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Clever Explorer (Ex): At 2nd level, an archaeologist gains a bonus equal to half his class level on Disable Device and Perception checks. He can disable intricate and complex devices in half the normal amount of time (minimum 1 round) and open a lock as a standard action. At 6th level, an archaeologist can take 10 on Disable Device checks, even if distracted or endangered, and can disarm magical traps. This ability replaces the versatile performance ability.
I just think this should be FAQ'd since not giving them disable device as a class skill seems strange.
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I just think this should be FAQ'd since not giving them disable device as a class skill seems strange.
It could be intentional, I mean the Sandman Bard gets the very similar Trapfinder while also lacking Disable Device as a class skill. Or someone just forgot that Bards don't get Disable Device as a class skill since they have everything else. Or maybe it realy is in need of errata.
Of course, if using Traits, you can always just grab Vagabond Child and be good.
I think since bards have so many skills it was assumed that they had this one also. I did not know they did not have it until a few minutes ago, and I guess Mikaze did not either.
I think I remember one of the designers (in a thread) saying that this was intentional - so disarming remained a 'rogue' thing (sorta).
IMO its intentional. At first level he is worse than a rogue as he doesn't get the class skill +3 bonus. By level two, he gets +1 from the class ability and then it continues to improved every other level by +1. Basically it makes rogues better early on and rogues better later.
This bard can disable traps, even magical ones so that can't be it. He just does not have it as a class skill meaning he does not get the +3.
edit:It could be intentional, but it is silly to me. Losing that +3 is not going to save the rogue.
I think your looking at it wrong. Its only the +3 class skill bonus. This is eclipsed quicly by the class ability of the archeologist giving +(lvl/2) as a bonus. By 6th level he has gained back the +3 he "lost". By 8th level he has surpassed it. By 20th level he will have +10 to Disable Device and Perception. This is a huge bonus as Perception is the most used skill in the game.
In my opinion it seems an oversight. For the ranger archetypes both Trapper and Urban Ranger get Trapfinding, including the class skill.
If I was to play it that way, without an errata, I would give up another class skill in exchange for it. Given that he looses both bardic performance and versatile performance, it makes sense to me to remove perform as a class skill. A good trade (for someone not needing perform) but there aren't really anything else that makes sense to take out of the archetype.
Unlike the rogue this bonus to perception applies on all perception checks, but then again versatile performance is really good.
I know not all trades will be equal with archetypes, but this one is really questionable.
For the ranger archetypes both Trapper and Urban Ranger get Trapfinding, including the class skill.
But neither of them get the Clever Explorer class feature. This is a powerful class feature.
When I played this archetype, my GM thought that was stupid. Since you lose Versatile Performance, there is really no need for Perform to be a class skill anymore. He just let me switch out Perform for Disable Device. Also, you could take the Vagabond Child trait. That's what I was going to do before he changed it for me.
He also let me add some Ranger spells to my spell list in place of the more obvious Bard spells. It really helped me out since he's an archer and that lets me cast Gravity Bow. =)
It is fully intentional that they do not get it.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4816&page=9?Ultimate-Combat-errata#449
Well, personally I see keeping the perform skills with no use for it as more of an oversite than not including disable device as a class skill. It doesn't need it. In fact, if it had it as a class skill it would be better than rogue at traps in every way. I don't think that was intended. It makes more sense to leave it off the class list to me.
Seriously. I think people are underestimating Clever Explorer.
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For reference, Russ Taylor is the one who wrote the archetype, so what he says is the author's intent. Perhaps Paizo thinks differently and didn't catch it, of course, but until then, we at least know the author's intent.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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For reference, Russ Taylor is the one who wrote the archetype, so what he says is the author's intent. Perhaps Paizo thinks differently and didn't catch it, of course, but until then, we know the intent.
I do have to admit, part of my intent was swayed by not wanting to waste a large block of words on a skill refactor. It was said at the time that it was not kosher to say "archetype loses X as a skill and gains Y", so any change to skills would have required listing the entire skill block.
The wordcount beast strikes again!
I noticed that when I was looking at the class
To hijack this a bit. Is it the same that the Lore Warden Fighter Archetype does not have Acrobatics, yet that have the 11th level ability that lets them make an acrobatics check to avoid a crit? Or has that one been errata'd
Thanx, for the catch, Cheapy! :)
And thank you, Russ, for posting.
Couple of questions if you don't mind:
1. Was it your intent that the archaeologist would eventually be better than a rogue at disable device? I realize that they start off worse by not having it as a class skill but past level 8 they actually end up with a higher bonus than the rogue has due to Clever Explorer.
2. Was giving them perform with no use for it an oversight or was that also intended? If it was intended...why?
Clever Explorer gives the archaeologist a bonus to DD at the same rate that Trapfinding gives the rogue a bonus to DD, so that will never cause the Archaeologist to surpass the rogue. All else being equal, the rogue's raw DD check will always be three ahead due to the class skill bonus. Clever Explorer just keeps pace with the bonus from Trapfinding. At level 8, the Archaeologist gets +4 from it, and the rogue gets +4 from Trapfinding. They're equal - and the rogue has the class skill bonus on top.
Ah, yes. I haven't actually played a trapfinding rogue in Pathfinder yet so I didn't read the class ability to notice that they also got the bonus. Wow, I feel silly now. Scratch #1 and about my last 3 posts then. Well, except that it also applies to perception - the most used skill in the game, especially for trap monkeys.
Still wonder on #2 though.
I would hardly like to speak for Russ, but he did answer question number 2 in a way:
It was said at the time that it was not kosher to say "archetype loses X as a skill and gains Y", so any change to skills would have required listing the entire skill block.
They have tight wordcounts they need to hit, and I surmise from the quoted bit that he didn't want to cut other parts of the archetype to hit that count.
Hm, fair enough. Can we have it be called Perform: Bragging, though?
I prefer Perform(smash in face). I'm more concerned about them not being able to use Silent spell, even though it's fairly divorced (even more so than the base bard!) from the perform skill :p
