I reach out to you, Paizo messageboards!
I've got a newly 3rd level Half-Orc Paladin who I have no idea what I'm going to do with.
Str-17
Dex-15
Con-16
Int-14 (+2 Racial, for the extra skill pt.)
Wis-12
Cha-16
He uses a great-axe and his first level feat was Endurance, mostly so he can sleep in his Banded armor.
I was considering going down the Sunder tree, and still might, but I'm less familiar with all my options than I used to be.
So how would you feat this character if you were playing him?
Cheers!
Power Attack is a must. I'd think about Weapon Focus too. It's always under estimated the need to hit before being able to do damage.
Ugh, Weapon Focus always scares me.
Me-"Alright, now I have weapon focus for my sword and I'm ready to go!"
*Adventure*
DM-"Oh, by the way, in the loot pile of the big bad evil guy you find a mace that is just way too good to pass up!"
Me- /facepalm
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Ugh, Weapon Focus always scares me.
Me-"Alright, now I have weapon focus for my sword and I'm ready to go!"
*Adventure*
DM-"Oh, by the way, in the loot pile of the big bad evil guy you find a mace that is just way too good to pass up!"
Me- /facepalm
FAQ/Errata
- Can I retrain a feat that I gained at 1st level (such as Cleave) to gain a feat that I did not qualify for at 1st level, but do qualify for now (such as Lunge)?Yes. So long as the feat that you "lose" is not used as a prerequisite for any other feat, prestige class, or other ability, you can gain any feat that you qualify for at the time that you retrain it.
If you get a new weapon you should be able to retrain in it for weapon focus. Even though that question was in answer to a bonus fighter feat I think it would apply to any class or feat.
That errata was in reference to the fighter's ability to retrain feats. This is an ability that paladins do not possess.
Before assuming that you can check with your DM.
You can only retrain the fighter bonus feats. The other feats are permanent when chosen.
When I GM I often give weapons the players have weapon focus in, even if the module or AP has a different weapon.
Int-14 (+2 Racial, for the extra skill pt.)
Generally i applaud to see an intelligent paladin for a change, but you should always put the racial mod on your highest stat and 14 seems a bit exsessive.
I´d also avoid weapon focus so early on.Power-attack is exspecially interesting coupled with furious focus, means that with a two-handed weapon you can ignore the power attack penalty on to hit for the first attack you make. I´d recommend that for 5th-level.
As for sunder, there´s a alternate racial ability for half-orcs, gate-crasher, which give a bonus on that.
With a greataxe or greatsword vital-strike makes sense at 7th level, exspecially if you have someone to cast enlarge person on you.
Also, half, or at least third of the fun of endurance is that its a prerequisite for die hard, which may be a bit obsolete with orc ferocity, though you might want to dump that in favour of gate-crasher, which would make dia hard more interesting again.
PS: Just search for : guide paladin
Power attack. Thats about all you need really, everything else is just flavour, check out a couple of the guides that are available. They all have helpful advice on feats and theres a huge number to choose from.
Where does one find these guides?
Int-14 (+2 Racial, for the extra skill pt.)Generally i applaud to see an intelligent paladin for a change, but you should always put the racial mod on your highest stat and 14 seems a bit exsessive.
Back in the day, I'd totally agree with you. But as the years have gone on, I've realized that the extra skill point from Int comes in handy MUCH more often than a single extra point of Str bonus. ;)
If you just bought Int 14 and took a 15 + 2 in Str instead you would have the EXACT same stat array, except with 3 points to spare!
Thanks for clearing this up, couldn´t do the math at the moment.
Neo - the issue is not necessarily that you value Int higher, but that it's ALWAYS a bad idea to take the racial increase in a low stat, due to how Point Buy works. If you just bought Int 14 and took a 15 + 2 in Str instead you would have the EXACT same stat array, except with 3 points to spare! You could use these to pump your str to 16+2 instead, start with an 18.
Because it's cheaper to take Int from 12 to 14 than Str from 15 to 17, your way of doing it is suboptimal regardless of how you wish to prioritize stats.
EDIT: But I guess I was assuming you're doing point buy, but I guess that's not necessarily the case. In that case what I said doesn't really apply, though I'd still prioritize Str over Int, especially in PF where it's easier to get a decent bonus in all of your class skills without a lot of points.
Well yeah, for point-buy that is totally logical and would be silly to spend a racial on a lower stat.
But we rolled scores this time. :)
Power attack.
As a melee god you need two feaat.
1 Power attack, an later you must pick
2 improved crit.
Step up is also a feat that you might want to pick eventually.
I would wait with weaapon focus until you know
A) if you need it or really want it
B) What weapon you want to use.
edit:
You got 14 int, nice.
If you like to have som more cool spells on you list "Unsanctioned Knowledge" is rather nice. It's is from Ultimate magic.
If my paladin had 14 int I would pick it at level 5 or 7.
edit 2
I think Endurance is a rather weak feat.
At level 1 + 2 you just bring along some light armor and sleep in.
At level 3 you will get your first mercy so you can just remove that fatigued condition. Or just sleep in light armor.
Ask if your DM let's you trade Endurance for something else.
If you like it, keep it.
Where does one find these guides?
Let me help you :-).
The only page you needA link to Guide-to-the-Guides.
Well, to be honest it really does not look like you want that character to be optimized, so you should just pick those feats that you think fit to him the most.
Optimized for what?
The character looks great.
He has Int so he can make great use of all the great class skills the paladin has. HE can even add ranks to skills that are not class skills, such as UMD and perception.
His lowest stat is wisdom which is logical.
Rest of the stats are all high.
At level 4 he can boost STR to 18 and eventually get items that boost STR and CHAR.
He don't have to get Headband with char + wis + int, because his Int and Wis is good enough.
He don't have to get belt of Str+Con+Dex because his Con and Dex is good enough.
He can focus just on STR and CHAR. If he wants to boost the other stats he can get ioun stones.
Heck with stats like this he can get by in mithral medium armor and even use TWF.
swap +2 Int to Str (or Ch), get rid of endurance and pick a useful feat.
Rolling good scores does not make a character optimized.
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Even if you really want an extra skill point, you're better off putting your racial into constitution and then taking the favoured class bonus as a skill point each level. You get an extra point of fortitude save out of it and 2 hp more death threshold in exchange for -1 to your knowledge skills.
As for feats, Power Attack and Furious Focus together give you extra damage at no penalty with a two-handed weapon. Perfect for a greataxe, and you would have until level 5 to decide on weapon focus.
You also have the requisite stats to be a shield basher. Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Shield Bash in that case.
You picked Endurance, but I'm not sure why. Sleeping in armour makes a person fatigued. You can remove fatigue with Lay on Hands. No problems there!
swap +2 Int to Str (or Ch), get rid of endurance and pick a useful feat.
Rolling good scores does not make a character optimized.
let me quote...
Optimization does not equal maximized DPR. Optimization is the act of building to meet a goal, and using the correct tools to accomplish this. The statement should generally hold true if you aren't trying to pidgeonhole players into thinking in only one form.
If he wants a powerful character with a lot of skills he has optimized.
str 17 and char 16 is really good. Sure Str or char could be higher, but 17 and 16 is fine.Agree endurance isn't a feat I would pick.
Most important: Power attack
Pretty important: Cleave/Cleaving Finish/Mighty cleaving enchantment on your weapon.
Situationally awesome/important around level 7: Unsactioned Knowledge, the level 2 spells are ridiculous.
I've actually already been choosing the favored class skill point every level.
My GM is sticking to basics, and 2+Int for skills is sad for any character (if it were my game, I'd give every class an extra 2 skill points every level, but alas, it's not my game). As I have him now, I'm getting 7 skill points every level, which means I'm actually useful outside of holy combat (not many paladins can say that ;) ).
For ability advancements, I'm likely going to put 1 into Str at level 4, 1 into Dex at level 8, and then the other 3 into Cha:
The early Str bump will give me the most potential out of Power Attack for these early levels before I have magic items to compensate.
The Dex bump gets me to a +3 for that future Mith Full Plate (and lets me avoid wasting a magic item on a dex bump) as well as padding my worst save.
The 3 into Cha gets me a 19 base, which after +5 Tome and +6 item, puts me at a 30 even, and lets me meet the prereq for fun feats like Ultimate Mercy without worrying about needing the magic items to qualify.
All that said, I may or may not agree on Endurance being worthless. I honestly can't decide.
On the one hand, the bonuses it provides to skill checks will go unused, knowing my GM. On the other hand, my GM is cruel enough to enjoy attacking us at night pretty regularly, so being able to sleep in heavy armor with no risk of fatigue is a pretty big boon.
swap +2 Int to Str (or Ch), get rid of endurance and pick a useful feat.
Rolling good scores does not make a character optimized.
let me quote...
Optimization does not equal maximized DPR. Optimization is the act of building to meet a goal, and using the correct tools to accomplish this. The statement should generally hold true if you aren't trying to pidgeonhole players into thinking in only one form.If he wants a powerful character with a lot of skills he has optimized.
str 17 and char 16 is really good. Sure Str or char could be higher, but 17 and 16 is fine.
Agree endurance isn't a feat I would pick.
Yes, sure its not about maximized DPR. But still, +2 Int for a Paladin is just not effective. One one hand its just not worth it (as explained some posts above), on the other hand in a group of characters the +1 skillpoint for the paladin is just not that much of an advantage compared to +2 Str or Ch.
edit @Neo: as Mergy said, therefor you have LoH...
As I said. You char looks great.
Being able to sleep in armor has saved us many times (we had a cleric with the Restoration Subdomain. He could remove fatigued, and other stuff, a number of times per day equal to 3 + Wisdom modifier. We almost always slept in armor).
That said I agree with Mergy, Extra LoH is probably better, but you made your choice.
Me I don't like cleave, but it can be good even at higher levels.
Blind fight can be a life savoir, but you have good saves and if you max UMD you can use a lot of cool wands. Wands like: see invisibility....and long strider, Mage armor, barkskin, Shield, etc.
Unsanctioned Knowledge is crazy good if you like spells. Pick it at level 7.
Improved crit is a must have.
Sunder is messy. How many hit points have item X, what is the hardness?
Me I don't like the math. Stopping a fight to look thru books.
A lot of monster don't even use weapons.
But step up at sunder are nice when you fight archers.
I really love step up. Adds to mobility and versatility.
furious focus and weapon focus might both be good.
Quick draw isn't bad actually.
But first: Pick power attack. :-)
What spells do you have in mind when you suggest Unsanctioned Knowledge? I can't help but think that spells balanced by level for a caster who can go up to 9th level spells would be weaker, by level, than spells balanced for a caster that only goes up to 4th (though I admit, I haven't done a whole lot of cross-examination.)
1st level vanish
2nd level silence
3rd level good hope
4the level dimenaion door
there are any number of other great combinations but they are the ones i would pick.
Extra Lay On Hands, Greater Mercy, Ultimate Mercy ... nothing like being able to raise the dead for the low low cost of a 24 hour negative level.
Currently playing Carrion Crown; myself and another in our group both rolled paladins. lay on hands has far and away been the most useful feature of the class. swift action to heal yourself is just ... incredible.
My feats are (deliberately) a bit odd and probably sub-optimal; ran with step-up (came up once or twice, so yay!), extra lay on hands, toughness (yes, toughness, I had a 14 con and wanted the extra durability), and now I'm going with greater mercy/ultimate mercy so we have TWO people who can raise the dead.
Mind, it's not gonna help against all of those death effects, but it's come up already :)
Anyway, all of the suggestions so far are good. Depends if you want to go utility, healing or damage.
1st
Feather Fall, Obscuring Mist, Grease, True Strike, Feather Step (fantastic spell), Vanish.
2nd (The 2nd level spells are great)
See invisibility (Great spell. early entry via inquisitor), Silence (great spell) , Blur, Glitter dust, Heroism (Great spell - early entry via Bard)
invisibility, knock, tongues, Honeyed Tongue, Versatile Weapon (early entry via Bard. Good when you can't smite), Mirror Image, Invisibility, Gallant Inspiration, blur, Bloodhound, Alter Self, Calm Emotions
3rd
Displacement, Good hope, Haste, Dimension anchor (early entry via inquisitor), Slow, Jester's Jaunt, invisibility purge.
You could take heroism as a 3rd level spell (entry via inquisitor), but good hope is really great.
4th
Greater Invisibility, Blessing of fervor, Dimension door, Divine Power, Stoneskin, Freedom of movement, Air Walk.
to name just a few :-)
...and all the divination spells like comprehend languages and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Sending, Detect Thoughts, etc
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On top of the list that Egoish offers, there are also:
1st - expeditious retreat, silent image, obscuring mist
2nd - aid, heroism, darkness (for a half-orc, awesome), glitterdust, blur
3rd - create food and water, dispel magic, invisibility purge, gaseous form, haste, jester's jaunt, tongues (communal)
4th - dimensional anchor, spell immunity, greater invisibility, freedom of movement, dance of a hundred cuts
And get some pearls of power and you can recast these spells :-)
edit:
And once you have them on your list you can use scrolls and wands.
If you max out Use magic device you will eventually be able to use wands, but some spells are better to cast from a spell slot.
They're on the spell list, so you can prepare them multiple times, unlike domain slots.
Good catch.
Pearls of power ar good regardless. More spells are always nice, especially if your spells are really good.