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Godwin (pt1):
First of all with Clint and Lee, I think the trigger condition on their actions would be to shoot if shot at, not to shoot if "ready to be shot at".
It doesn't matter in the end whether you are shot at as a standard action in your opponent's turn or as a readied action whenever that readied action is taken, if you are shot at then your readied action gets triggered.
(Unless, of course, your reading of the Ready rule is that the trigger that you specify for your readied action has to be that precise)
Wraithstrike:
The point about readying to trip a mover isn't quite right, IMVHO, because the trip is *resolved* before the move is *resolved*. Although the trip starts after some of the move has taken place, it finishes first.
Godwin (pt2):
Scenario 3 is, as you say, the equivalent to the Clint and Lee scenario, and I don't quite get your solution. "B" readies to attack "A" if "A" attacks "B". So "A" doesn't attack, he moves in and readies to attack "B" (presumably under the same conditions). "B" just delays at this point, since his ready action wont expire until he takes another action. "A" can dance a jig and run around him in circles at this point if he wants to, as long as he doesn't actually attack "B" then "B" just maintains his readied status.
karkon:
Ultimately, as it stands, this isn't really that important, more of an interesting conundrum really. However I think it highlights some problems in the logic of the system which I, personally, would like to resolve, especially if I can sort out some other illogicalities at the same time. I am busy writing something up now which I'll post up as a house rule later on for anyone who shares my interest in this sort of thing.
Richard
Wait, seriously? This situation is awesome and thematic. A contest of wills, Mexican standoff style. Tense and dramatic!
Why would you want to get rid of that?
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Godwin (pt2):Scenario 3 is, as you say, the equivalent to the Clint and Lee scenario, and I don't quite get your solution. "B" readies to attack "A" if "A" attacks "B". So "A" doesn't attack, he moves in and readies to attack "B" (presumably under the same conditions). "B" just delays at this point, since his ready action wont expire until he takes another action. "A" can dance a jig and run around him in circles at this point if he wants to, as long as he doesn't actually attack "B" then "B" just maintains his readied status.
karkon:
Ultimately, as it stands, this isn't really that important, more of an interesting conundrum really. However I think it highlights some problems in the logic of the system which I, personally, would like to resolve, especially if I can sort out some other illogicalities at the same time. I am busy writing something up now which I'll post up as a house rule later on for anyone who shares my interest in this sort of thing.
Regarding the bolded section: B's ready action expires at the start of his next turn. He must choose to renew it or choose do something else. "A" can't just dance around him because B is not frozen in the ready state. It sounds like you don't quite understand ready actions or their initiative consequences.
Previously, you said it was a problem in the rules and you are writing house rules to correct it. Now it is an "interesting conundrum"? You don't seem to understand the actual rule and you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
On round 2, it returns to Clint first. At this point, His readied action EXPIRES. This is important because the lower initiative ready action, IS STILL GOING.
This. Exactly this. This is why it's not an issue, I tried to write something up along these lines earlier, but I couldn't articulate it well so I scrapped it.
When the second person readies to attack the first, time doesn't pause. It keeps going. The initiative cycles back around. Each person has to deliberately choose to keep readying, when their turn comes up. Since both turns never come up at the same time, one is always readied while the other can choose to do something entirely different that doesn't trigger the readied action.
A: "I ready to attack B when he attacks me."
B: "I ready to attack A when he attacks me."
A: "I can't attack without being attacked first. So instead, I'll move away / drink a potion / attempt a disarm / call for help / etc. None of which trigger his readied action."
The rules do not work well, they are in fact impossible:
...you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
My action: Attack
Condition: he casts a spellHis action: Standard action
Resolution per rules: My attack happens before he starts his action but how can that be when I specified his action as the trigger?!
The solution is, of course, to rule that the readied action and the interrupted action start simultaneously but the readied action finishes just before the interrupted action (which in the OPs example will not make a difference) unless the interrupted action takes a much shorter time than the readied action (attack action vs free action).
This way you can handle all the situations in the given examples and avoid all the crap like in the OP.
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Excuse me, guys, but RAW says:
"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."
There is nothing here about a readied action expiring when your initiative comes back round again. If you don't take an action, you stay readied.
Note:
"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act."
Not, incidentally, how I see how the conundrum is resolved even if you do "re-ready".
If you take my (better) example of two gladiators in an arena, each with 1 hp, you have no other recourse but to kill your opponent.
Of course there are role-playing answers to this, but that really isn't my point!
Richard
It seems to me that you have two stubborn fighters. That is not a system flaw. If they choose to sit there and stare at each other that is on them. It is no different that two people in real life daring the other to cross the line.
The rules state that a readied action takes a standard action.
They also state that on your turn you get to decide how to use your actions. They never say a readied action subverts that.
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It takes a standard action to ready it, but then:
"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
Well, he wont be able to continue his action if you've just wiped away his last hit points, so you do effectively subvert him.
Richard
I was saying the ready action does not hold you to whatever condition you set for the ready action for the rest of eternity because that is what I thought you were trying to say.
If you are saying it allows for people to, in theory, wait forever then I am not worried about that since it is not a real issue. Even if the players are being unrealistically stubborn the GM has to come in and do something like call for constitution checks to see who can stay awake the longest.
They also have to eat and so on.
If I knew someone has vorpal sword I am not going to fight them straight up anyway.
There are so many ways in which this is a non-issue that it is not even worth a house-rule.
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Well, no, the general point is the problem you have if you need to get your action completed before your opponent's, assuming you don't know whether he has his action readied.
Obviously if you know he isn't readied you just get on and do it. If you don't know, you have to ready. If he doesn't know either, he has to do the same.
You can think of all sorts of situations where this could happen. Imagine the two of you are standing in front of teleportal that's only going to let one more person through, and you want it to be you.
Of course, there are role-playing answers, and circumstance specific answers which have nothing to do about which one of you dashes for the portal first, but the fact remains that in its pure form the problem is insoluble.
Richard
I disagree as I have been said in my post.
Because RAW nothing prevents you to specify an opponents action as a trigger condition you can always "react" and finish your action before he even starts his action.
So RAW you could "react" to your opponent blinking an eye (a free action) with a 5-foot step and an attack and ALL of it would be resolved BEFORE the opponent had even STARTED to blink and on top it doesn't matter if you had 8 Dex and your opponent had 30, you would always be faster...
Excuse me, guys, but RAW says:
"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."
There is nothing here about a readied action expiring when your initiative comes back round again. If you don't take an action, you stay readied.
Your turn comes up. It's now your action. You have to do something. D&D doesn't provide a mechanism to pass your turn - the closest is delaying. Therefore, your choices are:
1) Take an action to ready again.2) Take an action to do something useful.
3) Take an action to stand there doing nothing.
4) Choose to delay your action until later. (This cancels your readied action, since you can't both ready and delay.)
Your turn doesn't end until you act, even if that action is explicitly doing nothing.
Well, no, the general point is the problem you have if you need to get your action completed before your opponent's, assuming you don't know whether he has his action readied.
Obviously if you know he isn't readied you just get on and do it. If you don't know, you have to ready. If he doesn't know either, he has to do the same.
You can think of all sorts of situations where this could happen. Imagine the two of you are standing in front of teleportal that's only going to let one more person through, and you want it to be you.
Of course, there are role-playing answers, and circumstance specific answers which have nothing to do about which one of you dashes for the portal first, but the fact remains that in its pure form the problem is insoluble.
Richard
Actually why would you know someone has readied an action? I am sure if you were supposed to know then the idea of setting for a charge would never happen because the person would never charge you. The general consensus is that you do not know about the readied action.
I can't think of one situation where this would happen in real game that would cause it to stall.I am sure I can think of an in-game solution that does not break down to RP for any situation that you can think of.
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MicMan:
I've no idea what you're disagreeing with. I agree with you that finishing an action before the trigger that makes it happen is an impossibility (without magic). You could argue that RAW doesn't quite say that, although it's a little ambiguous. You could read RAW as saying that your readied action starts *after* the triggering action but *finishes* before it. That, at least, doesn't break the rules of causality, though it does then produce the paradox I've been talking about here.
Bobson:
I disagree with your point (4). RAW says quite specifically that delaying is not an action. Therefore, delaying does not cancel a readied action, since again RAW says quite specifically that readying only finishes when you take an action. In other words, you can ready and delay.
Richard
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Actually why would you know someone has readied an action? I am sure if you were supposed to know then the idea of setting for a charge would never happen because the person would never charge you. The general consensus is that you do not know about the readied action.
I can't think of one situation where this would happen in real game that would cause it to stall.
That supports my argument, surely.
I am sure I can think of an in-game solution that does not break down to RP for any situation that you can think of.
Ok, go for it. Tell me how you would resolve either the two gladiators on their last hit point, each with an action to hit the other should the other try to hit them, or the two guys who are standing right next to the teleportal, each with an action ready to step through the portal if the other person tries to do so first.
Richard
With the portal one whoever wins init would never ready an action they would just go.
As for the gladiator situation you just switch to a ranged weapon like I said before. If nobody swings then starvation, and other conditions come into play, and the situation resolves itself.
Now that I think about it whoever wins init is not going to ready an action anyway, so it never even takes place. So it is like I said, a non-issue.
In order for your scenario to even hope to come up you need to come up with a realistic situation where someone would ready an action, instead of not taking their allocated actions for that round.
I don't think you will come up with anything, except for a corner case and that is what GM's are for.
In short this won't happen at least not in a way that will hold a game up. I can't even think of it happening except for in theory, and it is even hard to imagine then.
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Excuse me, Richard but RAW says:
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
It says clearly that your initiative continues and if you come back to your turn (your action) then you don't get the readied action anymore i.e. it expires. Then you could choose to ready the same action again. Or you can choose to do something else. Read the whole section before you go trying to fix it.
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Now that I think about it whoever wins init is not going to ready an action anyway, so it never even takes place. So it is like I said, a non-issue.
Yes, of course. The whole point is that you arrive at the situation without knowing whether your opponent has an action ready. This has to be some time after initiative has been rolled.
With the gladiators, for example, you could assume that you are the last two combatants in the arena. Initiative was rolled long ago. You do not have ranged weapons, you have no other option but to kill your opponent. You do not have improved disarm or anything else that wont provoke a disastrous AoO if you try to use it. I would imagine that a lot of mass combats could end this way.
Yes, of course, as a GM you can resolve this in some other fashion.
Richard
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It says clearly that your initiative continues and if you come back to your turn (your action) then you don't get the readied action anymore i.e. it expires. Then you could choose to ready the same action again. Or you can choose to do something else. Read the whole section before you go trying to fix it.
Will you kindly stop getting personal over this! We're discussing an issue, not each other.
Anyway, nowhere do I see the word "expire", which seems to be what all this argument is about.
"If you come to your next action ..." - well, you don't, because you delay.
" If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up ..." - again, you don't.
The bit that's missing is something along the lines of "if you haven't taken your readied action before you get to your regular turn, then you lose it". Maybe it should say that, or maybe not, but in any case, it doesn't. So if you ready an action and then delay, you continue readying your action.
Richard
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It says clearly that your initiative continues and if you come back to your turn (your action) then you don't get the readied action anymore i.e. it expires. Then you could choose to ready the same action again. Or you can choose to do something else. Read the whole section before you go trying to fix it.Will you kindly stop getting personal over this! We're discussing an issue, not each other.
Anyway, nowhere do I see the word "expire", which seems to be what all this argument is about.
"If you come to your next action ..." - well, you don't, because you delay.
" If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up ..." - again, you don't.
The bit that's missing is something along the lines of "if you haven't taken your readied action before you get to your regular turn, then you lose it". Maybe it should say that, or maybe not, but in any case, it doesn't. So if you ready an action and then delay, you continue readying your action.
Richard
I feel like you are not reading the text I bolded:
If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again).
It is fairly clear. If you take a readied action it is only good until your next turn.
Just to make it clear the start of the combat section talks about initiative and rounds and says this:
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions.
You can see that actions=turn in initiative. So when your next action comes up you take your turn. That is why readying is not a problem and has never been a problem.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Ok, go for it. Tell me how you would resolve either the two gladiators on their last hit point, each with an action to hit the other should the other try to hit them, or the two guys who are standing right next to the teleportal, each with an action ready to step through the portal if the other person tries to do so first.
Richard
In the first scenario, I would:
1. Make a Bluff check to distract him long enough for me to bolt to cover and make a Stealth check. Once hidden, I can attack him without concern for readied actions, since he can't react to something he can't see.
2. Hurl my sword at him. It's an improvised weapon, so I'll take a -4 on the attack, but if our ACs are so irrelevant, I should still have a decent chance to hit.
3. Spend 10 rounds of combat to make a Diplomacy or Intimidate check to convince the enemy to surrender or flee.
4. Attack him and eat the readied action, because there's always a 1 in 20 chance he'll miss.
or if I'm GM
5. If it goes for longer than a round or two, I would stop using initiative, since no one is actually fighting at this point. When one player decides it's time to take an aggressive action, they roll for a new initiative again, breaking the deadlock.
The second scenario is even easier.
1. Trip the other guy! That won't trigger his action, and once he's flat on the floor he won't be able to get through the portal with his readied move. What do I care if he attacks me?
2. Bluff to distract, and Stealth through the portal! He can't react to what he can't see.
3. Grapple him, pin him, knock him out or tie him up, and then step through the portal.
4. Reposition check, to put myself between him and the portal.
or if I'm GM.
5. See number 5 above.
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Ok, go for it. Tell me how you would resolve either the two gladiators on their last hit point, each with an action to hit the other should the other try to hit them, or the two guys who are standing right next to the teleportal, each with an action ready to step through the portal if the other person tries to do so first.
Richard
As you have it written it would be a stalemate IF both players continue to take the same readied actions. See Benchak's suggestions on how to resolve this.
HOWEVER, this is a contrived situation. Which player (in either scenario) acts first in initiative order? Lets assume Player A. Given the above scenario, if player A acts first in the initiative order, it is entirely retarded of him to set a readied action. He MUST take a swing or step through the portal if he wants to be victorious. IF he readies, Player B can set a similar readied action to lock him down. The only way out is for one of them to do something different.
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Ok, go for it. Tell me how you would resolve either the two gladiators on their last hit point, each with an action to hit the other should the other try to hit them, or the two guys who are standing right next to the teleportal, each with an action ready to step through the portal if the other person tries to do so first.
Richard
As you have it written it would be a stalemate IF both players continue to take the same readied actions. See Benchak's suggestions on how to resolve this.
HOWEVER, this is a contrived situation. Which player (in either scenario) acts first in initiative order? Lets assume Player A. Given the above scenario, if player A acts first in the initiative order, it is entirely retarded of him to set a readied action. He MUST take a swing or step through the portal if he wants to be victorious. IF he readies, Player B can set a similar readied action to lock him down. The only way out is for one of them to do something different.
Both situations can be resolved. The first one just requires throwing your weapon or doing another attack for which the other person is not readied and boom you win.
The portal one needs the same thing. Guy one trips guy two and then steps through as tripping does not set off the ready action. If the trip fails then guy two can just step through the portal.
Really it comes down to the fact that ready actions do not stop the initiative count nor prevent you from changing your action on your next turn. If we accept that you can see what the other person is readying for (rather than just getting ready for something) then you can do something else.