..." part from. At least what I am referring to is the the first paragraph in the CRB:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.Moving
Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting ActSome actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
And that referenced tables lists in detail the actions that draw individual attacks of opportunities once.
So unless I am misunderstanding your point you are kind of on the wrong track here :-)Regarding your question about the order of the unarmed and ranged attacks:
So what if Bob attacks twice with a bow, drops it and quickdraws another bow to make his third and fourth attacks? Would it be different from using the same bow four times?
No difference. 1 attack at Bob from Fred this round for ranged attack.
What if he makes one attack with his bow, one unarmed attack (with or without IUS), then another attack with his bow, fourth is unarmed again. Would it be different from attacking twice with the bow, then twice unarmed?
You're making this complicated to answer to :-)
bow + unarmed + bow + unarmed: 2 attacks in total, 1 for bow, 1 for unarmed.bow + ius + ius + ius: 1 attack in total for the bow uses.
And the order of the sequence does not matter for AoO. Could matter whether or not the target is dead or not, e.g. because the second arrow killed it before Fred's attack dropped Bob :-)
What if he makes a full attack action, using only thrown daggers for all of his four attacks? Would it be different from making a full attack with his bow? Do the dagger attacks count as different actions because they are separated by quickdraw actions?
- daggers: 1 attack total
- no difference to bow- no, they do not count as different actions. The action is "Attack (ranged)" as listed on the "Actions in Combat" table, just several times.
What if he makes the same combat maneuver with all of his four attacks? Does he only provoke for he first maneuver, because the others are of the same type?
Combat maneuvers are indeed a bit tricky. Is trip different from disarm? Going strictly by the table I judge "no", so Bob provokes (as above) four times, but Fred may only take the AoO once for the "Perform a combat maneuver" action.
And now I've got enough of quoting and dequoting ;-P
Just to ask something I was wondering. For those on the side of scorching ray only allowing one attack of opportunity despite provoking multiple times due to the provocations happening simultaneously do you also rule that all attacks of opportunity for any given opportunity happen simultaneously. That is if one is threatened by say 3 opponents and one provokes all three opponents attacks hit simultaneously.Yes, all 3 opponents threatening may each take
- 1 attack for the casting (if not cast defensively)
- 1 attack for the ranged attack
And the attacks of all opponents would - at each of the above instances - hit simultaneously in theory, according to order of initiative effectively.Hmm to be clear this is considering one and only one provocation. And I am asking the effective result within the framework of the rules as would apply to say an ability that activates when struck or something of the sort.
Now from what you have said I would assume that you mean that all attacks happen perfectly simultaneously with regards to all mechanical aspects of the rules but I am not completely firm on that position since there was lack of clarity with regards to the rest of my question. So I may as well ask for clarification to satisfy my idle curiosity better.
I am not sure - is there a question?
In case it's unclear: For three opponents regarding the ranged attack bit there would be 3 attacks. These are *provoked* at the same time, but the attackers will react *in sequence*. This is due to the mechanics of initiative in a combat round. So it might be that the third opponent actually does not get the chance to take his AoO because the other two already pulverized you :-)