Problems with a Beginner Box sequel

[Jewelfox]

This is about the idea of making more stuff in the vein of the Beginner's Box. There are a couple of problems I'm seeing Paizo face here.

One, a direct sequel won't work.

Something like "levels 6-10" necessarily limits it to people who've "beaten" the Beginner Box. Take a look at the Pathfinder products Paizo makes: Basically every book can be used in a wide range of levels, including for creating new characters. You don't have to buy them in any particular order, either. After you've got the Core Rulebook, you can just buy whatever interests you.

This is probably how Paizo wants it, and this is probably why there's so much in the Beginner Box that's designed to funnel people towards the Core Rulebook. Everything else it makes follows from that.

Two, the Core Rulebook is unbelievably clumsy.

It's a 576-page small-print doorstop. It's the book Paizo had to make to get the ball rolling, but Paizo seems to have chosen to err on the side of "comprehensive" rather than "fun" for it, or even "legible." It's my personal feeling that it serves as more of a reference for players who already know how to play 3.5, rather than an introduction to a new game. It does a good job as the former, but a terrible job as the latter, especially for RPG newbies.

That's why Paizo had to make the Beginner Box. Starting out, there was a ginormous pool of dissatisfied 3.5 players to poach for a new game. But at some point that wound down, so now they need to bring in new blood. 4e did that with the Essentials line, but that was controversial for many of the same reasons 4e was.

Paizo, in contrast, made it a priority not to alienate its existing players, so with the Beginner Box it again erred on the side of "comprehensive." This time around, though, the old classes and rules were given a fresh coat of paint, and a presentation that was designed to appeal to new players and ease them into the game. It's the same game; Paizo's just starting to think about player acquisition instead of retention, and how it'd appeal to newbies.

That's why we need more products like this.

The market of people who are dedicated enough to slog through thick hardcovers designed for last century's sensibilities is only going to get smaller. There's no reason that market can't still be served, and Paizo has shown that it's dedicated enough to keep doing so. But just like it's selling the new Pathfinder Battles prepainted minis at the same time as Reaper sells do-it-yourself figs, these new Beginner Box style products -- which are classier, better designed, easier to get into, and just plain more fun, at the expense of not being as concise -- also need to be made.

The question isn't whether or not they'll get made, the question is who's going to. Here's hoping it's Paizo, and that it stays classy and continues to value its existing customers.

My prediction?

A "Core Rulebook 2.0" or similar alternate presentation of the main rules, designed to be streamlined and tasteful but not significantly altered. Maybe along the likes of 3.5 compared to 3e, at most, and with classes like Magus and Summoner built-in. Paizo's learned a lot about how to design and typeset since it started this Pathfinder thing. Sooner or later, it'll be time to put that experience to work.

Just a reminder.

Paizo is not a publicly-traded corporation. It has no shareholder obligations. It can have goals other than "make as much money as possible," like "make the coolest games possible." And it can look to a horizon beyond the next quarter. Moreso than Certain Large Competitors, it recognizes that it's made up of actual people, and it has made a name for itself by letting them pursue their passions and building relationships with its customers.

Whether you're talking about what Paizo should do or is likely to do, keep in mind that Paizo's not likely to stop being awesome. Also keep in mind that for Paizo, "being awesome" and "making boatloads of money" have gone together so far.

[Winter_Born]

No worries as they've said that the BB sequel is the Core Rulebook.

Cool write up though. :D

[S'mon]

Were it not for the Beginner Box I would not be running Pathfinder (though I'd still be snapping up Paizo flipmats - I love those things!). I would buy a streamlined PF core rulebook with a presentation more akin to that of the Beginner Box; especially if it cut down on the clunkier 3e-isms that made the transition to PF. Otherwise I'm happy to keep my Pathfinder game to levels 1-5.

The big decision point for me is likely to be in late 2013/2014 as my 4e D&D campaigns may be wrapping up around then - will I go to the 5th edition of D&D, or go over to full Pathfinder, or run more 4e D&D, or even run 1e AD&D tabletop (I'm GMing it online). Right now I think I'm unlikely to go to full Pathfinder unless there is a 'Pathfinder 1.5' edition that improves presentation, class balance, and speed of gameplay in line with the Beginner Box - PF improved all of these over 3.5 D&D, but there is still a way to go IMO.

[Mooncabbage]

I have actually been thinking about this. I have my step-daughter and GF playing the BB, plus the Bash games and the GM Kit dungeon. My stepdaughter is 8 and she while she might eventually make it through the Hero's Handbook, there is no way she could ever read the PF book. Similarly my GF is vision impaired and has trouble reading for long periods of time, and is primarily interested in playing with her daughter, and is not dedicated to learning a huge set of complicated rules.

I am basically considering the BB to be "Pathfinder Basic", and it works fantastically like that. The rules are simple enough to understand, and there is plenty to do. The Monster Counters are an especially nice touch, they take up nowhere near as much room as minis to store, and are probably much cheaper to boot.

Unfortunately it's quite difficult for me to convert existing PF adventures to the BB, because the tone of most of those adventures is inappropriate. They're made with mature gamers in mind.

What I would like to see Paizo do, is not make the BB a one shot, but consider it perhaps a separate line that might lead into PF, rather than necessarily doing so. I would personally love to buy BB expansions, with new monster counters, adventures, map tiles, spells, items etc. Not new classes, because I think the 4 is just fine. Something like the Hero Quest expansions of old. Maybe even an "Intermediate Box" levels 6-10 somewhere down the line.

You only have to look at the number of parents in the comments here, singing the praises of the BB, to see there would be a market for simpler, more self contained products with a more child friendly tone.

I really hope to see something like that in the near future :D

[Koren n'Rhys]

I totally agree with Mooncabbage here. I think a parallel line of box sets - ala Mentzer BECMI D&D - is a great idea. I would like to see some more class and race options added over time, but in the simplified BB format.

I run BECMI myself but bought the box for my 12yo daughter to run. She plays in my campaign (and so do some of her friends), and also plays in a D&D4 game or 2 run my those friends. It seems like the kids ignore a lot of the more complex rules, so the intricacies of PF Core are beyond them.

The BB simplifies enough that they seem to use much more as written without being overwhelmed. That said, they do want more class/race options, but not so much skills. Feats... maybe. So, expanding the BB ruleset would be a smart move, I think. I found EdOWar's BB classes and we have been using some of those in the meantime.

I would love to see more adventures as well. Not the shorter Bash type or full adventure paths, but something suitably in the middle. I'm curious to see how far along 0One Games carries their new Basic Paths line.

[Mooncabbage]

Well, with regards to suitable adventure modules, I would prefer to see a quit short game, the sort of thing you could wrap up in a few hours. Maybe a little bit longer than the bash type adventures, perhaps 4-5 encounters total. It's hard to get non-gamers to sit down for hours and hours at a time, and I'd much prefer to finish the adventure than leave it hanging.

A mix might also be worth considering, I have tried running the bash games (with some modifications for a 2 player party) during the week, and I plan on running a longer game on the weekend. Even then, the Blackfang dungeon feels about twice as long as it should be, it definately feels like a two parter, but there is no good "to be continued" point.

Another option might be a random dungeon generator, with a set of different tiles (corridors, rooms etc), and just roll up the rooms as you go. It's not necessarily something my group would enjoy, but for the RPG-lite players it might be a good introduction to roleplaying, without the embarrassment of talking in funny voices.

[araquael]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I suspect the answer is some sort of mini-campaign boxed set, set somewhere in the Sandpoint area, featuring the iconic characters and rules from the Beginner's Box, only expanding the rules out to include the Ranger, Sorcerer, Paladin, Druid and Bard. And maybe the monk.

Have the campaign be designed to take the heroes from level 5 to 8, but repeating the rules for character creation. (One could also release a super collector's box).

Link the campaign to whatever's hot amongst the pathfinder minis collection. Perhaps something like "Red Right Hand" for 3.5 with a bit more focus on using the minis.

Throw in dice, some map packs, and pawns, and sell the lot for sixty dollars or something and you might have a winner.

The main thing might be to keep the story somewhat more light-hearted and heroic. Not silly light hearted, but more Star Wars than A Game Of Thrones, so to speak.

[Naeve]

Personnaly, I think what could be the best it is a campaign who start as a beginner box but at the end you finish to have explore the principal upgrade and go easily to the core rule book. Like with the first adventure BB, they discover new rules, new characteristic, with each encounter.

And when they arrived at the level number 5, the GM and the players do not feel so afraid of the core rule book.

[Mooncabbage]

Actually I've been thinking about this more, and I think the issue is less that a beginner box sequel is required, and more that certain things are lacking from the rest of the Paizo line.

The beginner box already provides plenty of card figures, and Paizo is producing more of those as a separate product line. It's not really necessary to add any classes, as they're already available in the SRD if you want them and otherwise they over complicate a nice simple game.

The issue isn't even the rules are any splitting of the customer base. Just because the players don't and probably won't be using the more complex rules, doesn't mean the GM can't buy full Pathfinder products and run them for his BB players.

What the beginner box highlights is a lack of light hearted adventure modules and paths, and also the need for "Ready to Run" adventures. To run a BB style adventure as a GM, you only have to skim read it once, and you can play right from the book. For those of us with precious little prep time to write our own adventures or fart about trying to commit to memory the important details of an adventure in the current style, it's a godsend.

So to summarize, there are two things you really need to expand on the Beginner Box. Appropriately light hearted adventures modules, and a better, clearer encounter format. If it comes in a pretty box with maps and tiles and counters all inclusive, all the better.

[S'mon]

Mooncabbage wrote:

What the beginner box highlights is a lack of light hearted adventure modules and paths, and also the need for "Ready to Run" adventures. To run a BB style adventure as a GM, you only have to skim read it once, and you can play right from the book. For those of us with precious little prep time to write our own adventures or fart about trying to commit to memory the important details of an adventure in the current style, it's a godsend.

So to summarize, there are two things you really need to expand on the Beginner Box. Appropriately light hearted adventures modules, and a better, clearer encounter format. If it comes in a pretty box with maps and tiles and counters all inclusive, all the better.

Yes! I was just thinking exactly the same thing. The light tone of the Beginner Box adventure is perfect for gaming with children, but it's also great for anyone who wants that lighter, more Mentzer-y style, and less of the slightly adolescent 'dark' tone that pervades every other Pathfinder adventure I've seen. I really noticed this running 'Crypt of the Everflame' with Beginner Box last Sunday; and that's hardly the darkest of Paizo adventures.

I think there's definitely a market for adventures written in a somewhat lighter style, but still action-adventure, not 'juvenile', just not self-consciously dark. 'Star Wars' is a good analogy. They could be written for the full Pathfinder game and used as a transition tool from the Beginner Box, I know Paizo is not very keen on publishing more Beginner Box material as such.

Edit: I also agree about ease of use; Crypt of the Everflame is pretty easy to use - if you're happy to ignore stuff and wing it a bit - but I don't find the Adventure Path modules easy to use at all.

[HangarFlying]

Paizo won't do it, but there is no reason why a 3PP couldn't do it.