Greetings,
I'm currently in the tentative first stages of implementing the pathfinder core rules from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ in the Python programming language. Before I get too deeply into it, I would like to ask some questions of the community and possibly of any wandering Paizo peeps.
Firstly, I am curious as to whether this has been done yet? I've searched a bit, but haven't found any indication that it has. I would be most happy if there turned out to already be an open source project going on somewhere.
Secondly, I am a computer science student and insufferably illiterate in legalese - as far as I understand, anything under the OGL should be fair game for implementing? Are there any pitfalls I'm blundering into that I should know about? I don't plan to copy any setting specific material, only the rules released under the OGL. Also, if it turns out that my implementation is viable to build a game upon, what problems would I run into if I decided to release it "indie" style with regards to the aforementioned OGL? My plan is to stay as faithful to the rules as possible, although I already know of several problems that will require "house rulings".
I will probably come up with more questions in the next few days depending on the answers I get. Also, before anyone get unduly excited I must emphasize that I've barely started and that I'm only one university student who also has to study while doing this :)
If it's a student project unlikely to see the light of day outside of your classmates/teachers, it's probably a worthwhile learning exercise. If it's an indie game for the open markets, you're better off coming up with your own game system, or one that is in fact open-for-use. There are lots of questions/situations similar to yours around on the 'net (and on these forums), and it would seem that the OGL pretty explicitly rules out making digital "adaptations".
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Someone had posted an older link to wizards that was a FAQ about the OGL which (kind of) answered some of these questions.
I know one of the things that was touched on was making sure that everything related to the rule set was open source, too. Not just open source, but "human readable" like as in all descriptions, explanations, etc had to be in text files somewhere.
As far as the other questions, like whether or not you could even commercially release a game system even meeting the other criteria...the internet collectively shrugs its shoulders and suggests you contact an attorney. :)
I don't know if anyone has ever done this with Pathfinder rules, though it has been done with 3.5.
Check out http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/ . They have a game called Knights of the Chalice, which is based on 3.5 rules, and uses the OGL. It is an indie game, and has been around for a number of years. They do not appear the have any legal issues.
They also address changes to the rules to make it work as a crpg.
Mandisa wrote: If it's a student project unlikely to see the light of day outside of your classmates/teachers, it's probably a worthwhile learning exercise. If it's an indie game for the open markets, you're better off coming up with your own game system, or one that is in fact open-for-use. Right now it is a personal pet project that I've wanted to do for a long while, but have been too busy to start. The indie part is an afterthought in the event it actually turns out to be viable as an engine for a game. Otherwise I'll use it as a toolbox for personal gaming use. I'm more interested in implementing Pathfinder than I am in any money actually, but money is nice so I have to ask :)
Grotnar wrote: Check out http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/ . They have a game called Knights of the Chalice, which is based on 3.5 rules, and uses the OGL. It is an indie game, and has been around for a number of years. They do not appear the have any legal issues. Nice, seems like they have a section on OGL for CRPG in their design notes. I'll give that a read through. Like I said before, actually releasing anything commercially is far off into the future for now, this is all just preliminary to know if it is completely out of the question. I'm also going on the idea of simply open sourcing it.
Edit: And I'm now reading the wizards FAQ on the subject. That seems to be answering the commercial side of my questions.
Squeatus wrote: I know one of the things that was touched on was making sure that everything related to the rule set was open source, too. Not just open source, but "human readable" like as in all descriptions, explanations, etc had to be in text files somewhere. So, if the thing was coded in Python and delivered uncompiled, how many beside me would consider that "human readable"? ;)
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The OGL is unlcear in regard to computer games. That's one of the reasons it's not being used in Pathfinder Online.
While Knights of the Chalice is around for a long time, you have to remember that WotC is an American company, and US IP law has that "you have to protect actively your IP" general rule, so you have to calculate the potential risk of being hit with a C&D.
An item of note:
From the OGL FAQ
Quote:
Q: I want to distribute computer software using the OGL. Is that possible?
A: Yes, it's certainly possible. The most significant thing that will impact your effort is that you have to give all the recipients the right to extract and use any Open Game Content you've included in your application, and you have to clearly identify what part of the software is Open Game Content.
One way is to design your application so that all the Open Game Content resides in files that are human-readable (that is, in a format that can be opened and understood by a reasonable person). Another is to have all the data used by the program viewable somehow while the program runs.
Distributing the source code not an acceptable method of compliance. First off, most programming languages are not easy to understand if the user hasnÍt studied the language. Second, the source code is a separate entity from the executable file. The user must have access to the actual Open Content used.
See the Software FAQ for more information.
OGL FAQ
Quote:
Distributing the source code not an acceptable method of compliance. First off, most programming languages are not easy to understand if the user hasnÍt studied the language. Second, the source code is a separate entity from the executable file. The user must have access to the actual Open Content used.
...Depending on how I'm reading that, it is going to be a b&*~~ to design around since it would seem to require a specific approach to making the underlying datastructure.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
FAQs != law.
The fact that somebody says "yes" in a FAQ does not preclude them from saying "no" in a lawsuit.
There's a good reason for the fact that despite the OGL being out there for 12 years, no major OGL-based release was ever made outside of a direct license with WotC.
I merely provided the quote and link as a source of clarification, not as permission (or lack thereof) to do anything.
Part of why there have been few OGL based games is likely for the "making the Open Content" clearly seen. Easy to do in character generators, not so much in game software.
I've just brought and is playing Knights of the Chalice (thanks for the reference, guys!). I have a few gripes with how some of it is implemented, especially since I've had some surprises with how Darkness functions (you're not blind, you can still target creatures with no problem, even shooting from INSIDE a darkness effect at somebody far OUTSIDE it!). Overall fun though, it has the feel and handling of roughly what I was missing in my DnD games.
Right now I'm in thinking mode with regards to the whole OGL thing. As far as I understand the wording, there must be no "hidden data" in the sense of rules for monsters, spells, etc. The way I see that Knights of the Chalice has done this is by making every effect, spell and so on a link to a help page that explains everything down to the very conditions. In essence, if you sat down and read through all the rules and so on, you could be playing Knights of the Chalice PnP. I think this is in the spirit of the OGL and hopefully also RAW (LAW? Law As Written?)
At this point I will probably be holding my cards closed and simply develop the engine as a learning exercise, both of my programming skills, design skills and of my grasp of the rules. If/when it becomes viable to release I'll take more serious steps to evaluate the situation.
You've all been very, very helpful with this. Thank you all very much.
Gorbacz wrote: FAQs != law.
The fact that somebody says "yes" in a FAQ does not preclude them from saying "no" in a lawsuit.
Add to this the fact that WotC controls that FAQ. At their merest whim, it can be changed to say that software implementation of OGL is not allowed.
I had a question like Lazareth has some days ago. I would like to modify/expand an open source browser game to use the OGL Pathfinder rules (as far as possible to "translate" into a browser game) and the content available with the Community Use Policy (like the Inner Sea world map, locations, equipment, spells, ...).
Because I have not found any answer, I have written to Paizo and got a reply:
Quote: So neither license provides access to dialogue, plots, storylines, artwork, or trade dress.
Within those restraints (and the other terms of the OGL and Community Use Policy), there may be room to do what you want to do.
Well, if "human readable" is necessary, the question is, what is "human readable"? As a programmer, the sources are easily to read to me. For "my" browser game, all rules, descriptions, the whole setting is written down on php files. You can read this sources and there is no translation into other (computer) languages.
Have fun, Lazareth Link! I've been thinking about this myself for over a year now, but much more so recently. I'd like to make a game that takes the best parts (in my opinion) of Neverwinter Nights and the old SSI Gold Boxes (e.g., Pool of Radiance) while being 100% true to the Pathfinder rules. It's not intended to be a commercial product - it's just an itch I feel the need to scratch. Now I only need to pick a programming language...
- Niilo
Thanks, I'm having plenty fun. Progress is a bit slow, but that's mostly because I'm juggling study assignments at the same time :P
If you have an itch to scratch, scratch it! ;D although to be honest, I had been meaning to start on this for over 2 years now.
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