I'm pretty sure I'm understanding this right, but I wanted to make sure others thought the same and, should I get lucky enough to get a chime in from Mike or Vic, they could confirm that things are as they intended.
I'm referring to Meliski's signature ability, that he can recharge a card to re-roll dice:
When a character at your location would fail a check, you may recharge a card (□ or shuffle it into your deck) to allow her to reroll 1 die (□ 2 dice). She must take the second result.
Now, it doesn't say "another character," so he can use it on his own rolls. That's fine.
It says "to allow her" not "to make her" or something, so even if you recharge a card, they don't HAVE to reroll a die. That's fine.
What I'm wondering is this - If I take the second power feat so that two dice can be re-rolled, does the selected character HAVE to reroll two dice if they're going to re-roll any? For example, if they roll two d6 and get a 1 and a 6, do they have to reroll the 6 to reroll the one, since I took the feat?
I don't think that's the intention, but that's how it reads to me as written. I wish it said "to allow her to reroll up to 1 die (□ 2 dice)."
What are your thoughts on the matter?
For the most part, unless the power says "must" (Sajan), I think you're allowed to interpret these things as up to? Or anyway, wasn't Harsk's card-drawing power clarified that way?
First Meliski looks to be amazing, and makes want to team him with Olenjack and start an all dwarf adventuring guild.
As to your questions, I agree with your reading in its entirety. As written the card requires you to reroll both dies, but the intention is almost certainly to allow you to reroll one or two dice. I would go with the later ruling unless we hear official word to the contrary.
I'm thinking that instead of adding your "up to", the extra feat should say "or 2 dice". So, if you recharge a card for the power, you do have to reroll SOMETHING, but can still reroll just one if you've taken the feat for two dice.
Even if you recharge, they don't have to reroll jack as is. It "allows" them to reroll, it doesn't "force" them to reroll.
Although I do like your wording better because it's more concise.
My personal opinion (and I'd be fine if they just made this a rule somehow) is that no upgrade to a power should prevent you from using it the way it was before it was upgraded. That is basically how they've corrected some of the character cards. So I'd be fine with letting them reroll just 1 die.
Though I don't think I'd be fine with recharging a card and them not rerolling anything. I read "allow" in the sense of "enable" not in the sense of it being an option for them. Some cards in RotR also said allow, like Mending for example:
Discard this card to allow a character at your location to discard a weapon, an armor or an item and take a card of that type from his discard pile into his hand.
But I don't think Mending can be discarded (and then attempt a recharge check) if the the target doesn't take the action it grants.
But I don't think Mending can be discarded (and then attempt a recharge check) if the the target doesn't take the action it grants.
Does this mean that I can use this power in an attempt to kill another character in OP by turning a lucky roll that barely failed into one that does more damage?
Previously, Restoration was the only way to attack another player that I can think of. I guess Siwar (Manipulator)'s bane evasion feat can also be used as an attack.
I realize you are probably jesting. But...
Cooperative Play
First and foremost, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game is a cooperative experience. Please let this idea guide your behavior during play. Don’t make decisions on behalf of other players, and don’t take actions that may harm another player’s character without that player’s consent.
That is also a pretty good rule to play by outside of organized play.
Mlvambie is kind of hitting on what I'm saying... kind of.
The designers seem very intent on making it easy to get along. The only things I can think of where you can force players to do something are the evade abilities like Ranzak's and Restoration. Many abilities say "willing player," for example. To "allow" a player to do something sounds to me like giving that player the option, in this light. That's all I'm saying. I could be wrong.
I actually just listened to the Quarter to Three podcast with Mike on and was surprised by (I think it was) Tom Chick's thoughts on "enlightened self-interest," like you might wander over to pick up a magical longsword against the screaming protests of your entire group, then lose the scenario, but at least you got your longsword!
I appreciated the thought process, but I also wondered "what kind of monster is playing that way?" I mean, we do that, but as a group. There have been a couple occasions where trade victory for a boon (when we scanned the remaining allies early in AP1 and saw Poog was not among them) because the scenario will always be there, but Poog won't necessarily.
I suppose this could change in organized play, where you're hanging out with strangers and who knows who's gonna do what. But from what I've read of the rules you only upgrade your deck when you win, so maybe they found a way around that too!
I always made those decisions with the group's approval.
"Guys, there's an Incindiary cloud over there. Do you mind...?"
I think the only time I'd do it anyway was if it was a Restoration (only half joking). XD
Enlightened self interest might include having a d4 Wisdom/Intelligence player's character die so that nobody has to deal with that person again. This violates the co-op spirit that Hawkmoon cites (as would pressuring the person to do something intelligent). The cards and character abilities probably shouldn't enable it.
Once you are playing with strangers some bits of the game might need tightening. Elsewhere I suggested changes for upgrade card conflict resolution so that it wouldn't be gamable.
I think it's time to request Mike or Vic to show up and clarify these two points. There seems to be a concensus that you SHOULD get to choose to reroll only one die, but not that the rules allow this. And there is no consensus about whether or not they MUST reroll it if you recharge the card.
I think it's time to request Mike or Vic to show up and clarify these two points. There seems to be a concensus that you SHOULD get to choose to reroll only one die, but not that the rules allow this. And there is no consensus about whether or not they MUST reroll it if you recharge the card.
Is it really necessary to get the devs to tell you whether or not can dick over a fellow player? Forcing a player to re-roll any number of dice if they don't want to is clearly not within the cooperative spirit of the game.
I would guess that if you get any clarification at all on this question, it will be that if you target an unwilling player, you haven't actually played that power and won't get to recharge that card.
It's not about dicking over another player, its about whether or not you have to reroll two dice after you upgrade the power, or if you can choose to only reroll one die.
It's not about dicking over another player, its about whether or not you have to reroll two dice after you upgrade the power, or if you can choose to only reroll one die.
I was referring to the second question: "And there is no consensus about whether or not they MUST reroll it if you recharge the card."
Well, so long as they're in here anyway... :D
Besides, I like to know things for sure. This will keep me up at night (not really, but it'll still bug me). There's something to be said for ironclad rules.
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Know that I'm the group rules lawyer when I say this,to the point of irritating my friends at times.
Yes, there is something to be said for ironclad rules -- usually. Not when they're only made ironclad because of someone nitpicking a minor wording detail that should be entirely obvious knowing the spirit of the game. It seems pretty clear that yes, they have to reroll if you use the power. The catch is that if you force them to, you can probably expect not to be playing with them anymore.
Hey, I'm not going around shouting demands that they answer my nitpicky question. I have a legitimate one - can they reroll just one - and while I'm at it I have another question. But I'm not pestering anyone and I don't plan to.
Besides, here are two more reasons to ask that question:
*There are other cards that say "allow." It might be more important on them - what if a card "allowed" every player to recharge a card in order to draw a card? You might need to play it to get a certain card, but your buddy at the same location may have the perfect hand. So do they have to recharge to draw as well?
*Obscure though they are, situations come up where you want to play Meliski's power whether anyone re-rolls are not, particularly in terms of hand size. If you're about to end your turn with one too many hand cards. for instance, recharging to re-roll would be more beneficial than just discarding. But you might be reacting to an ally's difficult combat check that was only failed by one - do they have to re-roll it and risk more cards?
It's not always about being a jerk. Goofy situations arise, and some options are better than others. It's good to know what you can or can't do.
The catch is that if you force them to, you can probably expect not to be playing with them anymore.
If you are the victim of such an action, you won't play with that person again but your character may end up recorded as officially dead and there isn't anything you can do about it. Or maybe you just want to make sure that someone will never play with you again.... (Outside of OP, some people play with those who believe in screwing with other players if possible; in a full RPG they might be the thief stealing from party members.)
Evade powers affect other players and need to work that way. Letting a player recharge a card for no effect isn't ideal. On the other hand, a card like Restoration probably shouldn't be mandatory for the receiving character.
It's not always about being a jerk. Goofy situations arise, and some options are better than others. It's good to know what you can or can't do.
I think that there are reported cases of suicide followed by raising the dead as a form of healing.
Just got back from Gen Con. We will talk about these things and get back to y'all.
Thanks, Mike!
Chief Technical Officer
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I'm pretty sure I'm understanding this right, but I wanted to make sure others thought the same and, should I get lucky enough to get a chime in from Mike or Vic, they could confirm that things are as they intended.
I'm referring to Meliski's signature ability, that he can recharge a card to re-roll dice:
When a character at your location would fail a check, you may recharge a card (□ or shuffle it into your deck) to allow her to reroll 1 die (□ 2 dice). She must take the second result.Now, it doesn't say "another character," so he can use it on his own rolls. That's fine.
It says "to allow her" not "to make her" or something, so even if you recharge a card, they don't HAVE to reroll a die. That's fine.
We're not going to say "you must force a character to reroll dice," because this is a cooperative game. But this doesn't mean you can recharge that card for no effect. If they don't wish to be allowed to reroll, you don't get to recharge the card.
What I'm wondering is this - If I take the second power feat so that two dice can be re-rolled, does the selected character HAVE to reroll two dice if they're going to re-roll any? For example, if they roll two d6 and get a 1 and a 6, do they have to reroll the 6 to reroll the one, since I took the feat?
I don't think that's the intention, but that's how it reads to me as written. I wish it said "to allow her to reroll up to 1 die (□ 2 dice)."
What are your thoughts on the matter?
I will double-check with the design team, but if you could choose to reroll just one, it should have been worded "to reroll 1 die (□ or 2 dice)."
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I will double-check with the design team, but if you could choose to reroll just one, it should have been worded "to reroll 1 die (□ or 2 dice)."
Unofficially:
You can definitely reroll only 1 die in that case. Jirelle's role cards have an "or" in the identical case, so until Vic gets around to making an S&S FAQ, imagine there's an "or" on Meliski as well.
I will double-check with the design team, but if you could choose to reroll just one, it should have been worded "to reroll 1 die (□ or 2 dice)."Unofficially:
You can definitely reroll only 1 die in that case. Jirelle's role cards have an "or" in the identical case, so until Vic gets around to making an S&S FAQ, imagine there's an "or" on Meliski as well.
Sweet, this was a big deal for me on how much I would like Meliski.
Thanks guys!
Love this ruling.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I will double-check with the design team, but if you could choose to reroll just one, it should have been worded "to reroll 1 die (□ or 2 dice)."Unofficially:
You can definitely reroll only 1 die in that case. Jirelle's role cards have an "or" in the identical case, so until Vic gets around to making an S&S FAQ, imagine there's an "or" on Meliski as well.