Duelist's Parry vs Disarm / Sunder / Trip.

[InsaneFox]

Alright, from what I understand from reading various threads and, more importantly, the FAQ. Is that when you use a weapon to Disarm/Sunder/Trip, you use the weapon's attack bonus instead of your CMB. Effectively making it the same as an attack.

Using that logic, would a Duelist be able to parry a Disarm/Sunder/Trip when the opponent is using a weapon to do so?

I know RAW it says that you can parry 'attacks'. BUT, this question is arises from other FAQ-allowed issues that aren't RAW. Kind of an "if A=B, and B=C, then A=C" kind of thing.

(If you look at This FAQ Post, for example, we find that it's okay to use Weapon Finesse with Disarm/Sunder/Trip attempts, assuming that the user is using a weapon finessable weapon... and if that's the case, why wouldn't a duelist be able to parry such an attempt? Since the attacker gets to treat it as an attack and whatnot.)

Anyway, food for thought.

[Jiggy]

Maneuvers are, for the most part, considered "attacks". So really, the Duelist could parry any maneuver, not just a D/S/T.

[InsaneFox]

Jiggy wrote:

Maneuvers are, for the most part, considered "attacks". So really, the Duelist could parry any maneuver, not just a D/S/T.

I was led to believe that only the combat maneuvers that specifically stated "as an attack" or "as a part of an attack action" could be considered attacks. Whereas Grapple, a standard action, is strictly considered a combat maneuver.

[Jiggy]

InsaneFox wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Maneuvers are, for the most part, considered "attacks". So really, the Duelist could parry any maneuver, not just a D/S/T.

I was led to believe that only the combat maneuvers that specifically stated "as an attack" or "as a part of an attack action" could be considered attacks. Whereas Grapple, a standard action, is strictly considered a combat maneuver.

Okay, a little more elucidation:

CRB: Combat Maneuvers wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

A combat maneuver check is a subcategory of attack rolls. Anything that applies universally to all your attacks (such as bless, Inspire Courage, flanking, being prone, having the high ground, etc) will also apply to all of your combat maneuvers.

The distinction you're thinking of only pertains to what actions you need to spend to perform the maneuvers. Disarm and Trip can be done any time you would make a normal attack (full-attack sequence, AoO, whatever) regardless of what action it is. Sunder is performed with the "attack action", which is a standard action used to make a single attack and can be modified by certain feats/abilities. Other maneuvers require a standard action.

So you could use an AoO to disarm or trip someone, or spend a standard action to perform a different maneuver. But regardless of which maneuver you use or what action you spend to do it, it's still considered an "attack", and can be parried by an enemy Duelist.

[InsaneFox]

Jiggy wrote:

InsaneFox wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Maneuvers are, for the most part, considered "attacks". So really, the Duelist could parry any maneuver, not just a D/S/T.

I was led to believe that only the combat maneuvers that specifically stated "as an attack" or "as a part of an attack action" could be considered attacks. Whereas Grapple, a standard action, is strictly considered a combat maneuver.

Okay, a little more elucidation:

CRB: Combat Maneuvers wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

A combat maneuver check is a subcategory of attack rolls. Anything that applies universally to all your attacks (such as bless, Inspire Courage, flanking, being prone, having the high ground, etc) will also apply to all of your combat maneuvers.

The distinction you're thinking of only pertains to what actions you need to spend to perform the maneuvers. Disarm and Trip can be done any time you would make a normal attack (full-attack sequence, AoO, whatever) regardless of what action it is. Sunder is performed with the "attack action", which is a standard action used to make a single attack and can be modified by certain feats/abilities. Other maneuvers require a standard action.

So you could use an AoO to disarm or trip someone, or spend a standard action to perform a different maneuver. But regardless of which maneuver you use or what action you spend to do it, it's still considered an "attack", and can be parried by an enemy Duelist.

I see, well I suppose that answer works well enough. (I have a group of players who are extremely retentive about the rules. If something doesn't states specifically that X action is allowable in Y situation, you usually need a federal court order to get them to let you pull it off.

Thank you.