Hello all!
As some had read in my inquisitor thread, I am taking Feather domain with an animal companion. (Tiger in this case) AKA big cat. I get him at level 4 but have no idea what feats to take. Here will be the layout:
Level 1 Feat:
1. ? (Light armor proficiency?)
I was thinking Light armor, but it's expensive and only will give him +4 AC at most. Which if he can charge 80 feet a turn and run 160 feet, his mobility should be good enough to run if he needs to. (As he will have very low AC)
(Then at level 5, I will take boon companion, which raises his level by 4. The level 4 ability score increase I'm taking int +1 so that the pet can learn any feat)
Level 5 Feats: (since the jump from level 1 to 5, he gets 2 feats which with the int boost can be anything)
1. ? (precise strike?)
2. ? (step up?)
Now I'm an inquisitor so he could make use of teamwork feats at level 5. (Precise Strike is my level 3 feat, Outflank will be my level 6 feat) However being WAY slower (Tiger can charge 80 feet and make a full-round attack+grab, and run 160 feet) I'm not sure that this is the best option.
I kind of want him to be a spell casters bane, (run really fast and grapple one, making their lives miserable) so I was thinking Step up. But what else? Being able to grapple casters and rake them for heavy damage will be nice. But what feats compliment. Also unsure on the level 1 feat due to having to pick from the animal only feats.
Any thoughts?
How does "boon companion" raise your AC's level by four?
I thought it allowed you to treat your own level as if 4 higher for the purpose of AC abilities up to your total character level which is Inq 5, correct?
So unless you had four class levels other than your five inquisitor levels (meaning you had nine character levels in all) wouldn't "boon companion" be worthless for you?
Boon companion, if I remember correctly, was stated by JJ to allow a ranger to boost the animal companion above the -3 to a max of character level.
Logically it would correlate the same for the animal domain.
So you are saying one feat makes an inquisitor's animal companion the equal of a druid's of the same level? Or a ranger's?
How is that not broken as hell?
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Ask the people who made boon companion or JJ.
Rangers do get reduced animal companions as well.
Honestly I don't think that it's broken. Animal companions can drop from a BBEG sneeze. Spending a feat to add a little survivability to one is perfectly reasonable in my book.
"A little survivability?"
It's FOUR FREAKING LEVELS of survivability from a SINGLE feat. In the example posted above it's a single feat that besides granting four levels of HD, additional tricks and an intelligence bonus, it also grants TWO MORE FEATS!
The wording of the original spell is very clear. If you are a level 9 character with five levels of Inquisitor, then you can boost your animal companion to be as if you were a level 9 inquisitor.
That's somewhat balanced, it basically is allowing your animal companion to remain viable for four levels of a different class.
I'd love to see this officially errata'd instead of some developer making some comment on a message board. I bet that would make some other people at Paizo take a look at it and say "hold on now!"
cause a druids animal companion is far from broken?So you are saying one feat makes an inquisitor's animal companion the equal of a druid's of the same level? Or a ranger's?
How is that not broken as hell?
Erik, if granting four levels to an AC which includes stat boosts, more tricks and potentially TWO MORE FEATS isn't a broken feat for ranger or inquisitor animal companions, then those animal companions themselves are broken in the other direction, meaning they suck so bad that this feat is needed to "fix" them.
If so I would ask the developers to fix the class features. Don't cheese this feat to solve a class design failure.
From boon companion they get 3hd, 3bab, 2 to fort and reflex, 1 to will, 3 skill points, 1 feat, and a small stat and natural armor bonus. I don't know where you're getting the int bonus. The inquisitor in this case gets less of a bonus than that because he's only 3 behind.
Yeah this is a little bit of survivability. If they didn't have such shoddy hd or had a better bab then I could see your point. But as is the animal companion is a mediocre little guy at best. In many ways they are weaker than the animal would be normally if it was not a companion.
Heh.... "A feat which grants four levels of animal companion leveling isn't broken because animal companions suck."
Great.
Using exaggeration to prove your point probably won't work.
Edit: No one said they suck. I distinctly said they were fragile. They aren't glass cannon fragile either.
A feat which grants four levels of animal companion that only applies to a max of character level and is only usable by players either A.Multiclassing or B. Using a substandard animal companion source isn't broken due to its inherent limitations, qualifications, and the minimal damage and survivability increase in comparison to other feats with, and I emphasize with here, similar class restrictions.
Jak, to me this is a binary situation. A feat that grants four levels of AC is either broken because it's four freaking levels of free advancement for an AC from one feat, or else the animal companions NEED that sort of boost to be viable, in which case the feat is a patch on a class design failure.
I don't see how this isn't obvious.
Now, as a druid with an animal companion that I don't think is "fragile" at all, I tend to think that what this feat does is allow players to cheese up an animal companion to match the basic animal companion so they can exploit the rules to gain something else, like domain spells or whatever, without giving up animal companions.
Since that's the typical purpose I've seen stated on threads for taking this feat, then I think that's really what this feat does. It exchanges a single feat slot for one of the druid's core class features.
I think that's broken. But no doubt I'm the only one in the history of PF to think so. Oh well.
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In combat, a Druid's Animal Companion is nice but fragile.
A Ranger's Animal Companion is not supposed to play a part in combat (because the Ranger is already a combat beast), which explains the restricted choices of the Ranger compared to the Druid.
This feat helps you
1) keep a somewhat combat-worthy companion if you are a Druid and multiclass a bit
2) get a somewhat combat-worthy companion if you are a Ranger or similar case
It is a good feat, but I do not think it is broken.
SKR stated in one of the threads i can search for it that yes it worked like this and the only reason it wasn't FAQ'd is that their arent any spots for FAQs on the softcovers.
In combat, a Druid's Animal Companion is nice but fragile.
A Ranger's Animal Companion is not supposed to play a part in combat (because the Ranger is already a combat beast), which explains the restricted choices of the Ranger compared to the Druid.
This feat helps you
1) keep a somewhat combat-worthy companion if you are a Druid and multiclass a bit
2) get a somewhat combat-worthy companion if you are a Ranger or similar caseIt is a good feat, but I do not think it is broken.
Yeah, well if I hadn't seen a boatload of "take domain spells as a druid, then take "boon companion" and you get the same animal companion as if you took it first!" posts I MIGHT believe you. Whatever the purpose of this feat was, (and as I said, AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN I think it's powerful but not broken) allowing it to become "exchange a single feat for a full-blown druid animal companion" is what broke it.
Jak, to me this is a binary situation. A feat that grants four levels of AC is either broken because it's four freaking levels of free advancement for an AC from one feat, or else the animal companions NEED that sort of boost to be viable, in which case the feat is a patch on a class design failure.
I don't see how this isn't obvious.
Now, as a druid with an animal companion that I don't think is "fragile" at all, I tend to think that what this feat does is allow players to cheese up an animal companion to match the basic animal companion so they can exploit the rules to gain something else, like domain spells or whatever, without giving up animal companions.
Since that's the typical purpose I've seen stated on threads for taking this feat, then I think that's really what this feat does. It exchanges a single feat slot for one of the druid's core class features.
I think that's broken. But no doubt I'm the only one in the history of PF to think so. Oh well.
I do agree with you that this feat is EXTREMELY powerful. Since I only have to spend 1 feat as an inquisitor and now get a flanking buddy at my command to destroy my enemies with teamwork feats. VERY powerful for one feat.
And at mid levels, the Tiger actually does very high damage. At level 8 (when he gets improved natural attack (claws)) He will be doing VERY good damage considering.
+11 to hit: Damage (when flanking with me and precise strike), 1d8 +6 +1d6 (bite) 1d8 +6 +1d6 (claw 1) 1d8+6 +1d6 (claw 2), and then grapple and 2d6 +12 +2d6 (rake) every round while the poor creature is grappled.
No glass cannon, but nothing to sneeze at either. Especially considering I took 1 feat to get him this tough. (offensively at least)
Hey, let me ask you this.
What would you think of a single feat that allows a druid with an animal companion to gain a cleric's domain spells?
Q: In the case of a multi-classed druid, it is clear that the level of your companion is boosted up to four levels with a cap of your character level. So a fighter-4/druid-4 would get an 8th level companion. Likewise, a fighter-10/druid-2 is capped with a 6th level companion. The confusion comes with the application of the feat to classes (ranger, paladin, cleric with animal domain, etc) that have a reduced "effective" druid level for their companion. Does this feat boost a single-class ranger's companion to his class level or is the companion still restricted to the ranger's effective druid level (level-3)?
A: (Sean K Reynolds) Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level of equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit.
This would make it clearer. And yes, you can take the feat if you're a single-classed ranger. It's actually pretty sweet deal. Currently we don't have a place to post FAQ/update material for books other than the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, so I can't attach this to a permanent FAQ, but consider this an official ruling on this question. [source]
But on the other hand I agree with the other posts. Animal companions are basically extra damage and extremely fragile. So It REALLY does help their survivability to get this boost. (though I don't know any other domains that would increase my damage by as much as an animal companion)
Freaking? NEED? Cheese up? "But no doubt I'm the only one in the history of PF to think so"? Ah an appeal to emotion argument.
Instead of getting all riled up sit down and do the math and see what it actually gets you in relation to what you're spending. Someone who is getting an animal companion from say a domain slot isn't just spending a feat to get a full animal companion. They are also giving up an 8th level domain power.
Trying to min max dps, or as you put it cheese, would not include getting an animal companion in the first place.
So, Jak, answer my question. Would you be OK with a single feat allowing a druid with an animal companion to gain access to a cleric's domain spells?
And excuse me for indulging in some hyperbole... another unique thing on the interwebz, I'm sure.
That depends does he have a class feature that lets him get a domain at his level -3? If not your question should be would you be okay with a feat that let a druid with an AC have 3 levels of a cleric domain?
Staying out of the OP/not OP feat discussion offtopic sidetrack.
(These are just my personal suggestions and favorites and in no way are intended to be a 'This is the best!' list.)
Light Armor Prof is not bad. Get a (large)Mithril Shirt for the kitty and it can be enchanted up further as needed.
Power Attack will do more damage vs lower AC types.
Eldritch Claws (BAB requirement) gives the AniCom 2 types of DR bypass.
Dodge, or Improved Nat Armor give the AniCom more of an AC boost if desired.
Weapon Focus (Claws or Bite) Claws apply to the normal claws as well as the rake attacks, while Bite will apply to establishing the grab which allows the rake in the first place.
The AniCom will get Large sized, so Step Up and related can be useful if you have lots of open spaces typically, but if not it's less useful.
Toughness gives the AniCom longer staying power.
Save boosters (specifically Iron Will) can keep it from being save-or-suck targetted out of the fight.
To explain WHY I'm getting the companion in the first place is more or less to have a flanking partner 100% of the time. With Teamwork feats and most characters not wanting to get these feats, I get an ally who will take whatever feats I want him to. (some really good considering) Anyways... Back to the topic at hand...
What feats should he get?
I'll excuse you for indulging it as soon as you stop doing it. "another unique thing on the interwebz".
Those aren't even close to the same thing. Let's define some terms here.
Domains give you an extra spell slot per level that must be used on a domain spell. Druids do not have a limited spell list. All animal domain spell are on the druids spell list.
Would I be okay with a druid paying a feat to get an extra spell slot that can only be used on the animal domain spells. Sure no problem.
That depends does he have a class feature that lets him get a domain at his level -3? If not your question should be would you be okay with a feat that let a druid with an AC have 3 levels of a cleric domain?
Hmm.... that's at least a reasonable rebuttal...
What is the trick that lets a druid with cleric domains gain an animal companion that they then boost with "boon companion?" I've seen it cited, but don't remember what it was.
Sorry Ferio for getting off topic. Mythril is your buddy for armor. Consider asking your dm if you can make and or buy some rhino hide armor for your pouncing kitty as it will add an extra 2d6 to the pounce. I'd probably stay away from eldritch claws and just buy an aomf since you'll probably want one anyway. For flanking sets I would focus on the teamwork feats to maximize damage. It would probably help if we saw your character's build.
Sorry Ferio for getting off topic. Mythril is your buddy for armor. Consider asking your dm if you can make and or buy some rhino hide armor for your pouncing kitty as it will add an extra 2d6 to the pounce. I'd probably stay away from eldritch claws and just buy an aomf since you'll probably want one anyway. For flanking sets I would focus on the teamwork feats to maximize damage. It would probably help if we saw your character's build.
Thanks Jak.
First I'm not familiar with all acronyms so aomf is foreign to me.
Second my build is a half-orc inquisitor tank/bully.
God: Mielikki (animal domain and scimitar favored weapon)
Stats:
STR - 18
DEX - 13
CON - 16
INT - 12
WIS - 16
CHA - 10
For my level 1 feat I've chosen Heavy armor Prof. (kind of regret it now from what everyone is saying i could do just fine with medium)
Level 3 I was planning on toughness and precise strike (teamwork)
Level 5 Boon Companion
Level 6 Outflank
Level 7... No idea...
But the thought is to ultimately use magic vestment on my armor and shield, shield of faith for shield as well (shield bonus vs AC bonus so they both should stack) Then judgements for more AC (saves for casters or AC if none) and let my pet and bane makeup for the small damage I will be doing. (making me somewhat more of a threat due to the extra damage.)
Hmm.... that's at least a reasonable rebuttal...
What is the trick that lets a druid with cleric domains gain an animal companion that they then boost with "boon companion?" I've seen it cited, but don't remember what it was.
That would be the animal domain which REALLY sucks for druids, not giving them any spells they wouldn't normaly get(and not even good ones at that) for the ability to speak with animals and an animal companion at level -3.
Thanks Jak.
First I'm not familiar with all acronyms so aomf is foreign to me.
aomf= Amulet Of Mighty Fists
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Well first I'm not a fan of the Tiger as an AC, it's pounce is very nice but I find it's damage output is actually pretty low and improving it to the point where it's relevent in combat is VERY expensive.
Here's the issue, the big cat is dependent on charge to get any damage (he has to charge to pounce) so if anyone ever gets in his way (which they will since his initiative is going to be lower then the average melee PC) or there's difficult terrain he only has a 1D8+5 bite attack to contribute.
On top of all that improving him with the standards feats (improved natural attack, power attack, etc.) only benefit him as if it where a dual wielding rogue (light 1hd weapons) so bleh.
It looks good on paper but in actual play he's less then effective.
Personally I'd say go for the Wolf instead, much better for you.
He takes half as many feats to power up and gets twice as much out of them as the cat.
lets take a 10th level wolf and the 3 main feats it needs, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack and Vital Strike and see what it does on a normal attack.
4D6+13 damage (minimum) on every shot, and a free trip attempt every time. The cat at best can get a grab (only if it hits with the bite BTW) for a grapple penalty (preventing it from full attacking the next round) instead of the uber prone penalty and the goodies that offers.
Trust me, take the wolf give it power attack, improved natural attack, vital strike (and if you have the feat to spare = Multiattack).
That will make your wolf an amazing flank buddy and an even cooler mount.
Regarding the feat/amulet discussion.
The AOMF does not require a +1 bonus before adders. So if you like you can start adding things like acid, holy, etc and skip the initial +1 that weapons need.
You can make up for that with Eldritch Claws which apply Magic and..hmm, either silver or cold iron for DR purposes(i forget which). Not always the best path combo to choose, but viable and useful for some people.
Thanks Jak.
First I'm not familiar with all acronyms so aomf is foreign to me.
Second my build is a half-orc inquisitor tank/bully.
God: Mielikki (animal domain and scimitar favored weapon)
Stats:
STR - 18
DEX - 13
CON - 16
INT - 12
WIS - 16
CHA - 10For my level 1 feat I've chosen Heavy armor Prof. (kind of regret it now from what everyone is saying i could do just fine with medium)
Level 3 I was planning on toughness and precise strike (teamwork)
Level 5 Boon Companion
Level 6 Outflank
Level 7... No idea...
But the thought is to ultimately use magic vestment on my armor and shield, shield of faith for shield as well (shield bonus vs AC bonus so they both should stack) Then judgements for more AC (saves for casters or AC if none) and let my pet and bane makeup for the small damage I will be doing. (making me somewhat more of a threat due to the extra damage.)
Eh I've always liked heavy over medium, if I'm gonna reduce my speed, I might as well get the full effect from it. as for 7th level I would suggest power attack, it's a big bonus to damage even for a one hander and goes well with the +attack bonus judgement
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Well first I'm not a fan of the Tiger as an AC, it's pounce is very nice but I find it's damage output is actually pretty low and improving it to the point where it's relevent in combat is VERY expensive.
Here's the issue, the big cat is dependent on charge to get any damage (he has to charge to pounce) so if anyone ever gets in his way (which they will since his initiative is going to be lower then the average melee PC) or there's difficult terrain he only has a 1D8+5 bite attack to contribute.
On top of all that improving him with the standards feats (improved natural attack, power attack, etc.) only benefit him as if it where a dual wielding rogue (light 1hd weapons) so bleh.
It looks good on paper but in actual play he's less then effective.
Personally I'd say go for the Wolf instead, much better for you.
He takes half as many feats to power up and gets twice as much out of them as the cat.
lets take a 10th level wolf and the 3 main feats it needs, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack and Vital Strike and see what it does on a normal attack.
4D6+13 damage (minimum) on every shot, and a free trip attempt every time. The cat at best can get a grab (only if it hits with the bite BTW) for a grapple penalty (preventing it from full attacking the next round) instead of the uber prone penalty and the goodies that offers.
edit: Also don't bother taking light armor proficiency just stick him in masterwark armor and let him suck up the penalty, it's only a minor penalty to some skills it won't care about anyway.
Regarding the feat/amulet discussion.
The AOMF does not require a +1 bonus before adders. So if you like you can start adding things like acid, holy, etc and skip the initial +1 that weapons need.
You can make up for that with Eldritch Claws which apply Magic and..hmm, either silver or cold iron for DR purposes(i forget which). Not always the best path combo to choose, but viable and useful for some people.
It's silver for eldrich claws I believe. And I'm not sure that you need the +1 on the aomf to get magic damage, or at least I don't think you should. My fire claws look pretty magic to me.=D
That would be the animal domain which REALLY sucks for druids, not giving them any spells they wouldn't normaly get(and not even good ones at that) for the ability to speak with animals and an animal companion at level -3.Hmm.... that's at least a reasonable rebuttal...
What is the trick that lets a druid with cleric domains gain an animal companion that they then boost with "boon companion?" I've seen it cited, but don't remember what it was.
Still, it's a cleric domain and with boon companion you get a fully powered animal companion, so the boon companion feat is essentially the same as a feat that grants animal domain spells to a spellcaster. Would that be an overpowered feat?
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It's silver for eldrich claws I believe. And I'm not sure that you need the +1 on the aomf to get magic damage, or at least I don't think you should. My fire claws look pretty magic to me.=DRegarding the feat/amulet discussion.
The AOMF does not require a +1 bonus before adders. So if you like you can start adding things like acid, holy, etc and skip the initial +1 that weapons need.
You can make up for that with Eldritch Claws which apply Magic and..hmm, either silver or cold iron for DR purposes(i forget which). Not always the best path combo to choose, but viable and useful for some people.
You do need it, the only thing the firey does is allow that energy damage to go. Your regular attacks are still mundane.
Since it looks like you'll be using a scimitar you could go and do a critical set and use seize the moment.
Yeah you'd probably have been good with medium, but I wouldn't worry about it. You can always have a little more ac. If you really wanted to tank you could always grab broken wing gambit as well and use it to snag an extra hit. I'd definitely grab power attack, even with the low bab it won't matter so much with outflank.
I'm also not terribly fond of the tiger companion. Pounce is pretty good and if you can stack enough insert generic 1d6 damage on swing he can get up in damage although all of the extra power attack damage does help.
Well first I'm not a fan of the Tiger as an AC, it's pounce is very nice but I find it's damage output is actually pretty low and improving it to the point where it's relevent in combat is VERY expensive.
Here's the issue, the big cat is dependent on charge to get any damage (he has to charge to pounce) so if anyone ever gets in his way (which they will since his initiative is going to be lower then the average melee PC) or there's difficult terrain he only has a 1D8+5 bite attack to contribute.
On top of all that improving him with the standards feats (improved natural attack, power attack, etc.) only benefit him as if it where a dual wielding rogue (light 1hd weapons) so bleh.
It looks good on paper but in actual play he's less then effective.Personally I'd say go for the Wolf instead, much better for you.
He takes half as many feats to power up and gets twice as much out of them as the cat.
lets take a 10th level wolf and the 3 main feats it needs, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack and Vital Strike and see what it does on a normal attack.
4D6+13 damage (minimum) on every shot, and a free trip attempt every time. The cat at best can get a grab (only if it hits with the bite BTW) for a grapple penalty (preventing it from full attacking the next round) instead of the uber prone penalty and the goodies that offers.edit: Also don't bother taking light armor proficiency just stick him in masterwark armor and let him suck up the penalty, it's only a minor penalty to some skills it won't care about anyway.
Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely check out a wolf pet! Though with a wolf I wouldn't really need precise strike. As that does an extra 1d6 PER hit. So the more attacks, the better precise strike is. I guess tons of AOOs based on the enemy tripping all the time would be a good thing though...
Well first I'm not a fan of the Tiger as an AC, it's pounce is very nice but I find it's damage output is actually pretty low and improving it to the point where it's relevent in combat is VERY expensive.
Here's the issue, the big cat is dependent on charge to get any damage (he has to charge to pounce) so if anyone ever gets in his way (which they will since his initiative is going to be lower then the average melee PC) or there's difficult terrain he only has a 1D8+5 bite attack to contribute.
On top of all that improving him with the standards feats (improved natural attack, power attack, etc.) only benefit him as if it where a dual wielding rogue (light 1hd weapons) so bleh.
It looks good on paper but in actual play he's less then effective.Personally I'd say go for the Wolf instead, much better for you.
He takes half as many feats to power up and gets twice as much out of them as the cat.
lets take a 10th level wolf and the 3 main feats it needs, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack and Vital Strike and see what it does on a normal attack.
4D6+13 damage (minimum) on every shot, and a free trip attempt every time. The cat at best can get a grab (only if it hits with the bite BTW) for a grapple penalty (preventing it from full attacking the next round) instead of the uber prone penalty and the goodies that offers.
Where are you getting that the cats claws are light/secondary? they are primaries, and thus get the one handed -1/+2. And the cat isn't "dependent on charge to get any damage". Sure, if he can't charge he does less damage than the wolf, but the next round when the cat get's a full attack with bite, claw, claw, grapple, rakerake, he's doing a bit more damage than the wolf.
Still, it's a cleric domain and with boon companion you get a fully powered animal companion, so the boon companion feat is essentially the same as a feat that grants animal domain spells to a spellcaster. Would that be an overpowered feat?That would be the animal domain which REALLY sucks for druids, not giving them any spells they wouldn't normaly get(and not even good ones at that) for the ability to speak with animals and an animal companion at level -3.Hmm.... that's at least a reasonable rebuttal...
What is the trick that lets a druid with cleric domains gain an animal companion that they then boost with "boon companion?" I've seen it cited, but don't remember what it was.
For most other domains? Yes. For animal? Not at all, as it's spell are WAY too situational. And as for it's power for a cleric or inq. they are giving up a domain, which is one of the core features for them both, especially the inq. You're giving up awesome domains like luck, travel, liberation, ect and a feat for an animal companion, which I think, while a very good trade, is far from broken.
Keep in mind that you've got share spells with him so many of your boosting spells can also be applied to your partner and with his multiple hits you can add up that damage quite nicely.
Edit: Wrath, Tactical Acumen. Also check out Branded for Retribution if you're planning on going tiger. I'm reasonably certain that branded for retribution would also affect natural weapons, but I'd ask your dm. Shared Judgment also might be worth a look at as well since they do not have to remain next to you after to keep the effect.
A good feat for the tiger might be improved and then greater grapple when you find the feats for him. They require improved unarmed strike, which is useless but oh well, but would net him a further +4 to his grapple check and he could cook off his rakes 2 times in the round after he grapples with greater grapple. Round 1: charge, bite, clawclaw, grab, rakerake. Round 2: Pin, rakerake, damage(bite), rakerake. He even still flanks in a grapple, as he still threatens(just cant take AOOs). Nasty stuff.
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Where are you getting that the cats claws are light/secondary? they are primaries, and thus get the one handed -1/+2. And the cat isn't "dependent on charge to get any damage". Sure, if he can't charge he does less damage than the wolf, but the next round when the cat get's a full attack with bite, claw, claw, grapple, rakerake, he's doing a bit more damage than the wolf.Well first I'm not a fan of the Tiger as an AC, it's pounce is very nice but I find it's damage output is actually pretty low and improving it to the point where it's relevent in combat is VERY expensive.
Here's the issue, the big cat is dependent on charge to get any damage (he has to charge to pounce) so if anyone ever gets in his way (which they will since his initiative is going to be lower then the average melee PC) or there's difficult terrain he only has a 1D8+5 bite attack to contribute.
On top of all that improving him with the standards feats (improved natural attack, power attack, etc.) only benefit him as if it where a dual wielding rogue (light 1hd weapons) so bleh.
It looks good on paper but in actual play he's less then effective.Personally I'd say go for the Wolf instead, much better for you.
He takes half as many feats to power up and gets twice as much out of them as the cat.
lets take a 10th level wolf and the 3 main feats it needs, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack and Vital Strike and see what it does on a normal attack.
4D6+13 damage (minimum) on every shot, and a free trip attempt every time. The cat at best can get a grab (only if it hits with the bite BTW) for a grapple penalty (preventing it from full attacking the next round) instead of the uber prone penalty and the goodies that offers.
Never said it was secondary, merely that it was light which is bad enough. The main advantage of pounce is that it lets you do a full attack in the first round of combat, that's the main draw of the big cat. It's damage from full attacking isn't really that good.
If the big cat hits with every attack it has will max out at 3D6 + 1D8 + 15 for an average of 30pts of damage (41 max) when it can stand and plant and hit with every attack (remember it only gets one rake). Now as every melee player will let you know you are lucky to get to full attack half the time so the Cat will be doing about 15-20 pts of damage a round and significantly less if the target is the mobile type.Also if the cat does decide to grapple it goes down to just 1D8+5 per round if it succeeds on it's grapple check.
The wolf on the other hand will ALWAYS do at least 4D6 +13 (avg 27, max 37) every round (he'll either VS every hit or get his second attack when he gets multiattack). He get's 1.5x str on EVERY hit so his base damage is always going to be higher and he gets -1/+3 damage with power attack which the cat can't match.
The cat has to pounce just to equal the wolf on average damage in the first round and if the target moves 6 feet away the cat's damage goes to crap (1D8+5 + whatever spell you put on him), the wolf just continues hitting that hard no matter what the target does. Also Trip provokes AoO's (try to get up, move, cast, etc) and makes it so easy to hit, grab on the other hand... well grab sucks as a flanking bonus in comparison.
Finally (and this is the best part), Strong Jaw is an insane bonus for the wolf (good for the cat but better for the wolf) kicking it up to 8D6 on every attack every round.
The wolf just has a much higher base damage and needs fewer extras to contribute meaningfully and when you can't take the time to drop buffs on an AC (or don't have the cash to buy all the gear that cat needs) it's no contest.
Now if money and time are no object then yeah the cat will do more damage but how often do you have all the time and money you need to throw on a secondary critter?
Never said it was secondary, merely that it was light which is bad enough. The main advantage of pounce is that it lets you do a full attack in the first round of combat, that's the main draw of the big cat. It's damage from full attacking isn't really that good.
If the big cat hits with every attack it has will max out at 3D6 + 1D8 + 15 for an average of 30pts of damage (41 max) when it can stand and plant and hit with every attack (remember it only gets one rake). Now as every melee player will let you know you are lucky to get to full attack half the time so the Cat will be doing about 15-20 pts of damage a round and significantly less if the target is the mobile type.
Also if the cat does decide to grapple it goes down to just 1D8+5 per round if it succeeds on it's grapple check.
The wolf on the other hand will ALWAYS do at least 4D6 +13 (avg 27, max 37) every round (he'll either VS every hit or get his second attack when he gets multiattack). He get's 1.5x str on EVERY hit so his base damage is always going to be higher and he gets -1/+3 damage with power attack which the cat can't match.The cat has to pounce just to equal the wolf on average damage in the first round and if the target moves 6 feet away the cat's damage goes to crap (1D8+5 + whatever spell you put on him), the wolf just continues hitting that hard no matter what the target does. Also Trip provokes AoO's (try to get up, move, cast, etc) and makes it so easy to hit, grab on the other hand... well grab sucks as a flanking bonus in comparison.
Finally (and this is the best part), Strong Jaw is an insane bonus for the wolf (good for the cat but better for the wolf) kicking it up to 8D6 on every attack every round.
The wolf just has a much higher base damage and needs fewer extras to contribute meaningfully and when you can't take the time to drop buffs on an AC (or don't have the cash to buy all the gear that cat needs) it's no contest.
Now if money and time are no object then yeah the cat will do more damage but how often do you have all the time and money you need to throw on a secondary critter?
My math is not coming out to equal the same as your math. At 10th level With both stat bumps put in the strength and power attacking I have the wolf at 4d6+18 bite (average 32 max 42) and the cat at 1d8/2d6 +12x3 bite/claws(average 43.5 max 52). And why would the cat only get one rake? Now granted I just read it and you can't get them on the round you grapple(that's news to me), you still get 2 of them.
What do you mean 6 feet? the cat's either close enough to it to 5 foot step or it can charge. And you're right, if the cat grapples he doesn't get the full attack, however grapple completely screws a good 3erd of the the enemies you will fight(things with 2 handed weapons and casters mostly). Also if it has greater grapple it can sustain as a move for pin + rakes, and then sustain as a standard for damage + rakes, so even better than a full attack.
Additionally, the big cat gets rakes when pouncing even without the grapple being successful or next round delay.
Now, on a bit of a tangent, i am very pleased that a Multiattack AniCom and a Single Attack AniCom are roughly in the same ballpark with situational differences in usefulness. To me that means they are both solidly viable options and both of you simply have a preference that has been reinforced by your own groups playstyles.
Thanks both of you for the info!
Additionally, the big cat gets rakes when pouncing even without the grapple being successful or next round delay.
Now, on a bit of a tangent, i am very pleased that a Multiattack AniCom and a Single Attack AniCom are roughly in the same ballpark with situational differences in usefulness. To me that means they are both solidly viable options and both of you simply have a preference that has been reinforced by your own groups playstyles.
Thanks both of you for the info!
Oh wow so you do get rakes. I missed that because I didn't look under pounce. Makes him even better at an average of 78.5 and max of 92.
Edit: Though I will say the wolf has a better attack bonus on average. with (probably) weapon focus and the one natural attack grater magic fang it's bound to be.
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My math did not add in the stat bumps to strength since the OP had planned to apply at least one of them somewhere else. If he had applied the other to strength then both AC's would be at 22 strength for a net bonus of +6 to damage. The wolf since it only has one attack would get a +9 to damage from it. Add in the Power attack bonus (+4 for the cat +6 for the wolf) bumping the wolf to 2D6(4d6 when VS) + 15 and the cat stays at 1D8/2D6 +6 str +4 PA since it has more then one attack.
If we assume a standard round where the cat gets all 3 shots and the wolf gets both of his:
Cat is at 4.5 +3.5 +3.5 = 11.5 (rnd to 11) +18 str +12 PA = avg 41
On the rnds when raking = 4.5 + 3.5 = 7 avg + 12 +8 = avg 28
Wolf is at 3.5*4 = 14 +18 str +12 PA = avg 44
If the cat pounced that round then he'd get an extra 3.5 damage and would beat the wolf by exactly 1 point. That's a lot of dice rolling for a single point of average damage.
As for the 6 ft step killing the cats DPR any distance greater then 5 ft and less then 10 requires the cat to make move action to re-engage the target so no full attack and no charge. It's called a dead zone and it frustrates all TWF or high BaB characters to no end.
And finally if you read the rake entry the text says 2 rakes but the format states the entry needs to be like this:
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
Showing that you get 2 rake attacks at +8 to hit.
The Big Cat Animal companion however displays it like this:
Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6).
Showing you only get 1 rake at your normal to hit modifier.
Animal Companions are not Animals, they are a separate type with their own abilities and rules. Most of those rules actually make the AC weaker then an equivalent animal but that's the cost of the hunters bond.