I am DMing a Pathfinder game and I'm not very proficient with the system. One of my players is a rogue who picked up the talent that lets him choose a first level spell. He was considering Ray of Enfeeblement but wanted to know if he could get sneack attack damage with it. I said no because while it had an attack roll, it didn't deal damage but was a penalty.
Question 1) Can a rogue get sneack attack damage with Ray of Enfeeblement?
After answering his question I had the random thought
Question 2) "What happens if you crit on a Ray of Enfeeblement attack (and confirm the critical)"
I appreciate any help the more experienced members of the board can give this lowly flame.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
As for sneak attacks, I believe they only apply when you can deal "extra damage," that is, when the attack itself does hit point damage, but there may be a ruling otherwise around the messageboards someone may be able to point you to.
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Paizo never really clarifies the sneak attack/ spell rules so there is a lot of interpretation. If you have access to Complete Arcane they have a good rundown on how to apply sneak attack to spells. The quick and dirty version is that your sneak attack adds to any spell that deals damage but all the damage is *hit point* damage of the same type of the base spell.
Most GMs double the effect on a crit so Ray of Enfeeblement would deal 2*(1d6+CL).
Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't deal damage (it inflicts a penalty) so you can't sneak attack with it.
Edit: @Joanna — Curiously RoE does neither damage or drain. I still think you should double it though.
As Ogre said, RoE provides a penalty, not damage. It could be pretty game-breaking to allow it - think about a sneak attack that imposes a str penalty of 5d6 +1. This would be possible at 7th level, and could knock many monsters unconscious even if they make their fortitude save.
My player wasn't wanting the sneak attack damage to be strength penalty. He just wanted to do the Str penalty and some good ol' fashioned damage.
I feel better that some other posters are following the same reasoning I did on the sneack attack.
Are there any other spells that have an attack roll but don't do damage or drain? I realize this is a corner case but was curious how big this particular corner is.
Question 1) Can a rogue get sneack attack damage with Ray of Enfeeblement?
No, the ray deals no damage. You can no more sneak attack with it than you could bestow curse. Nor can you crit with it as it still deals no damage.
-James
This.
Technically you can crit with it and benefit from the effects of, say, Stunning Critical, but, as a crit only doubles damage, and Ray of Enfeeblement deals none, it would have no other effects.
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Regarding Ray of Enfeeblement, I would provide the multiplier for critical hits as a GM, though disallow the sneak attack damage.
Page 184 indicates: "A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit... (Ray of Enfeeblement requires an attack roll) ...If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Appendix 1), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit."
Now it has been pointed out to me that the Strength modification is due to a penalty and neither damage nor drain, cited in the Critical Hits section referenced above. However, the appendix 1 (p.555) lumps The "Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain" together. Further, the section indicates "Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect (I am taking this to mean the spell), these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die."
Since the penalty counts as damage for purposes of the spell and due to a roll being required in order to score the critical, it is my take that this penalty should be doubled.
While I can see the argument for hit point damage being associated with it and while I have yet to find a definition of "precision damage" which I understand sneak attack falls under, items which deal precision damage generally have suggested weapons as the means of their addition. So while I cannot specifically find a reference which disallows it, I am not inclined to believe it is in the spirit of the rules to allow this damage. It is not only an ability which does no hit point damage but which also does not use a weapon as its means of inflicting said damage.