By now everyone at my table has purchased a core book and their little eyes get to wondering. They browse magic items for their characters then in-game they try to find them by rolling the 75% chance if its under the city's base value.
Last session I said this stops because your characters wouldn't know these items exsist. They I'm in the wrong what do you say?
I also informed them they could just ask around town for an item that may help them be better protected or one that will make their aim more true then rolling the 75% and if they get it I will tell them in game whats available for purchase.
In game it is hard to separate metaknowledge. How does one ask to upgrade +2 sword to a +3 sword as an example. The same metaknowledge applies to selecting feats.
The way I described it in a similar post was that when the PC's are being trained knowledge of magic item is a part of their study. It is just like a wizard or sorcerer picking spells at level up, or someone in the I.T. field knowing about video cards, cpu's, and so on. If you are going to do something for a living I expect you to know your equipment.
I know most of the magic items in the book, and my life does not even depend on it so I am sure someone who's life is on the line would definitely know them.
I agree with Wraithstrike. In a world with high enough magic that the 75% rule works, then people are going to know their stuff. Being an adventurer is a trade (and while level 1 characters thrust into it may not know much, they'll probably figure out the rules of the trade pretty quickly when their lives depend on it).
I just assume this comes up in "campfire talk" and abstract it. The fighter, I'm sure, asks the wizard, "Hey, there's gotta be some magical items that can keep enemies from hitting me, right?" Or the bard tells a story about a guy with a flaming sword and a belt that made him stronger. The rogue's mentor had stolen some interesting stuff once upon a time, etc.
Now, a party with no magical characters who never really had a chance to learn about being adventurers....they may not know of all the magic items available. But that is rarely the case.
As for numeric enhancements, it's a matter of "Hey, can this enchantment that's on here be made stronger?" If the wizard's not high enough level to do it, then he says "Not by me, though by a more powerful wizard it probably could." It's an easy fix.
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Isn't that what knowledge checks are for? Odds are any caster or bard knows a ton of miscellaneous stories about gadgets and contraptions.
That said, turn the shopping trip into part of the campaign itself, get their roleplay on by introducing characters, tasks, etc. and disrupt their shopping trip once you believe they're "equipped enough". Let them resume once you feel it's time for upgrades.
If you are going to say they don't know about the items then coming up with a way for them to find out about them using knowledge checks should be done.
Edit:My comment was not directed at Norren. He just happened to submit his post 12 seconds before I submitted mine.
% roll to see if it exists in the town, then a gather information check (now diplomacy) to find out where it is sold. Or knowledge local to determine a location likely to sell it. Thats what I used to do before I reworked magic items and wealth completely in my game.
Isn't that what knowledge checks are for? Odds are any caster or bard knows a ton of miscellaneous stories about gadgets and contraptions.
That said, turn the shopping trip into part of the campaign itself, get their roleplay on by introducing characters, tasks, etc. and disrupt their shopping trip once you believe they're "equipped enough". Let them resume once you feel it's time for upgrades.
Exactly this. If they are making their rolls without making any sort of knowledge checks, then yes, it's inappropriate. Certain classes lend themselves to knowing about certain items- Paladins and Dawn Blades come to mind- but if you are not even putting up the pretense of knowledge, then maybe a bit of a wake-up call is needed.
I once heard about a person so wrapped up in the math and meta-game of combat, they told others they couldn't use Lightning Bolt on an enemy a few squares down and over because they "couldn't hit it with a straight shot." The enemy was on open ground, with no cover, and easily within range- their brain was so hard-wired for grids and basic arithmetic that they had become completely divorced from their narrative situation and context.
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This kind of thing is easily handled with roleplay:
The bartender leans across the counter, a twinkle in his eye.
"Ah! You seek the legendary belt of giant strength? I have heard of this wonder! They say that Firbolg the Mighty had such a belt, and with it he slew many foes. Legend has it that Firbolg was buried with his belt in the Catacomb of Kings in the High Reaches. Of course, thos catacombs are now overrun with orcs and even fouler things, so I hear tell..."
Bang! Instant quest, and your PCs get their shopping list item at the end of it.
Well the other thing to think about is the Player's may be meta-gaming, but 'in game' what it breaks down to is shopping. Fighter walks into a merchants shops and looks through his various wares, not really knowing what is there. If you've ever played a fantasy video game, you'll know what I'm talking about. While he's browsing the various items, the merchant is going to be upselling and explaining what each item does.
When it comes to things like +1 vs +2 the description, "the blade of this sword has been magically enhanced to cut sharper than normal" would apply to both enhancement bonuses. However, we know Arcane Sight reveals the highest level spell the caster has available. There very well could be one of those items without stats that reveals the relevant magical powers of different weapons. So you wave this rock over your +1 sword, and it glows faintly, you wave it over the +2 sword, and it glows brighter. Granted, some of the abilities are explained in back story, for instance: "Ah yes, this blade was once the bane of the orcs of Belkzen. Ultor the Mighty slew dozens of orcs with this sword, and he always claimed it seemed eager to kill the pig-faced monsters".
I simply hand waive all this part as my PCs probably could care less, and shopping trips could take forever to role play if that fighter wants that +2 sword, +3 Armor, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor... and I haven't gotten to the wizard or cleric or rogue or monk...
I treat magic items pretty much the same way I treat monsters. Common magic items are definitely something I would expect any reasonably intelligent PC to know about, assuming they were raised and trained in any reasonably sized village or city. But uncommon or rare items I would make them roll a knowledge or religion check, or even spellcraft or use magic device.
If the town is large enough they would likely encounter a magic shop with essentially the core rulebook magic item list displayed, with prices and availability. After all, it pays to advertise.
In game it is hard to separate metaknowledge. How does one ask to upgrade +2 sword to a +3 sword as an example. The same metaknowledge applies to selecting feats.
The way I described it in a similar post was that when the PC's are being trained knowledge of magic item is a part of their study. It is just like a wizard or sorcerer picking spells at level up, or someone in the I.T. field knowing about video cards, cpu's, and so on. If you are going to do something for a living I expect you to know your equipment.
I know most of the magic items in the book, and my life does not even depend on it so I am sure someone who's life is on the line would definitely know them.
But that presumes that there is a "book" in game. A universal listing of what spell effects exist and which ones can be made into rings/potions/etc.
A universal listing of what effects can be applied to weapons, too. If you're aware of flaming burst and shock, it's reasonable to suppose there should be shocking burst, but if not, how can you know to ask for it?
Agree it's adventurers' job to know what kind of tools are out there, but RL doctors don't necessarily immediately know every time a new medicine or device is invented, so IDK that adventurers should either. Or IT professionals in your example...they can't all immediately know everything new.
Especially with some of the "unique" type items, it's not necessarily unreasonable that there's only one in the world. If its used by a subject of story and song (Excalibur, the One Ring, the Staff of Law) then it's reasonable to ask about, I guess("Hey, shopkeeper, do you have Mournblade? No, eh?"), but that wouldn't be everything in the book.
I was talking about the CRB book.I was not assuming books existed in someone's campaign world even though they normally do.
Knowing about new medicine is not the same as not knowing about old medicine. Those magic items are assumed to have been around for a while in most campaigns.Things like artifacts would be so rare that I can understand them not knowing about them, but the other items can easily be fluffed as being known.
In the end though it depends on how common adventurers and magic items are. Golarion has enough people with PC class levels to justify it. Now if PC's are far and few between then I would make a mechanic to make the knowledge available instead of just saying no.
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Nobody is saying have a magic item shop. It is just a matter of it being in the city.
As an example if I want a wand of cure moderate wounds I would roll the percentage chance. If the wand is in town the GM can say I got it from a church.
If the fighter wants a +2 keen longsword maybe a retired adventure had it.
Honestly I have a really hard time magic shops. I just can't fathom any item (besides maybe cure light wound wands) moving fast enough to justify stock piling them. There might be some magical goods around, but its probably not what the adventurer wants.
Modern globalization, industrial production, and economies of scale are probably influencing our thoughts too heavily. Many stories have magic shops operate like antique shops, full of a ton of eclectic and interesting crap that is just as likely to be unidentified and the merchant making something up about it for the customer. Considering that you only really need to sell one item every few years to live much better than any commoner ever will, you can deal in cheap potions or wands for lesser expenses and have a store of more random crap in the back that you sell rarely, but boy is it worth it when you do.
I imagine most magic shops running somewhat like used car dealerships without regulations. Identifying every item is expensive, and most of them you won't use yourself- so don't bother. Sell it to eager adventurers looking for an "upgrade," and if they doubt your integrity, act insulted and shoo them off. City guards, private bodyguards, or even someone like the Thief Guild (who you are probably paying protection money and potions to anyway) can act as your defense against unhappy customers who survive and come back to take you to task. Not that revenge on a con-man merchant isn't a fun mini-story in itself...
Crafting guilds are probably the safe and preferred alternative when they are available, but communication, knowledge, and travel were not as easy and prevalent as they are now.
I don't often let PCs buy anything other than potions, scrolls, and MAYBE the odd wand or two. And these are found mainly at temples and mage-colleges (if any). Given the rarity with which PCs choose Item Creation feats, I don't see any reason to have NPCs pick them up with any frequency, either.
Now, I DO ask players to scribble down a 'wish list' for me, and when I'm stocking dungeons/encounters, I refer to their lists and seed things they're looking for into their adventures. There are some items that aren't available at all, and I'll let players know that that's something they are going to have to make themselves if they really want it. I also have no problem with cohorts of the PCs being craft-oriented, so they can have a source of party-crafted items without having to spend their own feats to do it.
But I just don't cotton to an economy of magic items; they're supposed to be rare finds, not mass-produced.
It really boils down to the sort of atmosphere you want your campaign to have. If you like a low magic campaign where magic items are treasured and hoarded, then magic shops will be rare or will mostly only sell potions. If you like a high magic campaign where magic has been woven into the culture like technology is woven into ours, then magic shops will be common, although there will still only be a few with all the best stuff.
I've run low magic, high magic, virtually non-existent magic and ubiquitous magic campaigns. They all have their place. I tend to prefer the low magic ones because I like my RPGs to have a gritty feel to them, and that's hard to get when every third level character has a ring of protection and a stack of CLW wands stored like kindling in their backpacks...
But they are all still fun. And frankly none is any more "plausible" than the other.
I also have no problem with cohorts of the PCs being craft-oriented, so they can have a source of party-crafted items without having to spend their own feats to do it.
But I just don't cotton to an economy of magic items; they're supposed to be rare finds, not mass-produced.
Odd bit of association there... creating magic items is simple and common enough that a random villager who begins to follow an adventurer is able to learn how to do it at the adventurer's whim, but at the same time rare and difficult enough that nobody has thought to make a living at it and sell it to the public... And the adventurers can't buy magic items, but they just happen to find exactly that special item they always dreamed of...
It's like there's some sort of aura that surrounds the PCs which makes magic just easier to find and make, but as soon as they leave an area, all the magic leaves with them...
It's almost as if there's something super special about those characters compared to every other person in the world.
Weird... very weird.... downright spooky even.
I also have no problem with cohorts of the PCs being craft-oriented, so they can have a source of party-crafted items without having to spend their own feats to do it.
But I just don't cotton to an economy of magic items; they're supposed to be rare finds, not mass-produced.
Odd bit of association there... creating magic items is simple and common enough that a random villager who begins to follow an adventurer is able to learn how to do it at the adventurer's whim, but at the same time rare and difficult enough that nobody has thought to make a living at it and sell it to the public... And the adventurers can't buy magic items, but they just happen to find exactly that special item they always dreamed of...
It's like there's some sort of aura that surrounds the PCs which makes magic just easier to find and make, but as soon as they leave an area, all the magic leaves with them...
It's almost as if there's something super special about those characters compared to every other person in the world.
Weird... very weird.... downright spooky even.
AD, COHORTS are not 'random villagers;' they have PC class levels and everything. You're confusing cohorts with followers.
As for their finding the stuff they want... so? It lets players have items that they like and find useful, increasing their enjoyment, and lets me cut out the 'magic shop' problem that I so dislike. It's easy enough to drop in the stuff they want at appropriate levels, and means I don't have to deal with (a) whiny players or (b) the headache of PCs with a bunch of useless (to them) items, often leading to them trying to establish a magic shop to sell them off...
And unless I missed something, the PCs ARE super special compared to (most) every other person in the world... sorta the POINT of the game. They're heroes, or villains if you like, of SUPERLATIVE PROWESS. Otherwise, 'cleric,' 'fighter,' and 'wizard' would be NPC classes.
I also have no problem with cohorts of the PCs being craft-oriented, so they can have a source of party-crafted items without having to spend their own feats to do it.
But I just don't cotton to an economy of magic items; they're supposed to be rare finds, not mass-produced.
Odd bit of association there... creating magic items is simple and common enough that a random villager who begins to follow an adventurer is able to learn how to do it at the adventurer's whim, but at the same time rare and difficult enough that nobody has thought to make a living at it and sell it to the public... And the adventurers can't buy magic items, but they just happen to find exactly that special item they always dreamed of...
It's like there's some sort of aura that surrounds the PCs which makes magic just easier to find and make, but as soon as they leave an area, all the magic leaves with them...
It's almost as if there's something super special about those characters compared to every other person in the world.
Weird... very weird.... downright spooky even.
To help clear up the association:
Cohorts don't have to be random villagers. They can be just as "Destiny-selected" as the adventurers are. In fact, if the Cohort doesn't have any Commoner, Expert, Warrior or Adept levels, it is strongly implied they are.I don't know if the above poster subscribes to it, but sometimes PCs really do have the Force with them. They are chosen by Fate, and just like the One Ring, things just subtly "happen" around them (whether they want it to or not).
Another possible explanation is a simultaneous desire for in-game believability and a keen awareness of the goals of the meta-game. Since keeping the players happy is the goal of the game, just incorporating their desires into the story through advance prep is an easy method to do so. Part of this is catering to character equipment needs. With creativity and enough planning, you can keep the general feel of magic being rare while making sure that the greatest swordsman in the world is actually getting swords appropriate to the campaign's difficulty (whether that be grim and gritty or fast and furious).
Edit: Oh, hello. Ninja'd.
I think AD's point is that if they are that easy to make they probably should not they be rare.
I think AD's point is that if they are that easy to make they probably should not they be rare.
... Huh? I mean, 'excuse me?'
I don't see something requiring caster level minimums and at least one feat selection as 'easy.'
As Cohorts are supposed to be supporting their PC leaders, having item crafting be part of that support role makes a certain amount of sense. Imo.
My 'rarity' argument is largely based on the rarity of a PC taking the requisite feats for item creation, unless it's handed out as a class feature (i.e. scribe scroll). I extend that reluctance to 'waste' feats to the NPCs. If it isn't worth a PC's time, why would it be worth an NPC's. Cohorts being the obvious exception. And even then, players often want someone more combat-useful... I don't require them to build their cohorts as crafters, just let it be an option.
People seem to be ignoring the obvious here. If the PC 'Cohorts' have item creation feats, when it comes time to retire, do the Cohorts just 'magically' lose all those item creation feats?
The other thing to keep in mind, most NPCs are not, themselves, adventurers. Some people don't gain experience slaying dragons, fighting minotaurs, breaking their legs in traps... instead, they gain their skill and experience, living in a city, doing other things. Sure, you don't have that 'sink or swim' learning curve and instead have to go to school, get a degree, or light a bunch of candles for the temple services, or clean the stables, polish the armor and fix the swords of the local knights etc. but it's safe and you get to stay at home.
I would imagine the 47 year old 12th level wizard that has spent his whole life at a school, teaching magic, working on his next creation, etc. has taken item creation feats. Realistically, the mage's guild, arcane school, local temple, monarch, or other such place or person of authority is going to have a wizard or priest that outfits his champions or heroes of the organization. They'll pay top dollar for the magical items recovered from tombs or be willing to trade it out for other items.
Also, like I mentioned in the beginning, the cohorts that take magic item creation feats are going to be able to set up shop creating items for other adventurers.
Unless, of course, you've modified the world at large so the PCs are the 'only' adventurers and the cohorts are the only cohorts in existence and once they retire, they don't settle down in a city, instead, they ride of into the sunset on their shining white steeds.. and are attacked by X amount of demons where X is one more then is needed to kill all the party members and followers.
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How about, 'after the PCs retire, it doesn't matter?'
Srsly.
Once the campaign is done, worrying about the impact of retirees' cohorts is just a tad OCD.
But, for the drill:
Given the cost in gp to fashion magic items, having the feats is not cart blanche to churn out items. If you're not adventuring, or don't have access to the funds produced by adventuring, you're just not going to be able to make a steady stream of magic items. Other than those lowly potions, scrolls, and occasional wands I mentioned as being purchasable.
It takes a ruler willing to spend hefty percentages of his kingdom's tax income on magic item production to outfit champions/heroes. That kinda specifically ISN'T the normal, nor a function of the 'magic shop' I so despise.
Alitan, your comment about how nothing matters when the PCs retire is precisely illustrating what I am talking about.
Your world is a world that is "in game" obviously created for the PCs, who have special abilities, opportunities and the availability of things nobody else in the world CAN HAVE, even in purely figurative terms.
It's a world that beggars verisimilitude for people who want to pretend that their PCs are part of a vibrant, logically consistent world.
I'm not saying it's "wrong" or anything, I'm just saying that it seems odd to me that someone would complain about how magic item shops don't "fit" in their world, when their world has such obvious metagame aspects that the PCs themselves, if they actually paid attention, would begin to wonder what is so amazingly special about them.
By now everyone at my table has purchased a core book and their little eyes get to wondering. They browse magic items for their characters then in-game they try to find them by rolling the 75% chance if its under the city's base value.
Last session I said this stops because your characters wouldn't know these items exsist. They I'm in the wrong what do you say?
I also informed them they could just ask around town for an item that may help them be better protected or one that will make their aim more true then rolling the 75% and if they get it I will tell them in game whats available for purchase.
1: It's your game, thus you're not 'in the wrong'. If they want to GM, let them. There are ALWAYS more players than Gamemasters.
2: By removing easy access to magic items, you can actually make the game more fun, because it brings it back into your hands...making items available because you deem them necessary for the future. Rumors of a flaming sword that was lost 100 years ago suddenly becomes a quest. Bards become a repertoire of possible quests. In addition, once you remove the magic item economy, players might actually WANT to build a castle again, because that million gold pieces they have laying around isn't doing much else. (Note: once you do this, you need to watch your challenge ratings, as the game was designed with X GP requirements in mind. Also reward them with the items you know they might want anyway.)
3: Knowledge (arcana) becomes a much more useful skill, suddenly Knowledge (History) might become a skill people take if they're not a bard. Identifying items mid-adventure suddenly becomes more interesting as well.
4: Obviously, encountering an opponent with a flaming sword is not only a challenge, but a chance to get said flaming sword, more exciting, especially since getting that sword isn't something you just go to the magic shop for.
5: Creating Magic items should also require a Knowledge (arcana) check...The DMG says that the creation of a magic item requires items worth X number of gold pieces, nothing in there says those items have to be common. So the wizard researched how to create an Acid Burst sword, now to get that green dragon blood. When the players decide they need something, it propels the game forward on it's own.
6: Yes, I'm a proponent of old school gaming style. Some of it definitely should have been removed (level 5 halfling fighter max? no thanks), other stuff shouldn't have been removed.
Alitan, your comment about how nothing matters when the PCs retire is precisely illustrating what I am talking about.
Your world is a world that is "in game" obviously created for the PCs, who have special abilities, opportunities and the availability of things nobody else in the world CAN HAVE, even in purely figurative terms.
It's a world that beggars verisimilitude for people who want to pretend that their PCs are part of a vibrant, logically consistent world.
I'm not saying it's "wrong" or anything, I'm just saying that it seems odd to me that someone would complain about how magic item shops don't "fit" in their world, when their world has such obvious metagame aspects that the PCs themselves, if they actually paid attention, would begin to wonder what is so amazingly special about them.
Eliminating the ubiquitous magic shop, and providing a standard by which PCs can acquire magic items w/o resort to shopping in no way limits magic items to PCs. It just cuts out the, imo, ridiculous expectation that "ton of gold+eventual success on die rolls for shopping=I get to have whatever I want." DESPITE all the 'with GM approval' caveats, using those magic item availability rules produces EXACTLY that attitude.
Obviously, they [PCs] are going to discover magic items in the course of their adventuring; I fail to see how tailoring the sort of items they find to the things the players want to use makes the world their playground. And, as I said, there are some items that they have to undertake to build 'in house,' whether by PC or cohorts.
Likewise, I don't see how eliminating shopping for items makes the world any less vibrant, and would posit that it makes it MORE logically-consistent.
Finally, I don't see how you're getting to the PCs being "magically special" as a result of these alterations. I grant that they ARE special, simply by virtue of their classes and attributes: that's BUILT INTO THE GAME, however, and no doing of mine.
Alitan, whatever. Your PCs shed the ability to make magic items like dandruff which falls on their cohorts who busy themselves making magic items while the rest of the population finds it nearly impossible to craft enough potions or wands to sell at the local fair. At the same time magic items are rare and wondrous, but your PCs somehow manage to trip over them in the dark... ;-)
If you think that makes sense, then fine.
I just think you've applied the nuclear option to the Magic Shop and the result is a world that has more plausibility problems than the Magic shop presents.
But play as you like. I just think it's sort of funny, that's all.
I agree with AD. Unless there are no other adventures in the world or they are very rare within the world's history finding them(magic items) should not be an issue.
You're REALLY pushing things to absurd extremes.
Nobody sells potions or wands at the local fair. In the second place, the local temples and the occasional wizard cabal frown on that sort of thing, in the first place the thieves' guild would steal someone attempting that blind.
It's far more realistic to acknowledge the expense of making magic items and the limited pool of buyers for them makes magic shopping ridiculous.
Magic exists, ergo magical items exist. Most of which are jealously guarded by the current owners. Some of which have been lost in exotic places, etc., leading to adventuring rather than trying to rob the local count or baron.
They [PCs] don't 'trip over them in the dark.' They find them as a result of going out into harm's way and strip them off the bodies of fallen foes in classic methodology.
Your amusement aside, you are SO not going to impress me with 'plausibility problems' for a game based on wizards, magic, dragons, undead, elves, dwarves, etc., etc.
Unless you are playing a low magic style campaign where magic items are extraordinary expensive or legendary items that only a few people have I fell like adventurers have a pretty decent knowledge of magic items. The reason being is that adventuring is their livelihood and have studied how to kill things, survive things, find things, etc. and know the items that assist them in such endeavors (just like you would in any other profession).
Now if the item is somewhat obscure (as in the fluff it only comes from a specific region, society, organization, etc.) then I would force the characters to do some work to find the item in question (either thru side quests, RP research, etc.).
When it comes to relics and artifacts then it depends on the world, the GM and the obscurity of the item in question. If it was used to slay the big bad a hundred years ago then its probably common knowledge vs a relic that hass been hidden away and is always used in secret for the better of existence.
Lastly you could always say your world that, although there are lots of magic items, their creation and effects are closely guarded secrets. Then the players know from the beginning that finding magic items will be more difficult then having a shopping session and getting new gear.
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Any GM trying to control the acquisition of magic items is just fearful of losing control of his game. Such GMs hsould not be GMing to begin with.
It is easy enough to have the player say "I'm looking for a +X bracers of armor," while having his character say "I'm looking for magic to better protect me" and have the two line up be represented by a successful percentile roll of 26% or higher and a little bit of roleplay.
If you can't do this kind of basic abstraction/roleplaying, then maybe this isn'the game for you.
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We handle this issue rather simple in our adventures.
You just talk with the GM. You tell him, this item or this would fit well with your character concept and that you'd like a chance to acquire it.
And unless it is totally unreasonable the GM tries to incorporate the item into the game. Sometimes you even get a modified version with some extra's ;3
... stuff about plausibility in a game with magic stuff..,
Sorry, I am on my phone and can't copy/paste.
Alitan, YOU are the one who said you can't accept magic shops in a world full of magic, so apparently "plausibility problems" are important to you.
Unless RD is right and it truly is all about control.
Have fun, I've played with GMs who play the way you do before, and had fun, so I'm sure your games are fine. I just personally find your approach to be funny, that's all. And I don't mean "funny=odd" I mean "funny=makes me laugh out loud."
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We handle this issue rather simple in our adventures.
You just talk with the GM. You tell him, this item or this would fit well with your character concept and that you'd like a chance to acquire it.
THIS THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. "Talk to the GM/Players" is literally (And I mean LITERALLY literally. Literactually, if you will.) the simple solution to 1/4 maybe a third of the questions that get asked on this forum.
THIS THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. "Talk to the GM/Players" is literally (And I mean LITERALLY literally. Literactually, if you will.) the simple solution to 1/4 maybe a third of the questions that get asked on this forum.We handle this issue rather simple in our adventures.
You just talk with the GM. You tell him, this item or this would fit well with your character concept and that you'd like a chance to acquire it.
Absolutely. It just sort of makes me chuckle when a GM considers his campaign to be one which treats magical items as rare and wonderful things, so rare that they aren't even sold at market, but somehow the PC stumbles across that perfect +3 thundering, keen halberd that perfects their character concept...
Exactly this. If they are making their rolls without making any sort of knowledge checks, then yes, it's inappropriate.
I cannot completely agree with this. Yes, knowing everything about everything is silly. But knowing NOTHING about your craft and the tools used in it is equally silly.
Most RPG game worlds (and golarion is no exeptio) have written, known, ingame histories ranging into multiple thousands of years. In that time the various classes and proffesions will have learned what tools are best or what equipment works well and passed that information down.
Just like a real world soldier will know what weapon or equipment may be best for his mission or task or a real world musician knows what instrument or amplifier or sound board is best or a carpenter knows what tools work well for what job, adventurers or mages or warriors or whatever will have some knowledge of what 'magic items' AKA tools of the trade in a magic rich world, would be good for them to aquire to make their lives and jobs easier.
Magic in most worlds can easily replicate what we commonly do with Science in the real world, including the replication of printed books for example. Why would there NOT be catalogs in a world where magic can do so much so easily?
THIS THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. "Talk to the GM/Players" is literally (And I mean LITERALLY literally. Literactually, if you will.) the simple solution to 1/4 maybe a third of the questions that get asked on this forum.We handle this issue rather simple in our adventures.
You just talk with the GM. You tell him, this item or this would fit well with your character concept and that you'd like a chance to acquire it.
I couldn't agree more. In my game, I regularly discuss the campaign with the DM. He constantly asks me what my character is doing, what I want my character to do, where do I think the game is heading. And I'm sure he does that with the other players as well. It's called an open line of communication and it's essential to long-term enjoyment of the game.
The number of possible magic effects is essentially infinite. That's a long book, and it's pretty tough for even a diligent character to be familiar with all of its contents.
Very true, but the more common magical effects, enhancement bonuses, elemental weapon augmentation, haste effects, bagso of holding/handy haversack, ring of sustenance, boots of the northlands, etc would be simple enough to have in most resource references 'in game'.
The common stuff would be known to the classes that would use them. Warrior types would know that you get your weapons and armor enhanced with the best enchantments you can afford. They would probably know that holy, unholy and elemental affects would be important and make them more effective. They will know the adamantine weapons stand up to abuse like nothing else and are most desirable, etc.
Most of this can be solved by, as many others have said, having a talk with the GM to see how his or her world views magic items and their commonality.
But in Faerun or Golarian for example I would not see item catalogs of common magic items to be out of line. And in worlds like Ebberon I would EXPECT it with their industrial revolution approach to the creation of magically enhanced items.
Any GM trying to control the acquisition of magic items is just fearful of losing control of his game. Such GMs should not be GMing to begin with.
It is easy enough to have the player say "I'm looking for a +X bracers of armor," while having his character say "I'm looking for magic to better protect me" and have the two line up be represented by a successful percentile roll of 26% or higher and a little bit of roleplay.
If you can't do this kind of basic abstraction/roleplaying, then maybe this isn't the game for you.
A GMing controlling the acquisition might be trying to maintain a certain feeling in the game. A level 3 fighter from a farm shouldn't automatically KNOW about a vorpal sword, or a mighty belt of fortitude. Now by the time they're getting to level 12 or 13, they MIGHT know about those items, thus the knowledge roll, unless they've encountered them before. They might have heard Rumors (skill check) also. They might go looking for information (skill check), but to automatically assume the players know everything in the book by name is kind of crazy. Letting the player pick and choose what they want willy nilly is a recipe for losing control of the game very fast, as is "optimization". The two usually go hand in hand by power gamers. So when you have a power gaming miniature tactician in the same group as the role-playing conceptual character, there tends to be a large power gap between the two, and each will dominate one aspect of the game, while the other is bored out of their mind.
Player knowledge versus character knowledge. It is a simple concept.
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I pretty much have always assumed that the player characters have heard about the magic items in the Core book. I mean "Magic" is the technology of the world. As people have already pointed out, I'm sure stories are told in bars, guards in the training yard complain to each other about the rising costs of a good suit of magical armor, and merchants are constantly hawking low end magical wares. In my games its no different than how the average soldier from the real world has a really good working knowledge of exactly whats out there for weapon technology, both practical and theoretical. Now he might never see some new experimental do-hickey, but rumors of its existence will spread through the rank and file like wildfire. And if he has enough money and connections, then he might even be able to buy himself that new bulletproof vest or night vision headset.
Of course this only holds true in mid to high magic campaigns. If your running a low magic campaign, then magic items in general are going to be regulated to myths and legends.
I Agree with Xaaon. In our game there is only a 15% that they even have the item and is they dont you might be able to commission the items creation. but if you make it to easy to get them then you end up going against the characters wallet and not there class. beside you have to remember that not every small village has a magic item factory to make what ever your PC's want
If you need a really good in-game reason for the meta-knowledge, just have an NPC expert who will tell the PCs all about magic items, for a nominal fee each time.
e.g.
"So, Mr. Expert, I'm looking for a way to increase my protection, but I can't be slowed down by heavy armor."
"There are magic rings, my friend, that will see to your needs. Shops in the larger towns hereabouts may have one. Tell them Mr. Expert sent you! Now, that will be 10 GP, please."
Any GM trying to control the acquisition of magic items is just fearful of losing control of his game. Such GMs should not be GMing to begin with.
It is easy enough to have the player say "I'm looking for a +X bracers of armor," while having his character say "I'm looking for magic to better protect me" and have the two line up be represented by a successful percentile roll of 26% or higher and a little bit of roleplay.
If you can't do this kind of basic abstraction/roleplaying, then maybe this isn't the game for you.
A GMing controlling the acquisition might be trying to maintain a certain feeling in the game. A level 3 fighter from a farm shouldn't automatically KNOW about a vorpal sword, or a mighty belt of fortitude. Now by the time they're getting to level 12 or 13, they MIGHT know about those items, thus the knowledge roll, unless they've encountered them before. They might have heard Rumors (skill check) also. They might go looking for information (skill check), but to automatically assume the players know everything in the book by name is kind of crazy. Letting the player pick and choose what they want willy nilly is a recipe for losing control of the game very fast, as is "optimization". The two usually go hand in hand by power gamers. So when you have a power gaming miniature tactician in the same group as the role-playing conceptual character, there tends to be a large power gap between the two, and each will dominate one aspect of the game, while the other is bored out of their mind.
Player knowledge versus character knowledge. It is a simple concept.
Why is a fighter coming from a farm? They generally require actually military type training. Even the warrior NPC class is not going to learn to use all those weapons by sitting on a farm.