I still think using shrink item and a tanglefoot bag is the most straightforward way of doing this - just glue them to 1000 pounds of rock, and call it good.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Quote: ]Where does it say in Pathfinder that a creature cannot fly if they are restricted by heavy/medium armor (Barding and its restrictions only applies to mounts)?
What spell failure chance does a medium load create?
Under the lifting and carrying rules.
Lifting & Carrying wrote: A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action). Added to this rule under the fly skill
fly skill wrote: a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. A creature who's strength is dropped enough (especially a flyer who isn't known for having high strength to begin with) is suddenly completely over-loaded with 1 casting of the OP's ray of enfeeblement (minimum 7 points max 12 or 15 if empowered).
Per the encumbrance rules not only does that target all but +1 from his dexterity bonus (which is what Fly is based on) they also suffer a -6 to all fly checks and that's just if they are carrying less then twice their new maximum load.
Now for any character other then the strength based martial the OP's will drop their strength to a 1 or 2 meaning 21 lbs keeps them from moving at all.
With the sheer number of str 8 casters out there this drops them below 0 and invokes this rule
Hovering is a DC 15 check. The fly spell gives +4+1/2 CL (minimum +2 at level 5). At level 12 that the OP is talking about, this is +10 from the spell, +1 from Dex, -6 from encumbrance, +4 (minimum) from the fly skill that the wizard probably put at least a single point in; this is a total modifier of +9, or a 75% chance to stay aloft, at double maximum load.
Not bad for a single 3-5 level spell (depending on the metamagic).
Ruin their day with a Wall of Force. It is invisible and needs no anchoring points. Slamming head first into a solid surface unprepared ought to be nicely painful.
Wall of Thorns should have language that places at least a portion of the Wall of Thorns in contact with the ground (or a solid surface anyway) but it has no such language stating anything at all about placement (several other Walls spells also have similar issues). Strictly speaking you could form the Wall of Thorns in midair and include creature(s) within the area. Then maybe Wall and entrapped creatures both plummet since all that shrubbery is not anchored to anything. (I'm thinking it needs errata or clarification *shrug*) The spell is shapeable however.
Waves of Fatigue and Waves of Exhaustion (both allow SR but no save). Both cause strength and dexterity penalties and might render continued flying difficult. Especially if stacked with other Str or Dex penalties from other sources (like a Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion or Pyrotechnics).
One or more Immovable Rods (5000gp value each) might help solve any anchoring problems for things like Webs at altitude.
A really large net followed by Shrink Item ... the Item can also be returned to normal (alternately per the spell description) by a command word from the caster no 'tossing onto a solid surface' required.
As mentioned Solid Fog and Acid Fog could both be annoying. Bonus if you can see through the Fog effect and target the foes with ray attacks as rays are unaffected by the Fog. And feel free to place the aforementioned Wall of Force just above the Fog (the idea being, if it wasn't obvious, they avoid the Fog only to hit the Wall ... and then drop into the Fog as a collision after effect if you are lucky).
Kayerloth wrote: Wall of Thorns should have language that places at least a portion of the Wall of Thorns in contact with the ground (or a solid surface anyway) but it has no such language stating anything at all about placement (several other Walls spells also have similar issues). Strictly speaking you could form the Wall of Thorns in midair and include creature(s) within the area. Then maybe Wall and entrapped creatures both plummet since all that shrubbery is not anchored to anything. (I'm thinking it needs errata or clarification *shrug*) The spell is shapeable however. Wall of Thorns is a conjuration and therefore can only be cast onto a surface which is capable of supporting it as per the basic rules on conjuration/summoning in the magic chapter.
Probably the easiest way to force flyers to come to ground is to take some form of cover to prevent them from targetting you with ranged attacks. This can be accomplished by simply running indoors. Various spells will also do it. A large area silent image can prevent them from seeing your party. Wall of Ice or Wall of Force can both be shaped into protective domes.
Alternatively if you have a druid Control Winds can make flying next to impossible. If you are suffering ranged attacks then Fickle Winds will spoil their day significantly.
I've used illusions to restrict flyer's view of the party before. Saved us trouble from a pack of harpies.
Obscuring Mist is a useful for drawing ranged attackers to you. Hide in the cloud until they get closer or go away.
Silent image has worked wonders for me in the past.
I'm not seeing how that Ray of Enfeeblement thing would work. Strength Damage doesn't look to affect carrying capacity or encumbrance unless there's a house rule involved.
"Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks."
Source linky.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm not seeing how that Ray of Enfeeblement thing would work. Strength Damage doesn't look to affect carrying capacity or encumbrance unless there's a house rule involved.
"Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks."
Source linky.
Ray of enfeeblement doesn't do strength damage. It applies a penalty to a targets strength score.
Ray of Enfeeblement wrote: The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. This doesn't use the ability damage/drain rules at all so the restrictions and limitations of that rule don't apply here.
If you read the Ability Score Penalties section just below the Damage section on the page I linked to it refers you back to the Ability Damage section.
"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."
At any rate, the FAQ probably clears this up. It talks about increases, but decreases probably follow the same rules.
Avatar-1 wrote: A lot of these suggestions make my witch quite nervous, even though she uses supernatural flight (no wings, and no dispelling). Reading this thread makes me realize that we got the rules completely wrong for a friend of mine's PC witch who used the flight hex constantly. I never really paid much attention to the flying rules, because I'd never used them for any of my PCs, but now I realize that we pretty much completely ignored them.
I don't remember him ever once making a fly skill check, and he'd constantly start flying, ascend straight up, and hover. It was just assumed that he could do that without rolling, when the straight up ascension and hovering both should have required a roll.
This was for PFS, and I don't remember any GM ever asking for a fly check. I think those rules just aren't very well known. Our group's most common GM when that character was at the table was a rules lawyer (in a good way, mostly), who I would have expected to know those details, and who also would have given him advice on designing the PC. So it's possible she had him max out the fly skill, so he was able to "take 1" and succeed.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fromper wrote: Avatar-1 wrote: A lot of these suggestions make my witch quite nervous, even though she uses supernatural flight (no wings, and no dispelling). Reading this thread makes me realize that we got the rules completely wrong for a friend of mine's PC witch who used the flight hex constantly. I never really paid much attention to the flying rules, because I'd never used them for any of my PCs, but now I realize that we pretty much completely ignored them.
I don't remember him ever once making a fly skill check, and he'd constantly start flying, ascend straight up, and hover. It was just assumed that he could do that without rolling, when the straight up ascension and hovering both should have required a roll.
This was for PFS, and I don't remember any GM ever asking for a fly check. I think those rules just aren't very well known. Our group's most common GM when that character was at the table was a rules lawyer (in a good way, mostly), who I would have expected to know those details, and who also would have given him advice on designing the PC. So it's possible she had him max out the fly skill, so he was able to "take 1" and succeed.
Your Society experience is very different from mine. Every time flight was used, everyone had to make a flight check. The GM actually had me do flight checks to fly my fly speed, straight, no climbs/dives as a single move action (normally does not require a fly check). If I didn't make the Fly check, he ruled I didn't move at all. I pointed him to the relevant rules section after the boss fight though.
But anyway getting back to the dead thread topic...tanglefoot bags for the win. Even if they make the save, being hit by one still pings their Dex score (which affects the Fly skill/AC/Reflex) and -2 on attacks.
Alternatively, just make them come to you. If the fliers cannot hit (cover) or see (concealment) they'll have to come to you. Or you can avoid the fight all together. Though at level 12+ everyone in the party should have flight capability.
andreww wrote: Kayerloth wrote: Wall of Thorns should have language that places at least a portion of the Wall of Thorns in contact with the ground (or a solid surface anyway) but it has no such language stating anything at all about placement (several other Walls spells also have similar issues). Strictly speaking you could form the Wall of Thorns in midair and include creature(s) within the area. Then maybe Wall and entrapped creatures both plummet since all that shrubbery is not anchored to anything. (I'm thinking it needs errata or clarification *shrug*) The spell is shapeable however. Wall of Thorns is a conjuration and therefore can only be cast onto a surface which is capable of supporting it as per the basic rules on conjuration/summoning in the magic chapter.
Probably the easiest way to force flyers to come to ground is to take some form of cover to prevent them from targetting you with ranged attacks. This can be accomplished by simply running indoors. Various spells will also do it. A large area silent image can prevent them from seeing your party. Wall of Ice or Wall of Force can both be shaped into protective domes.
Alternatively if you have a druid Control Winds can make flying next to impossible. If you are suffering ranged attacks then Fickle Winds will spoil their day significantly. Good catch on the Walls of Thorns I totally never made that connection even though I'm aware of rule such as when applied to not summoning creatures airborne who can't fly. Similarly the Wall of Force is neither (S) shapeable nor has text allowing it to form in a hemi-sphere and is an Evocation spell. A Staff of Power can do so and I'm willing to bet a lot of GM's also allow it but per RAW you can't. There was such text in the Wall of Force but it seems to have vanished at some point prior to 3.5E.
I also totally agree unless you have to fight your foe is to relocate to a place of your choosing (or alter the location to your purpose) and make them come to you.
Asumming fly let you levitate whitout actually casting the spell ... +1 player and -1 GM.
Share the love and spread the miracle: cast fly on your ally too.
Nobody notice my link to the Gravity Well spell?
I literally makes flying creatures fall.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Nobody notice my link to the Gravity Well spell?
I literally makes flying creatures fall.
I don't even see that you previously posted on this thread. Are you sure that the server goblins didn't eat your post?
What the bloody hell?
Anyways, here it is, Gravity Well.
First rule of gravity well....
posts get sucked into a gravity well.
I thought that the first rule of gravity well was don't talk about gravity well?
The problem with a Tanglefoot Bag is that the creature only needs to make a DC15 Reflex save to totally avoid the issue, and that's once you hit them with a ranged touch attack on a 10ft range increment..
However, sticking an anvil you've used Shrink Item on into the bag and then throwing it has hilarious comedy value. Especially it the anvil has "ACME" stamped on the side of it...
I stamp acme on my feather token: trees.
Khrysaor wrote: I stamp acme on my feather token: trees. Actually, what would happen if you set off a tree feather token directly under a flying target??
The tree is 60ft high, it's going to have a canopy at least 40ft across…
That has to stuff the flier up a bit, doesn't it??
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Oh feather token tree. How I will never not find a creative use for you.
Someone drops the token and the canopy engulfs the flier. Caster drops a web spell that now has branches to attach to and entangles the flier.
Wood has hardness 5 and 10hp/inch of thickness. Token tree is 5 feet or 60 inches. So 600 hp. Technically you shouldn't have to cut the whole way through but you still have to deal a lot of damage and bring it all down.
Gotta be a faster way to fell a tree. Begin!
Khrysaor wrote: Oh feather token tree. How I will never not find a creative use for you.
Someone drops the token and the canopy engulfs the flier. Caster drops a web spell that now has branches to attach to to entangle the flier.
Hah!
That's class..
Apocryphile wrote: Khrysaor wrote: Oh feather token tree. How I will never not find a creative use for you.
Someone drops the token and the canopy engulfs the flier. Caster drops a web spell that now has branches to attach to to entangle the flier.
Hah!
That's class.. I've got it!
Steps as above followed by a caster dropping an acid pit / hungry pit under the tree! It will drop into the pit until it reaches a point that is 10 x 10 and plugs the hole. Or branches snap and it all gets pulled in and eaten or dissolved.
Om noms!
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