modern firearms in pathfinder, a simple way

[Foolish Frost]

I was looking at firearms as a concept, and came to a conclusion. Feel free to tell me how wrong I am.

Pathfinder does not need a lot of new feats, classes, and other rules to do a modern game.

Let me start with guns. The entire reason firearms were such a world-changer, is the fact their use was so simple. You point at the other guy, and pull the trigger. No special training needed. Uses the most basic hand-eye coordination, and does not need any of the physical/skill based training that a sword or bow needs.

Most of the rules I've seen are to balance gun against magic users and melee fighter. I'm not sure I can follow that, since the firearm is a logically disruptive advancement: Older methods of war get you killed against guns.

We already have cover rules. In just about every situation I know of, the main defense against guns is to turtle-down, fire shots are anything the enemy pops into view, and NOT get hit.

As to rules for pistols, machine guns, and the like: We build them into the weapon. They should not need a feat to use autofire. It's silly. I fired a machine gun at age 12 and was able to track a human sized target and tear it to pieces. (No, not a person, just human sized cutouts). Tracking moving objects is not much harder, really. I was 12, a heroic character should be able to do better, I would think?

Generally, I don't picture firearms killing off the wizard, as much as a smart one making sure to carry a shotgun and a few grenades, and to make sure they have a ton of cover before casting.

As to the idea of the differences between modern armor and archaic armor? Give ammo penetration values? Treat fantasy armor as a heck of a lot tougher? Ignore the issue? Take your pick. I would go with the idea combining all the above.

Anyway, your thoughts?

[Kaisoku]

Firearms and armor penetration really depend on the weapon and the armor involved. Bullet-proofing isn't unheard of (armor improvement in response to weapons), however once you get into the very large or armor-piercing rounds, it won't matter.

I'd say that in a world of modern guns, the only armor around would be bullet-proofing armor, such that small rounds would be affected by armor normally (AC applied normally). Higher end rounds would have armor piercing values (either applying to armorless AC, Touch AC, or something to that effect).

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You are absolutely correct that once you get into the realm of modern firearms, combat changes drastically.

As long as ammunition is available, the game is all about ranged combat. Cover and concealment are the name of the game... make it hard for your enemy to target you.

That isn't to say that melee has no place anymore. When ammunition runs out (or if you need to conserve it); if you are in close quarters or visibility is low (indoors, fog, etc); or if you need to get a more silent kill (even suppressors aren't perfectly silent); these are all situations where a melee weapon might become handy or predominant.

However, since it is likely not the most common weapon to go to, most melee weapons will likely have versatility in some way.. either it can be used at some kind of range (throwing weapon), or even double as a tool or has a secondary usage (cutting, smashing down stuff, used in a trap, etc).

Even in a world of firearms, the simple knife retains a solid position in active use.

[Puma D. Murmelman]

And I will never, ever allow you to "precise shot" with a machine gun burst.

There are a lot of things that won't be covered by the mechanics. Sure, hitting something with a gun is easy. So is hitting an elephant with a shuriken, like on a natural 20 for a commoner.

As much as I don't hate the gunslinger and firearms in general in Pathfinder, I'd rather use another system for full gun-shootouts.

edit: Just did some research (and I'm almost sure someone already did this fo one of the gunslinger rage threads, i don't read those) and tadaa: a medieval crossbow has about the same kinetic energy as a snaplock pistol (pirate style pistol). Thats a little more than modern .22LR Rifles. And a lot less than a properly thrown javelin.

[thejeff]

The problem with taking that simple approach is that firearms become the default. Everyone who can will use them.

Paizo introduce the feat, class and kept guns and ammo ridiculously expensive to limit their use, but still allow a character to use them as his primary weapon while also leaving melee fighters and archers viable.

That's not very realistic, but it was the design goal. In the real world, firearms were not at first reliable or quick enough to use as a main weapon. You'd fire off a shot, then draw your sword.
Later, when technology improved and rate of fire increased, firearms became dominant and melee weapons became the backup. There never was really a situation where they were balanced.

[Foolish Frost]

Oh, excuse me. I didn't make myself clear:

I mean modern firearms. From the revolver to the belt fed machine gun.

And no, I figure the best way to deal with fully auto weapons is area effect. Cones, I think. Save for half. This is keeping in mind HP are not just wounds and can stand for luck and such...

And yes, many think the idea of firearms started with the crossbow.

I think that, yes, everyone WOULD want a gun. And those that have one would have a distinct advantage over those that don't. I believe that's a historical fact. (With notable exceptions...)

Paizo's gunslinger is a perfectly functional class, as well. I was speaking of the sudden addition of modern (or futuristic) weapons to a fantasy environment. A situation already made possible by way of the setting due to the sci-fi additions.

[Kaisoku]

In d20 Modern, the weapons section starts with Ranged weapons first, moving on to specialized stuff like grenades, before spending the remaining space on melee weapons and improvised weapons (maybe 1/8th of the total space).

In a modern era, ranged weapons (and firearms especially) are definitely the main weapon expected. The game expects the majority of people using them.

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Regarding modern weaponry...

d20 Modern had "automatic" settings for many weapons. This allowed Autofire combat option: target a 10x10 square, fairly easy AC to hit, and those in area rolled Reflex saves or take damage.
There was also the Burst Fire feat, which allowed a sort of "autofire" against a single target (penalty to hit, adds extra dice damage). Some weapons had a 3-round burst fire setting which allowed the same effect for lower bullet cost (although you still needed the feat to get the extra damage).

Interesting note: Shotguns (and other pellet shooters) were single target weapons, not area effect weapons. Considering the lack of penetrating power of pellets, and the rather tight spread they fire with, it seems a much more realistic approach to the weapon. People tended to use them to make it easier to hit a target (either a small target, or a particular spot of a larger target), not to hit a bunch of targets at once.