Awakened animal PC and Improved Unarmed Strike

[DustinGebhardt]

I have a PC in my group playing an awakened heavy horse. She has not yet taken a core class level, but will take paladin soon. She has asked me a question regarding feats that require Imp Unarmed Strike. Does a creature with no hope of using a "normal" weapon effectively qualify for feats that require IUS?

I can see her point that if she wants to use feats that require IUS, she will have to take Feral Combat Training, IUS, and Wpn Focus (x,y,z), of which the IUS really has no use, plus the FCT is "wasted" just to give her the ability to use feats with the IUS pre-requisite.

On the other hand, I can see some validity to requiring her to take the 3 feats, as this seems closest to the RAW interpretation.

Initially when she wanted to play the horse character, I told her that I would not make huge changes to the campaign just for her character, and so far we've both been good about making other rulings on the fly.

[Archaeik]

There shouldn't be an issue taking IUS for just about any creature. IUS is about weaponizing your body, not just fists.

In terms of flavor, she probably shouldn't be able to make an "unarmed" strike with her hooves(which are already weapons) -without also picking up FCT(hooves)- but making such an attack with her head or maybe a shoulder shouldn't be too far off.

Fact of the matter is, that without IUS, she can still make such an attack, but it provokes. (just because you have a weapon doesn't force you to use it -- I could hold a sword and non-IUS kick someone etc)

Keep in mind also, that as written, you can only get FCT with ONE type of natural weapon.(it doesn't say you can take it more than once)

Moreover, with an intelligence >= 3, she should be eligible for feats anyway.

[darth_borehd]

Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are two different things.

[remoh]

A horse has a bite and hoof natural attack. These do not provokes AOO. What feat does she want to take?

[blackbloodtroll]

All creatures with a physical body can make a unarmed strike. Those with natural attack usually don't, but all can. This was true even in 3.5, in which they decided to run with that fact and on the wizards site in the Elite Opponents article had an example of a fiendish gelatinous cube monk.

[Jester Bobbity]

Ok I'm up for a Challenge,

If you are a human and you wish to do lethal damage then the CRB (pg. 182) states:

Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your
unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make
your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack
roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you
can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without
taking a penalty on the attack roll.

The IUS description says:

You are considered to be armed even when
unarmed...

So if you are a human, you have to take a feat before you are considered "armed" and you may also now deal lethal damage

Also in the CRB (pg. 182) it states:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or
creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks).

In the Bestiary (pg. 302) it says:

Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and
outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures
can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons
for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they
must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making
attacks with both hands.

K, now that all the quoting is over here's my point,

If you are a critter from the Bestiary then you are ALWAYS armed. If you are from the CRB then you are always unarmed. In order to fix this i.e. not take penalties on attacks with non-lethal and lethal respectively then, in either case you would take IUS. I can find no difference at all between the attacks of a 1st level monk, and the attacks of a Bestiary critter that has Improved Unarmed Strike.

I'm not sure what Feral Combat training was supposed to accomplish save that it keeps me from rearing a Dire Bear that has the feats for crane style. I don't think it knows what it's there for either, but I have an idea.

Feral Combat Training (Combat)

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While
using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the
effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike
as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an
unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected
natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Assume I'm a first level monk with 2 natural attacks. Why would I ever take this crap? First off if I have natural attacks, then I came out of the bestiary, and therefore I am NEVER unarmed. We'll just overlook that for the time being though. CRB (pg. 57) In the monk description it says "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his
flurry of blows attacks."

Oooohhh Now we get it! If you're a monk you just trashed all your natural attacks. The reason this feat exists in so that a monk with natural attacks, can take it and use said natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows, which is probably the reason they became a monk in the first place. Not to mention any "effects that augment an
unarmed strike." Like Stunning Fist, ki strike, and the ever awe inspiring Quivering Palm. This is a fix from 3.5, where this was not addressed, and you could make anything out of the Monster Manual and give it monk levels.

This feat would be fine if it added "A monk may take this as a bonus feat at X level. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." or if they said "feats that have a prerequisite monk level."

[Jester Bobbity]

Oh and a fiendish gelatinous cube monk. Sounds Freakin EPIC!!!!

[blackbloodtroll]

What you mad about Jester?

[Jester Bobbity]

Me mad? No. Unless you mean crazy type in which case. Maybe.

Actually I am a little upset that I didn't think of that fiendish gelationous cube monk sooner :P

[0gre]

The game rules are written with the assumption that player characters and most non-player characters who take class levels are humanoid. You are on your own a bit with a lot of this stuff. Monk might be a better bet instead of paladin, though paladin has a certain thematic appeal. Do you get a bonded rider instead of a bonded mount?

[blackbloodtroll]

We heard you like horses...

[Jester Bobbity]

Yes. I'm in love with a horse... there I said it. (Horse is gf's character lol)

@ Ogre: No she has decided to have a torrid love affair with her "mount" for four levels and then have a really emotional break up, and trade him in for a tiger. The jokes abou loving her mount will be so prolithic that I fully expect to go nowhere for two or three sessions, just sitting there telling jokes. Good thing we get bonus xp for making the DM laugh.

[solanole]

Hi, the horse in question here. @remoh - the feat I'd like to take is Belier's Bite. My argument is, to take it as a horse I have to take three prerequisites - Feral Combat Training, Weapon Focus (natural weapon), and Improved Unarmed Strike. A humanoid has to only take one prerequisite - Improved Unarmed Strike. Why should a horse have to take two more prerequisite feats than a humanoid? Especially for a feat that allows you to do bleed damage, ostensibly by biting, which a horse should be able to do as well as a man.

[Archaeik]

Belier's Bite
the "bite" in the name of the feat has nothing to do with the action that causes the effect, it is only a name.

And to be perfectly clear, you DON'T need 3 feats to use this, you only need the same one everyone else does, IUS... BUT it can only be used with an "unarmed strike" (which you can now do without penalty) -- a unarmed strike for a large creature should be 1d4 iirc, if you take a level of monk they should start at 1d8 for large

In terms of this feat, the bleed is caused by an unarmed strike (probably internal bleeding).

To us this feat with a natural weapon, you need FCT because it is an effect added to an unarmed strike, a discipline designed to enable creatures without natural weapons to fight as if they did.

So...
with IUS, you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes AND can take this feat
with FCT, you can use a natural weapon(already lethal without a feat) in conjunction with this feat

I wish it were so easy for humanoids to gain abilities from the universal monster rules....(the flip side of what you're doing)

edit: in terms of usefulness, I'd bypass FCT unless you plan on taking other IUS prereq feats or levels in monk. A headbutt that cause bleed should be sufficient for this purpose, then just bite afterward. In fact, it opens up your attack routine a bit more if you're willing to iterative IUS then attack with your naturals as secondary

[solanole]

@Archaeik - I like that. So my horse can add 'headbutt' to her list of feats. And the horse getting human feats is nice, but there are a few really nice ones that just don't apply to her. Like mounted combat feats. Alas!

[DustinGebhardt]

Coming back to this post after severla days and I find out that my players have posted in the thread. My first thought was something similar to the scene in Back to the Future where the Libians find Doc and Marty in the parking lot of the mall.

"OMG they found me. I don't know how, but they found me. RUN MARTY!"

;-)

@solanole. Well, you can take mounted combat and its related feats, assuming that your character can find a suitable mount. :-)

Thanks to @archaeik for the explanation.

[Eolas]

That would make for quite the exotic saddle.

[BigNorseWolf]

Raw: there is no reason the horse cannot take improved unarmed strike. She can learn to hip check , head but, ram with her chest etc. Its still a requirement for the feat.

RAI: i think you're well outside the bounds of intent here, so just go with what you want. if you think the circumstances warrent skipping improved unarmed strike to get the other feats go for it.