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So, my group is reaching the final stretch of the campaign in the next couple months. They're just about level 20, and will be by the end. They've been going up against the minions of a crazy, home-brewed Deity since the beginning, and what I would like is for them to go up against her for the final battle. However, I have no idea how to create a respectably powerful Deity, and yet still be beatable for level 20 characters.
This Deity is Chaotic Evil, and I think I may have her be a necromancer? Maybe? If I do go that route, I'm thinking of making an Oracle. However, is there a monster in one of the MM's that would fit the roll nicely, and then throw on top a few levels of Oracle to make it the proper level? I'm at a loss.
The party composition is a Negative Cleric, a Witch, a Fighter and a Rogue/Shadowdancer. I'm still a bit shaky as to where this "final battle" will take place, as well, so any suggestions on that would be greatly appreciated.
If I've forgotten to add anything, just ask and I'll provide the info.
I would say don't! Even a party of 20th level characters would strugle against a mere Demon Lord, which are considered to be lesser in power than a demi-god, and this BBEG is a powerfull god. So unless the party has some way of nulifying a great portion of this guys powers (artifact?) then they will be turned into a charred stain on the ground before the surprise round is over.
You could go the rappan athuk rout and have some way the players can weaken her. Than just either slap a bunch of character levels on a monster to represent the weakened god. or homebrew one completely yourself.
I agree with the others -- look at the CR 20+ monsters already in existence and realize that these aren't even the "best" of the demon lords/archdevils/etc -- no spark of the divine in them at all and *extremely* powerful. The Solar (at CR 23) are described as "approaching" the power of demigods, and they're full-on CL 20 casters plus their amazing physical stats and gear. Similarly, the Olethrodaemon Paragons are CR 22-24, and that's because they're the servants of the lesser profane (the horsemen).
As such, I would say that some pre-combat questing to soften the god up (stealing items into which it invested its powers, for instance, though the actual how of that will depend on your campaign to date) before the party could even stand a chance and not just be incinerated with a few random thoughts.
The other issue about your goal is that "a few levels" of Oracle won't give you something with real power -- you're going to want something with 20 caster levels, otherwise, you won't get access to the spells that would actually affect and disrupt a L20 party. And, finally, there's also the action economy issue -- lone bosses are at a severe disadvantage when facing a party of 4 or more.
So, my suggestion (which helps with both issues) would be to have use their rituals/artefacts/whatever pre-combat which are meant to separate the deity from its power actually (literally) tear the deity apart -- breaking it into powerful component "divine" beings -- so that they face 3 or 4 CR 22-24 creatures. You could then use the Solar stats for one (with proper adjustments to tend to evil and spell selections) and make that the oracle-like one, you could stat up an ancient wyrm for another part (adding a few extra hit-dice) - even if you don't describe it as a dragon, it gives you a good statblock.
Basically, there are a number of CR20+ monsters (mostly devils, demons and angels) that could easily be altered to make a nifty "semi-god".
Since the party's doing the ritual, I would have them "pull" the deity into a "neutral" place -- whether it's a Place of Power on this Plane or a Pocket on the Astral -- basically, something to get it (her?) off its (her?) home turf -- which would further explain why/how they're weakening it enough to stand a chance.
Finally, even after all the parts are beaten, you'll need *something* special to finish it off -- to extinguish the spark of divinity/profanity and immortality -- or to at least imprison the weakened bits into something. It can't just be a matter of having successfully dropped it to -50hp.
At least, that's how I'd handle it -- it might not at all jive with what you were thinking :)
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I've already figured out how to have her "dummied down" so that she can be beat. (enter homebrewed artifacts and buffs that the party's been searching for and collecting since day one) I just was looking more for the actual creation of the Deity.
I have a loose idea as to what I'd like: Lich Oracle, riding a dragon, with four other monsters to round out her party. Not 100% sure how to balance this, though. The characters are a bit OP with said artifacts and buffs, so I don't think that a CR 20+ will be an issue. I want her to be the "most powerful", with her mount second, and the other four basically as fodder/irritation for the PC's to deal with. However, the creation and balance of the party is what I'm having trouble with.
The theme that I've been using for her is as follows: Chaotic Evil, having sided with all the other Chaotic Deities to combine the planes so as to create the ultimate chaos. These mergings have been represented by domes (yes, almost like Reboot's games) where the PC's have to fight monsters/solve puzzles/etc to "defeat" the dome, and nullify that foothold. They've destroyed nearly all the crossover points, and they're now heading towards the final area where they'll put this Deity in her place, so to speak.
I'm not too worried about the actual rules of how Deities fight, or how they're not able to be destroyed, yada yada. The twist to counter the "basic ruels" is, *if* they beat her, one of them will have to take her place. Kinda sounds weak stated like this, but within the context of the story line and how the PC's are, it makes sense.
*edit*
Tilnar, your idea of "tearing the deity apart" actually quite fits with what I was thinking of. Awesome explanation. And sorry, I should have included a bit more information in the OP.
Old school 3rd edition D&D Deities as a rule of thumb had 20 outsider hit dice, 20 levels in two different classes plus a bunch of specific, unique and above all powerfull abilities.
Deity creation general rule, if it has hit points the players will try to kill it.
If you want the players to be able to do so, give it stats. If not, don't.
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@ Mirrel - Yes, I'm aware of that. However, I'd like to stay away from having a CR 60. Kind of defeats the purpose.
@ Mogart - Killing her is the point. The stats 'n such are what I'm looking for help on. What CR should the encounter be? How do I balance the CR's of all these "parts" of her while still creating a realistic challenge?
Well you can still use that as a baseline for it's normal level of power and the various homebrewed artifacts/buffs you said the party have been collecting to strip it of enough of it's powers for the party to destroy it.
No problem. Let us know how you get on.
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Depends upon what you want from the encounter.
Will the PCs be killing the deity for good?
If so I would create a 60HD+ character using rules from Deities & Demigods from 3.5 and then let the players apply their buffs and nerfs to the deity and fight it out from there. It is, in my opinion, the only way to set up so the PCs do not feel cheated. They get to beat a real deity, not a washed out version made to be beaten deity.
If the deity is not expected to be killed for good, then make it a 25HD avatar of the deity. The PCs can weaken the main deity and knock out its mortal representative for a long while. This one is easier to make than the real deal.
But which ever version you go, I would make sure the PCs do not feel cheapened. If you want them to kill the deity out right, then you almost have to make a 60+HD monster for them to fight. Otherwise, really no matter how you sugar coat it, it really is not a deity...
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This might help. Currently unless I miss my mark Treerazor is the highest CR PF has - CR-25 Base the powers of your god on him. Stats / saves and so forth...
He is a Nascent Demon and i have listed trait below.
Nascent Demon Lord Traits
A nascent demon lord is a powerful demon that has not yet made the full transition from unique demon to full demon lord of an Abyssal realm. Treerazer’s current exile to the Material Plane prevents him from achieving full demon lord status. Yet he still possesses the typical nascent demon lord traits, which are similar to those possessed by a typical demon, only more potent, as summarized here.
Immunity to death effects, electricity, charm and compulsion effects, and poison.
Resistance to acid 30, cold 30, and fire 30.
Summon (Sp) Once per day, nascent demon lords can summon any demon or combination of demons whose total combined CR is 20 or lower. This ability always works, and is equivalent to a 9th-level spell.
Telepathy 300 ft.
Aligned Strike A nascent demon lord’s natural weapons, as well as any weapon it wields, are treated as chaotic, epic, and evil for the purpose of resolving damage reduction.
Grant Spells Nascent demon lords can grant spells to their worshipers. Granting spells does not require any specific action on the nascent demon lord’s behalf. All nascent demon lords grant access to the domains of Chaos and Evil—in addition, they grant access to two other domains and a favored weapon that vary according to the nascent demon lord’s themes and interests.
As for location, your setup tells me a rather obvious answer. To begin the chaos confluence, the conspirators folded their own divine realms together. From this, they sent beachheads, but these were destroyed. However, more are growing all the time, so to defeat her plan, the heroes will need to go into the chaos, suitably protected of course, which would require artifact level magic so she doesn't just dispel their wards. The protection also would not be absolute, bringing random pain every so often just from the environment.
My thought is that maybe the CE Deity was the spearhead of the Chaos warping and that she has a large portion of her divinity tied into it. She's focused so much of her divinity into warping the planes together, she has made herself mortal. It may even be that the center of the warping is her home plane, and as such, it no longer exists, therefore, if she dies anywhere, she's dead for good. IIRC Gods can, typically, only be killed on their home plane, so that little problem would be solved.
However, Treerazer is not Paizo's highest stated creature, Achaekek is. Achaekek is more powerful than a Demi-god, but not as powerful as a true God. His role is to hunt down those that seek Divinity and kill them before they succeed. He is completely incapable of harming a true deity. I would compare Achaekek and Treerazer for stats and abilities and maybe come somewhere in the middle. Keep in mind, Achaekek was stated out in 3.5, not Pathfinder RPG, so Achaekek's stats may no longer apply.
You might create something approximately equal to Achaekek in power, and then apply the Parties debuffs to make it an adequate challenge.
Another thing to keep in mind is something I made a best judgement call on. Page 60 of the Bestiary states:
A balor lord is typically a CR 21 to CR 25 monster (a range shared with the various unique nascent demon lords, with the range of CR 26 and above being the domain of the demon lords themselves)"
And Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Lords of Chaos: Book of the Damned, Vol. 2 states:
With the exception of Lamashtu, all of the demon lords presented here are demigods, and as such could be fought and slain by powerful mortal heroes. Direct confrontations with demon lords are a matter for truly epic-level play, for these creatures could well have CR scores in the high 30s.
So a Demi-God should have a range of CR 26 to 40. Here I must reiterate my statement that Achaekek very well could be updated to higher level stats at a later date, so he should only be a basis not a hard and fast rule.
Anyway, it looks like you've got some serious world building a head of you. I don't envy you at the moment, but maybe you could take notes and post them here as I myself will be in your shoes one day. I plan on running a campaign in which the party eventually takes on Charon the Daemon Lord of Abaddon, and arguably the most powerful of all Daemon Lords.
When in need of a Deity to kill I suggest the old Call of Cthuluhu books. They are loaded with old gods and super tough big nastys. I would just ignore some of their godly powers like, "as a free action kill 1d6 players." Just a basic attack will be more than enough to crush the typical player.
If you were doing plot twists you could have something posing as a god, then you could make the encounter as tough as you want, tailoring the god to the current level of your players.
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Honestly, it is your game, and your decision as to whether gods, godlings, demigods and demon lords can be killed, and by what level of PCs they can be killed.
That said, if you want a really epic encounter where 20th level PCs feel like they took on a god, I recommend the following, which I would set as roughly CR 26:
Effectively, this character is a complicated gestalt build of an Human Lich Oracle 20 (CR 22) and a 20 HD generic "outsider". It is built with a 20 point array and has at least PC wealth by level, before you count any artifacts it wields. As a (presumably evil) godling, it has one "villain point" per 10 HD, allowing it to execute the following ability:
Epic Plot Protection (Ex): The villain is too important to die yet! When the creature is dropped to 0 or fewer HP, or is subject to a death effect or otherwise slain outright, it may spend a villain point as an immediate action to prevent itself from dying. Time seems to stutter for a moment as the villain heals 150 damage and instantly relocates to a location within one move action. (If necessary, treat this as a 1 round Time Stop during which a beneficial Heal/Harm spell is applied to the character at CL 20th, and then the character physically moves). If the BBEG has no villain points, she is incapable of activating this ability. Generally activation of this ability is accompanied by a brief recounting of the thing the villain did to earn the villain point. i.e. "Mortal Fool! I have slaughtered legions of angels, what chance do you have?" or "Such a wound cannot end that which has blackened the suns of worlds beyond your ken!"
The reason I suggest this instead of just flatly making the villain immune to darn near everything is that this way, the villain is expending resources when your PCs kill it to keep itself in the fight. Also, this follows the idea of the Rule of Three / Three Strikes You're Out, which is a concept that a lot of PCs can get behind if they understand what is going on. Plus, it is a lich, you would have to kill it twice anyway, right? :-)
Godling Lich
A godling lich is effectively a gestalt of Outsider HD with a Human Lich, gaining most of the traits of both types, and possessing the better HD, BAB, Saves and skill points per level from either Outsider or Oracle. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to go ahead and post all the relevant information about the creature here:
Gestalt Outsider/Undead Oracle
• d10 Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
• Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will. (Or all three good saves, since it says "usually" you could get good Fort and Ref from Outsider and good Will from Oracle)
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Fly, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), (history), (planes), (religion), Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme (plus any bonus class skills from oracle mysteries or feats).
Traits
• No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
• Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
• Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
• Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.(* the Epic Plot Protection ability can prevent such destruction however)
• Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life.
Short version: 20d10+(Cha mod per level) HP, +20 BAB, all base saves +12, 6+Int skillpoints with the combined class skill lists of the Outsider type and the Oracle class. All Undead traits, but instead of dying at 0, it can use Epic Plot Protection as above, and unlike an undead, it cannot be returned to "the living creature it once was", but rather has the whole "Body/soul is a single unit" feature of the outsider type with regards to coming back to life via magic. Although the creature is theoretically a lich, the unified body/soul bit from Outsider trumps that.
If you want to be especially evil, you may consider the idea that when destroyed, the Lich can simply return to her home plane and reform there as if the entire plane were her phylactery and/or she was a summoned outsider, but this is counter-intuitive to making sure the PCs can feasibly kill her permanently. Alternately, her phylactery could also be a specific piece fused with the plane that could be smashed or disintegrated by the PCs, resulting in the plane's implosion and her final death. Nothing says "Epic" like beating on reality until it breaks ;-)
You may also consider allowing the godling to have a wider variety of spells at hand than a normal oracle would. As a godling, she may be capable of granting 2-3 cleric domains to its followers. Add all the spells on these domain lists to her spells known for free. Heck, treat all basic cleric/oracle spells as known, and then add the spells from these domain lists that aren't on the normal cleric/oracle list as well. Options are power, but actions are also going to limit how many of these spells get used, so your players may not notice (and if you do, you can always point out that the cleric followers of the godling had to be getting their powers from her somehow, right?).
Finally, if after all this you still think the result is too squishy for CR 26, change the Lich DR to /epic and maybe add some more Outsider HD or another class.
Hope this helps
Robert "Heck with Canon, Killing Gods Should Be Possible" Ranting
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Wow. Some really good ideas, guys, thanks!
To answer a couple questions, *yes* this is the end of the campaign and *yes* they will be killing the Deity.
WhipShire, thanks for the idea! Not sure if I want to base her on a Demon, but it's something to reference to if I get too lost.
Tels, love your ideas on the plane and her having so much invested in it that she's mortal. Could have that tie in with the Artifacts somehow, such as they deny her drawing upon those powers once the fight is on. Or something to that effect. (unlike the buffs granted them, the players still don't quite know what the artifacts do yet, so I have a little play room)
Chobe, I have considered using an Avitar. However, the PC's have expressed interest in killing this evil, evil Deity, so I've decided to allow it. (that, and I really like the idea of the campaign ending on this note)
Sissyl, I really like that idea. I'll have to incorporate something like that, and tie it in with Tels' idea.
Mogart, Cthulhu FTW. I'll have a look-see through there, and see if anything catches my eye.
Robert, awesome. That's exactly what I was looking for, and thanks for the easy-reference stats. Not too sure about the Villain Points, though. We don't play with the heroic points, but I'll see. She *is* a Lich Goddess, so defeating her twice was in the plans. This may be the perfect mechanic for that.
Once I have some more things solidified a bit more, I'll put the info up on here for the ones who have requested it.
Thanks again for the suggestions! They're all helping the picture come together.