Hi all, I am currently in a pathfinder game and I have been playing a Barbarian recently and we hit Level 7. Its been fun killing stuff and taking the hits, but I feel like my barbarian is going to become boring and not that useful besides just killing stuff. I got DR from the invulnerable archetype, high HPs and some good rage powers like the beast totem. However, I feel like this character isnt going to be used much beside killing stuff.
Therefore, I was wondering can a Switch Hitter Ranger be a good dedicated melee character with his companion, spells and now more skills too? Or should I just stay as my barbarian because its better as the main melee character?
Our group make up is a elf paladin, half-elf rogue/magus, elf wizard, dwarf cleric, a halfling bard, and a human barbarian(me). I don't want to step on other people's shoes, so thats why I havent chosen magus or paladin because we have those classes already.
Thanks for any advice in advance! Happy gaming! :)
If it's an Elven Ranger, then of course he's a switch-hitter.
On topic - stay with the Barbie. You're the front-line, man, they'll always need you.
well, i'm by no means an expert, but here's my thought. You're giving up focus for flexibility, but you seem to be in the mind to try out some flexibility.
A switch-hitter ranger simply can't keep up with a well-built barbarian in melee. So if that's what you're looking to do, you will probably be disappointed.
If you'r really looking to switch up your game a bit -- inject some flexibility and options and bring some new tactics to the table -- then the switch-hitter might be just the thing.
Make sure to alter your play-style accordingly, though. The beauty of the switch-hitter is that he gets to take full attack actions A LOT. Use ranged until ranged doest make sense any more, then insta-switch to your two-hander and go to town on what's left standing.
Play him smart, and keep in mind your options, and you should do fine.
well, i'm by no means an expert, but here's my thought. You're giving up focus for flexibility, but you seem to be in the mind to try out some flexibility.
A switch-hitter ranger simply can't keep up with a well-built barbarian in melee. So if that's what you're looking to do, you will probably be disappointed.
If you'r really looking to switch up your game a bit -- inject some flexibility and options and bring some new tactics to the table -- then the switch-hitter might be just the thing.
Make sure to alter your play-style accordingly, though. The beauty of the switch-hitter is that he gets to take full attack actions A LOT. Use ranged until ranged doest make sense any more, then insta-switch to your two-hander and go to town on what's left standing.
Play him smart, and keep in mind your options, and you should do fine.
Right I understand what you mean. My barbarian is good for damage and thats pretty much it and as well taking hits for the team. So I agree that my focus on being the melee guy would best be with the barbarian. But for flexibility, the Ranger has that because of his options of being ranged or melee, using spells, and his animal companion.
So I guess I need to understand that definitely will be trading off points if I go ranger instead of staying barbarian. I think having more options is good, but giving up the extra power for melee might hurt my team.
Off topic, how would a Dragon Disciple do for a dedicated melee character?
Before you change up you should decide what you want to be able to do in the game. Barbarians do have 4 skill points so you can do more than just hit things.
Before you change up you should decide what you want to be able to do in the game. Barbarians do have 4 skill points so you can do more than just hit things.
Hmmm well I want to be and don't mind being the guy in front fighting and doing the damage. However, I would like to be useful outside of combat and definitely have utilities to use besides my blade.
What do you want to do outside of combat?
What do you want to do outside of combat?
That is a fantastic question sir! lol
I'm honestly not sure, but I don't want to be consider the guy that just attacks and doesnt know anything. Here are my stats.
(25) point buy
Str: 21 (+1 from level, +2 from belt)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
I am glad I have some skills to use, but I feel like that I am only there to just attack things and thats it. I would like to do more than just "survival" and attack. I mean spells would be cool to have, but i know that doesnt make sense to have any this late in the game. So that is why I was considering a Ranger. But who knows what would be the best route.
Also an important question is, where your campaign is going? It looks like your group doesn´t have someone for wilderness and tracking. Fav. enemy, a combat-style feat and fav. terrain are great. How is your group set up for ranged combat ?
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Is this a total rebuild? If not, what is your current barbarian's stats?
A "switch hitter" ranger probably won't do very much for you. Really you'd be better off fighter with some archery feats if you absolutely want to switch hit.
Otherwise get more (and higher level) rage powers. Do the dazzling display / fear rage; it's one of the best "control" effects in the game (DC 23-23 will save @ 9th level or run away in panic).
I am currently playing a switch-hitting ranger, and am 11th level.
In a party consisting of Magus Paladin and Cleric, I often out damage the rest of the party.
The versatility of ranged or melee, gives my character the advantage in most battles.
With a favored enemy at +6 I have zero trouble hitting and do a lot of damage and with Instant Enemy I ensure that any big bad will be nicely handled.
I selected Boon Companion for a tougher animal, favored defense for a nice AC boost and favored critical for a nice boost to threat range.
I will try to post my build later, but I think switch-hitter is a great party asset.
Also an important question is, where your campaign is going? It looks like your group doesn´t have someone for wilderness and tracking. Fav. enemy, a combat-style feat and fav. terrain are great. How is your group set up for ranged combat ?
Well I am not sure, right now we are in a region where undead lords(vampires) have control over villages and we are trying to liberate them. I do the tracking for the group as of now, since I have the highest survival. For ranged, we have the wizard, paladin, and the bard for ranged combat. The pally has high dex and likes using the bow more often.
Is this a total rebuild? If not, what is your current barbarian's stats?
A "switch hitter" ranger probably won't do very much for you. Really you'd be better off fighter with some archery feats if you absolutely want to switch hit.
Otherwise get more (and higher level) rage powers. Do the dazzling display / fear rage; it's one of the best "control" effects in the game (DC 23-23 will save @ 9th level or run away in panic).
Yes this is a total rebuild or actually a new character if I wanted to change into something else. My current stats are posted in the previous posts before, they are my barbarian stats.
Really? fighter? I know the fighter is really good at dishing out damage with its bonuses to weapons and the extra feats help. However, they don't really get skills and don't have versatility like spells. I was thinking the ranger at the time because it can do melee and range, but AS WELL do skills and spells for options for things the character can do.
The intimidate idea for the barbarian sounds interesting, but how would you work that in? I have 7 cha =/.
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It's a 2-feat chain; there's one that adds your Str to your Cha checks; then you get dazzling display. So call it level 11? You can have it partially online @ 10; the skill ranks alone will make you +11 at 10th level, and the DC you need to hit is 10 + Wis + HD, so you will be able to do it "pretty well". Then you get that feat; at a guess will pop your bonus on intimidate to +19 or so, intimidate all. Next round use the rage power to turn that to panicked. It's strong enough to even work on bosses, and DC goes up with level.
I am currently playing a switch-hitting ranger, and am 11th level.
In a party consisting of Magus Paladin and Cleric, I often out damage the rest of the party.
The versatility of ranged or melee, gives my character the advantage in most battles.
With a favored enemy at +6 I have zero trouble hitting and do a lot of damage and with Instant Enemy I ensure that any big bad will be nicely handled.
I selected Boon Companion for a tougher animal, favored defense for a nice AC boost and favored critical for a nice boost to threat range.
I will try to post my build later, but I think switch-hitter is a great party asset.
That sounds pretty awesome. I have been thinking long and hard, but I might stick with my barbarian. However, I do like the options the ranger gives and can do respectable damage for melee and range. However, that +6 sounds awesome but where are you getting a high bonus all the time? are you always fighting your favored enemies? Because that makes sense why you are outdamaging your party members. Sadly, I don't think I will get to that amount because I'm not sure what creatures we will always fight.
Also boon companion does boost your druid level for your animal companion? I thought it was only for multiclass?
Thanks for all the input guys, forgot to mention that. :)
If this is a complete rebuild, meaning you're trashing your Barb and starting with a brand new character, I would absolutely go Zen Archer.
At 3rd level you're a monster. You threaten melee range, you can attack with your bow at melee range and not provoke, and you use WIS instead of DEX to hit, meaning you are much less MAD.
At 6th level you'll get Improved Precise Shot, most have to wait to level 11 to get that feat. Your AC might be a little low, but you can shore that up by taking the Snake Style Feat and adding Skill Focus: Sense Motive (which is also a useful skill out of combat). Diplomacy and Perception are both class skills, are problaby the most useful out of combat skills (Diplomacy is also the new Gather Information).
On top of all that you get a Ki pool and the rest of the monk abilities to add even more flexability to the character.
I have fallen truely, madly, deeply in love with the Zen Archer.
On the other hand, there is quite a bit of hub-bub going on with FoB with devs, but my personal take is, everything stays the same until the devs offical response.
That sounds pretty awesome. I have been thinking long and hard, but I might stick with my barbarian. However, I do like the options the ranger gives and can do respectable damage for melee and range. However, that +6 sounds awesome but where are you getting a high bonus all the time? are you always fighting your favored enemies? Because that makes sense why you are outdamaging your party members. Sadly, I don't think I will get to that amount because I'm not sure what creatures we will always fight.
Also boon companion does boost your druid level for your animal companion? I thought it was only for multiclass?
Thanks for all the input guys, forgot to mention that. :)
As far as Boon Companion goes, SKR clarified it.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level of equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit.
This would make it clearer. And yes, you can take the feat if you're a single-classed ranger. It's actually pretty sweet deal.Currently we don't have a place to post FAQ/update material for books other than the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, so I can't attach this to a permanent FAQ, but consider this an official ruling on this question.
As far as the +6 goes, we do fight a lot of undead but the spell Instant Enemy is fantastic!
School enchantment; Level ranger 3
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature that is not your favored enemy.
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.
It's a 2-feat chain; there's one that adds your Str to your Cha checks; then you get dazzling display. So call it level 11? You can have it partially online @ 10; the skill ranks alone will make you +11 at 10th level, and the DC you need to hit is 10 + Wis + HD, so you will be able to do it "pretty well". Then you get that feat; at a guess will pop your bonus on intimidate to +19 or so, intimidate all. Next round use the rage power to turn that to panicked. It's strong enough to even work on bosses, and DC goes up with level.
Hmmm that sounds really interesting, I might give that to my barbarian. However, I was checking the feat Intimidating Prowess for the Str to Cha for that skill and then Dazzling Display, and I notice it has a prereq of weapon focus. Therefore, I won't get it until lvl 13 at the lastest which is kinda late isnt it? If only I thought of these feats before! Noooo! LOL =/.
Since the whole rest of your party does ranged attacks, I would consider staying with the barbarian. If you take the intimidate/dazzling display/rage panic, you can keep a significant portion of the monsters out of melee with the rest of your party, allowing them to crush at range. Any bad guys that make their save will then get mauled by you. It seems like a strong fit. Look for a circlet of persuasion as a cheap way to boost your cha skills like intimidate.
Hell, use your intimidate to be the party face outside of combat. You'll always be able to negotiate for the best prices on rooms at the inn using only your steely gaze.
Yes i agree that going the intimidate route would be good. However, again like I posted before I would need like three feats for it to be affected and sadly I wanted to get combat reflexes for my 9th feat so it will help my rage power "come and get me". Also for my 11th feat I wanted to get extra rage power to get "flesh wound" since I have DR to mitigate that damage pretty well. What do you guys think? Are those feats worth it compared to the ones I was going to get?
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Versatility is why you have a party.I'd suggest focusing on one combat aspect(melee, ranged, Aoe, ect.) and one non-combat aspect(Typical Rangers would be tracking/identifying monsters, appropriate knowledge +10 will identify most things). A focused character is much more powerful than a versatile one and a versatile party is much more powerful than a focused one.
A melee Ranger, without investing any feats into ranged, is still an effective switch hitter. Instead of using feats for ranged combat, pick up improved will and improved iron will as you're reaching levels where save or die spells become a problem.
I would highly recommend a Ranger(Guide)/Fighter(Two-Handed). You will be dealing devastating DPR while still being versatile in non-combat situations. Being a guide negates worrying about your animal companion becoming a slouch and extends your favored terrain bonus to the entire party. You will also become a "boss" slayer using your favored enemy bonus against the most challenging opponents.
As for stats just swap your Con and Dex. 16 Dex gives you the armor class you need and when you get that mithril full plate armor you can use the entire Dex bonus. Put your favored class bonus into hp.
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Here is a possible build:
Stats:
STR: 21 (with your belt and level boost)
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Talents:
Reactionary (+2 initiative)
Strong in the Faith (+1 Will saves)
Feats:
1st Ranger(Guide): Weapon Focus(Falchion), utility(Iron Will)
2nd Ranger(Guide): Two-Handed Style: Power Attack
3rd Ranger(Guide): Furious Focus
4th Fighter(Two-Handed):utility(Dodge/Toughness)
5th Fighter(Two-Handed):utility(Improved Iron Will/Dodge/Toughness)
6th Fighter(Two-Handed):
7th Fighter(Two-Handed):Vital Strike, Weapon Spec.(Falchion)
From here you can either start alternating between ranger/fighter or just rush to fighter lvl 7 to get back-hand swings. Once you reach fighter lvl 7, you can completely focus on your ranger for the remaining levels.
Items:
Priority placed upon weapon>stat boosting>armor>save boosting
weapon: Falchion with straight enhancements and keen
stat boosting: Belt of Str and get a Headband of Vast Intellect +2 with the skill being Linguistics. You will be able to speak tons of languages and really do have cool RP opportunities
armor: Breastplate until you can afford mithril full plate. straight enhancements until it's more cost effective for ring of protection/amulet of natural armor.
save boosting: cloak or protection
That sounds pretty awesome. I have been thinking long and hard, but I might stick with my barbarian. However, I do like the options the ranger gives and can do respectable damage for melee and range. However, that +6 sounds awesome but where are you getting a high bonus all the time? are you always fighting your favored enemies? Because that makes sense why you are outdamaging your party members. Sadly, I don't think I will get to that amount because I'm not sure what creatures we will always fight.
Also boon companion does boost your druid level for your animal companion? I thought it was only for multiclass?
Thanks for all the input guys, forgot to mention that. :)
As far as Boon Companion goes, SKR clarified it.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level of equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit.
This would make it clearer. And yes, you can take the feat if you're a single-classed ranger. It's actually pretty sweet deal.Currently we don't have a place to post FAQ/update material for books other than the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, so I can't attach this to a permanent FAQ, but consider this an official ruling on this question.
As far as the +6 goes, we do fight a lot of undead but the spell Instant Enemy is fantastic!
** spoiler omitted **...
Thats very cool to hear about Boon Companion feat. I definitely will use it if I went for a Ranger and that spell is very helpful when you need to get that extra damage to the big bad or so forth.
I definitely would consider those options if I played a Ranger, but I am thinking I will stay barbarian for the raw power I have and I don't have to change tactics. However, when I make a ranger I definitely will use the advice you gave me, very helpful, thanks :).
Here is a possible build:
** spoiler omitted **
I notice the previous post and now this build. I must say thats what I was thinking with the ranger, since they get a little more skill points and spells. They are more versatile than the barbarian or fighter, but they don't have that raw power as those classes. So its a give and take kind of deal, but they still do good with melee and range. I would focus on the melee part since I would be the front liner, but I would also have more options and have an animal companion to boot as well.
I like the idea you presented for the ranger and fighter, but fighter to me gives me more power not versatility. I think I would stay full ranger to get the full benefit to skills, spells and the animal companion.
Although in the end I am going to stay barbarian because I think the Hps, DR, and raw damage I do with this character is a good melee character. Also I think I have enough skills to push myself to other directions instead of just "survival". Hopefully lol, thanks again
Even as a barbarian, two level of ranger will give you some benefits.
I'd choose the guide archetype unless one kind of enemy is really prevalent in your campaign.
Doing so will give you 2-4 skill points (negligible), some other class skills (nice mainly for stealth, put a few ranks and you will be able to scout along the main scout. Knowledge dungeoneering is nice too), once per day +2 to hit/damage against one enemy until you kill it (useful for bosses), bonus to fort and reflex saves (about +2 depending on level, very good, but hurt a little will saves, about -0,5), one bonus feat which ignore prerequisites (I'd go with archery and take rapid shot).
Other than that I'd switch con and dex (you can always use more AC).
Doing this will allow you to be about as good as a pure barbarian in melee(once per day, against bosses, you will be better thanks to "ranger focus", the favored enemy version of the guide archetype) ; you will get a boost on reflex and fortitude, with negligible drawbacks in will; you will be able to scout a bit; you will be able to use a bow decently (decent dex, high str and rapid shot make don't make you an archer but they do allow to use a bow considerably better that the average melee guy).
Note that if you want to lose as little level of barbarian as possible you can also opt for a single level in ranger (guide) and still get nice benefits.
Even going for 6 level into ranger is a good choice: the +2 to hit and damage becomes +4 (twice per day); you get 1st level spells (which may be used both for utility and combat); you get another combat style feat (manyshot for the win, with this you will be dealing a lot of damage with your bow: not as much as a dedicated archer but much, much more that the random melee guy with a bow); you get the boost to saves I discussed above; you get a few more skill points. All of this means loosing few hps and rage powers (some of which are extremely good, I know that).
All in all you should be a bit weaker in melee against minions, but against two enemies a day you will be even stronger than you otherwise would.
Even as a barbarian, two level of ranger will give you some benefits.
I'd choose the guide archetype unless one kind of enemy is really prevalent in your campaign.
Doing so will give you 2-4 skill points (negligible), some other class skills (nice mainly for stealth, put a few ranks and you will be able to scout along the main scout. Knowledge dungeoneering is nice too), once per day +2 to hit/damage against one enemy until you kill it (useful for bosses), bonus to fort and reflex saves (about +2 depending on level, very good, but hurt a little will saves, about -0,5), one bonus feat which ignore prerequisites (I'd go with archery and take rapid shot).
Other than that I'd switch con and dex (you can always use more AC).Doing this will allow you to be about as good as a pure barbarian in melee(once per day, against bosses, you will be better thanks to "ranger focus", the favored enemy version of the guide archetype) ; you will get a boost on reflex and fortitude, with negligible drawbacks in will; you will be able to scout a bit; you will be able to use a bow decently (decent dex, high str and rapid shot make don't make you an archer but they do allow to use a bow considerably better that the average melee guy).
Note that if you want to lose as little level of barbarian as possible you can also opt for a single level in ranger (guide) and still get nice benefits.
Even going for 6 level into ranger is a good choice: the +2 to hit and damage becomes +4 (twice per day); you get 1st level spells (which may be used both for utility and combat); you get another combat style feat (manyshot for the win, with this you will be dealing a lot of damage with your bow: not as much as a dedicated archer but much, much more that the random melee guy with a bow); you get the boost to saves I discussed above; you get a few more skill points. All of this means loosing few hps and rage powers (some of which are extremely good, I know that).
All in all you should be a bit weaker in melee against minions, but against...
Hmmm that would be interesting to multiclass into ranger with my barbarian. I agree that the guided archetype is pretty good for doing good damage to the big bad, its like the ranger's version of smite lol.
However, even if I get those skills and it would be nice. I think its not worth it for a couple of levels because I would lose rage powers and I wouldnt get spells or an animal companion. So thats why I was considering of going full ranger or barbarian. Because their abilities really show their weight the longer you are in that class. So thats why I was thinking of staying barbarian because it would be beneficial for my team, but I just need to rework him lol =/.
So what I did consider for what class I am staying as, would be the barbarian. However, I do think I need help reworking him a little. He is meant to be the main melee character of the group. So here is what I have been playing the past levels. If I need to start a new thread, I can do that.
Level 7 Human Barbarian(Invul. Rager) DR:3/-
HP: 79 AC: 20 Ini: +7 Traits: Charming, Veteran of Gorum
Str: 21 (+1 level, +2 from belt)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Feats: Power Attack, Iron Will, Raging Vitality, Improved Initiative(free), Step up, and (Open Slot)
Rage Powers: Lesser Beast Totem, Guarded Life, and Beast Totem.
For future rage powers I was thinking of getting these to help supplement my frontliner approach: Clear Mind, Greater Beast Totem, Flesh Wound, Come and Get Me
For feats for the future I was thinking these: Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Assault
If I wanted to go the intimdation route, how would I approach it. I would need to make room for those feats and sadly one is weapon focus for a prereq and then I would have to make room for the rage powers that benefit from that as well. Can you combine Dazzling Display with Intimadating Glare? Thanks for any advice, because I'm not sure how to make room for these ideas in an optimal way.