Kama, Double-Chained. question

[crystallos]

Kama, Double-Chained: This weapon comprises a pair of kama connected with an 8-foot length of chain. The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

The way im reading it as it counts as 2 Kama, my question is can it then be used with weapon finesse since they are light weapons normally?

[Ravingdork]

Not likely.

[Hayato Ken]

"Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain."

For TWF melee weapon finesse yhould be ok-
the reach attack is different though.
But since you can also weapon finesse a whip and its according maneuvers, why not?

[blackbloodtroll]

Kusarigama could be better, but no one knows how either works.

[wraithstrike]

The weapon is still only one weapon. You don't get to just hold on to one end without a specific rules exception.

As for weapon finesse, it has to be listed as a light weapon or have special writing saying it is an exception. Rules-wise it won't work.

[Hayato Ken]

The kama itself is a light melee weapon, if exotic.
Now with the sentence i bolded above, why cant you use weapon finesse on it?
Also it uses the word whip in the description for the reach attack.

Even as a monk or ninja you pay the EWP feat for this.

[wraithstrike]

I was talking about the double kama which is its own weapon. I agree that it should be finessable, if you just look at the kama aspect of it, but I can't see any rules that say it is.

When you wield a double weapon using the TWF fighting style one side is treated as a one-handed weapon, and the other side is treated as a light weapon.

The double chained kama does not have a rules exception to get around that.

Edit:I am not saying that it is RAW or even RAI because it is not, but I would allow it to be finessed for the purpose of TWF'ing in my home games.

[Hayato Ken]

Wraithstrike the double Kama description states:
"Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack."

You are double wielding a kama, so you can finesse it.
I am not sure about the reach part, but i guess that is finessable too.

[Mabven the OP healer]

Why does this weapon exist? They neutered the spiked chain, because the developers didn't want characters to be able to attack with reach and at adjacent creatures with the same weapon, and now they have created a new weapon that does exactly that. wth?

[Hayato Ken]

There are two other weapons that do the same.

[Mabven the OP healer]

This is so ridiculous. During play-testing, the spiked chain was determined to be too unbalanced because it could attack both adjacent and with 10' reach. But it seems that the issue is not that it is unbalanced, but that they just want you to pay for new books to get that level of utility from a weapon. Power-creep is apparently proportional to the amount of money you pay. Maybe we should all just give up table-top rpg's and just play Magic: the Gathering.

[Hayato Ken]

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

This is so ridiculous. During play-testing, the spiked chain was determined to be too unbalanced because it could attack both adjacent and with 10' reach. But it seems that the issue is not that it is unbalanced, but that they just want you to pay for new books to get that level of utility from a weapon. Power-creep is apparently proportional to the amount of money you pay. Maybe we should all just give up table-top rpg's and just play Magic: the Gathering.

No way!

If anything then Game of thrones LCG.

[oneplus999]

I've been tempted by this weapon, but when I come across something so poorly explained, I've decided that I'll just try to avoid it if I can... that said here's the best I can figure about how this weapon works, if one does choose to play with it.

If we also look at the double weapon section, it says this:

srd wrote:

Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Despite how double weapons are explained as "1h weapon + oh weapon", clearly in this case its actually like wielding two light weapons. Of course any time a rule is written "you do y, just like if you were doing x" there will be debates over exactly what properties of x are transferred to y (see: monk flurry is "like" twf debates...)

I think having to "extend the chain" with the kamas means you are limited to EITHER "two kamas, 5' reach only" or "single weapon, 10' reach only" mode each round. The bit about being able to retrieve the kamas is so that you can say, grab a potion from your bag, drink it, and then have kamas in-hand again without any trouble (which is probably how other double-weapons work, too? I assume you can temporarily hold a double-axe in one hand while you drink a potion). So this isn't entirely a replacement for spiked chain, as spiked chain could do 5' reach and 10' reach seamlessly.

As for finesse, double weapons are supposed to be "two handed" when wielded as a single weapon, which would suggest that it's not finessable. That said, it's clearly whip-like, and really ought to be finessable, so I assume it's either an oversight or maybe for balance purposes (high dex+combat reflexes+reach=mass trips). Of course you can still just get enlarged instead, but that's going to hurt a dex-based character.

Another question would be, can someone use it as a single kama when they want to, and leave the other end dangling? Might be good for crane style and other "must have 1 hand free" actions, while still giving the option to reach when needed.

[Petrus222]

I think there might be more to its limitations than meets the eye. Given that the text says a single reach attack does that mean no iterative attacks at reach?

[Silent Saturn]

The "single attack at reach" might be a standard action only, which mean you could move and do it, then 5' step to be adjacent and TWF.

[Tandriniel]

Faq'ed

[Krodjin]

I'd love to know the threatened area at any given time. If I TWF in round 1 can a make an AoO at 10' after my turn? If I charge and attack at 10' can I still AoO adjacent?