By RAW how can many weak creatures defeat a single strong opponent?


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The Exchange

Eridan wrote:

You can use the SWARM template to create a swarm of any kind of creature.

Some of the rules are confusing but maybe this helps.

this.


The problem with grappling a level 7 fighter lies here

Goblin CMD 12, +5 for being in a grapple is 17, meaning the fighter with (+4 ST, +7 BAB) needs to roll a 6 or better to break the grapple.

with 7 goblins assisting you have a total of +14 (assuming all goblins succeed on the DC10 aid another action) to start a grapple on the fighter (who has a CMD at a minimum of 23 with DEX 14 and possibly higher) meaning the goblins need to roll a 9 or higher to grapple. Also note AID another PROVOKES if you attempt to aid an action that would provoke, meaning with combat reflexes the fighter can hit his dex mod of goblins aiding another and still get 1 attack on the primary grappler (every kill removes their ability to aid)

Not to mention every grapple attempt provokes an attack from the fighter as you dont have improved grapple (requires 2 feats and goblins only have 1 feat till 3HD) and if he kills you all the aid anothers are worthless.

Pretty much if you dont use tactics or items, or advanced goblins, you cannot kill a high level fighter, because goblins cannot perform combat manouvers without provoking.

Grapple, Disarm, Trip they all have the same flaws you are proficent at them so the fighter gets a free hit on every attempt


true... but there are only so many attacks of opportunity and many more goblins.

also... like i said. I am not looking for a guarantee of victory. just the mechanical possibility of it happening. what is that mechanical possibility?

IF the goblins can trip > grapple > pin > tie-up > coup de grace they win no matter what the level of the fighter, mechanically speaking IF they can get the rolls its possible for the hoard of low levels to defeat the high level.

the end.

Sovereign Court

Get an alchemist's fire / acid flask for each goblin.


Nets/Lassos/bolas help as well.


While I appreciate and am very grateful for Pathfinder's way of handling CR/XP (I hated the 3.5 system), which theoretically allows you to build encounters appropriate for the party with "any" combination of monsters, the system rapidly breaks down once you start including things that are 4 or more CRs away from APL (I've found that any monster with a CR outside of APL-1 to APL+3 usually doesn't work out). Given that the playing field is heavily weighted in favor of the PCs, CR < APL breaks down much faster than CR > APL.

As to the original question as to how to mitigate this "feature" (or fault, if you like) of the rule set, I see only a few options:

1. You can't, so don't. Don't include situations where a horde of weak monsters takes on one high-level character.

2. Use a loaded d20 or start fudging the dice rolls. Just be warned that you will start messing with suspension of disbelief (aka ruin the game experience) once the players catch on.

3. Go off the reservation and use an abstract, non-Pathfinder method of resolving the encounter. Take a page from 1st edition-style play where there was much more "role-ing" and far less "rolling".

Shadow Lodge

FuelDrop wrote:
magic missile. wands thereof, en mass. lethal to anyone who doesn't have the spell shield.

oh wow, 16 level 1 evocation wizard goblins, they'll get three magic missiles each if they use their bonded items, assuming the fighter can kill one each round and wins initiative that'll be 189 damage average over the three rounds.

if the fighter has a broach of shielding (although the gobos will break the broach if they try hard enough) or has the shield spell up somehow the gobos could just cast ray of frost at the fighter, +5 touch isn't to bad, and with each one hitting for 1d3+1 they should get him down in the end.

Dark Archive

Except you should go with sorcerers because goblins aren't really into spellbooks.


A level 1 Wizard or Sorcerer can cast True Strike. There is your trip/disarm/dirty trick/initial grapple/sunder right there.

Or hey, even if the level1 Sorcerer Goblins were eating the opportunity attacks for casting in melee, the fighter would not have enough opportunity attacks to stop the casting of True Strike, and will be pinned in no time.

Or if they were lvl 1 Druids then they could summon a bunch of Stirges, which do touch attacks at +7, and do 1 CON of damage. That fighter would be dead in no time..... without even being able to attack a single Goblin...


Even with true strike the fighter will be free on round 2. He either takes a full attack against the goblin or just escapes depending on what weapon he is using.


wraithstrike wrote:
Even with true strike the fighter will be free on round 2. He either takes a full attack against the goblin or just escapes depending on what weapon he is using.

Ahh, of course. Well the disarming/tripping/etc still work. But I think the level 1 Druids might actually be too hard for the fighter. Stirges doing CON damage from touch attacks is pretty ridiculous, even if they only last for one round... a spell that essentially does one CON damage with no save is very powerful. I have heard of 3.5 campaigns where the Tarrasque was easily taken down by an army of level 1 Druid hirelings.... of course this is no longer possible in Pathfinder due to all the Tarrasque's immunities now.


The OP was trying to use the goblin from the bestiary which I think is an expert or warrior. If class levels are added that is a different thing altogether.

PS:If the subject changed from using the bestiary goblin to any goblin with any 1 class level then I apologize.


Michael Foster 989 wrote:
Goblin CMD 12, +5 for being in a grapple is 17, meaning the fighter with (+4 ST, +7 BAB) needs to roll a 6 or better to break the grapple.

You're misunderstanding the basic Grapple rules. Nothing in the rules says the bolded part happens, nothing affects CMD in this way, what the rules actually say is:

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds.
...Which is only an attack bonus (i.e. +CMB) to the 'controller' of the Grapple if their target doesn't escape, and it only applies to Maintains in subsequent rounds (so if you have Greater Grapple and could potentially Initiate and also Maintain a Grapple in one round with a Standard + Move Action, the +5 doesn't apply per RAW since it's still the same round).

...Besides the stuff you describe, masses of Goblins who wish to Grapple a Fighter can also take the approach of NOT using Aid Another to aid each other's CMB/Grapple attack, but of each one in turn just attacking (with Flanking from opposite Goblins) and hoping for a high roll/ Nat 20. If the Fighter smacks them down dead, that just allows another Goblin to step into that square before attempting another Grapple. Once a Grapple is established any more Goblins COULD choose to Aid Another to increase their buddy's CMD (i.e. to prevent the Fighter escaping) or do anything else like Ready Grapple attacks if the Fighter reverses the Grapple and tries to move away, or whatever. Eventually the Fighter will get Pinned, at which point he can be Coup de Graced by everybody threatening him (AFAIK...?) During all of this, even when only Grappled and not Pinned, nobody can do things using 2 hands, so 2-Handed Fighters (and Spell Combat Magus'?) can't utilize their optimized schtick and will likely be effectively reduced to Warriors unless they have invested in 2ndary schticks that are usable when Grappled.

Quote:
also... like i said. I am not looking for a guarantee of victory. just the mechanical possibility of it happening. what is that mechanical possibility?

if you are some obsessive-compulsive numbers freak, you can find the exact mechanical chances for a specific group of opponents given a specific setting and tactics used by them all. anything else, and the mechanical chance is going to vary.

my 2c: get on with playing the game.


acualy i wasnt using ANY goblins i was just using them as an abstract to question the mechanics. however if I was doing some kind of encounters a sufficient amount of shamen and chiefs would greatly effect the battle.

Mike J wrote:


As to the original question as to how to mitigate this "feature" (or fault, if you like) of the rule set, I see only a few options:

1. You can't, so don't. Don't include situations where a horde of weak monsters takes on one high-level character.

2. Use a loaded d20 or start fudging the dice rolls. Just be warned that you will start messing with suspension of disbelief (aka ruin the game experience) once the players catch on.

3. Go off the reservation and use an abstract, non-Pathfinder method of resolving the encounter. Take a page from 1st edition-style play where there was much more "role-ing" and far less "rolling".

ah... relax dude... seriously... it will be ok.

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