I am done. I just had to clear that up.
How were you guys going to use the shadow conjuration/evocation features?
I was hoping to use them for utility spells like Phantom Steed, and even Minor Creation and the like.
Also I'd think a reach weapon would be best if you go with a fighter type start class.
I also looked at Sangalor's build, I had thought he took Dual Minded for the +2 to will saves.
Will: +1 (5 fighter levels) +2 (7 SD levels) + 2 (Iron Will) + 2 (Dual Minded) + 5 (cloak) = 12.
Though the indomitable will trait for +1 doesn't seem to be there, so maybe I'm wrong.
I looked at the build again and tuned it to something a bit more of my liking:
SHADOWDANCE FIGHTER LVL 12 CR 11
Male Half-Elf Fighter 5 Shadowdancer 7
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +17
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 22. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 93 (5d10+7d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Defensive Roll (1/day), Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=11); Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +3 Ghost Touch Adamantine Greatsword +19/+14 (2d6+12/17-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +13/+8 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy
Spell-Like Abilities Shadow Call (2/day), Shadow Illusion (3/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 15
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 27 (31 vs. Disarm31 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Critical: Greatsword, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Shield Bash, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack -3/+6, Skill Focus: Heal (Adaptability), Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Traits Classically Schooled, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +16, Bluff +17, Climb +9, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +12, Escape Artist +5, Handle Animal +7, Heal +5, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Perception +17, Perform (Dance) +7, Ride +6, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +21, Survival +5, Swim +7
Languages Common, Elven, Gnome, Halfling
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Elf Blood, Fast Stealth (Ex), Gloves of Dueling, Hide in Plain Sight (Su), Shadow Jump (80'/day) (Su), Slippery Mind (Ex), Summon Shadow (Su)
Combat Gear +1 Mithral Buckler, +2 Fortification, Light, Glamered, Shadow Mithral Breastplate, +3 Ghost Touch Adamantine Greatsword; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +5, Gloves of Dueling, Handy Haversack (empty), Ring of Protection, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) You may make up to 2 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Roll (1/day) (Ex) Once per day, attempt to narrowly escape death.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Hide in Plain Sight (Su) You can use Stealth even while observed, as long as there is a shadow within 10'
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=11) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 11+.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shadow Call (2/day) (Sp) You can use Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability.
Shadow Illusion (3/day) (Sp) You can use Silent Image as a spell-like ability.
Shadow Jump (80'/day) (Su) Travel between shadows instantly.
Slippery Mind (Ex) Two saves vs Enchantment spells.
Summon Shadow (Su) Summon a Shadow to serve as your companion.
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
This build is aimed at taking eldritch heritage: celestial at the next level to get the heavenly fire. Since the shadow has the same alignment as the shadowdancer and this one here is good, he can heal his own shadow (not much, but hey :-)). The resistances etc. are then next to follow.
Also defensive capabilities are strengthened due to keeping the buckler bonus on attacks thanks to improved shield bash.
Reach weapons are an option of course, I dumped falcata for the skill focus here.
Will: +1 (5 fighter levels) +2 (7 SD levels) + 2 (Iron Will) +1 (indomitable faith) + 5 (cloak) = 11.
Due to increased charisma, the dcs are better. Still, phantom steed and such would definitely be good options, and since you can always choose to fail a save utility spells are also an option here.
I replaced the regional trait with the classical schooled trait for spellcraft purposes. Originally I had taken the other since the fighter levels should get a boost for stealth before entering shadowdancer, but that is not really so important.
stuff
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not taking it as if trying to invalidate anything. Obviously we agree on some points and disagree on points.
You're obviously entitled like the class and it's abilities. I'm not going to question that. now to your replies.To sum it up:
The Capstone and shadow are good. Sure. HIPS is also very good, unless your DM is a jerk. Class skills you get are fantastic. I can see people picking 1, 2 or 3 levels. Me, I would never pick 4 levels. The "Shadowjump is not good enough". I can see why people pick 4 levels especially if you only play 12 levels. But if you play to level 16 (most AP stop at level 15 - 17), I would never pick more than 3 levels.
This is also just meant as a reply, not to invalidate yours but to give you some feedback :-)
Now to your build:
I agree with AdAstraGames. Interesting build and you should probably drop The Highlander Trait.
Indomitable Faith is a trait bonus and the eleven +2 bonus vs Enchantments is also a trait bonus. They probably don't stack.
I would drop improved iron will. You have good will saves with Iron will and the eleven +2 bonus vs Enchantments. Eventually you get Slippery mind too.
Step up is a nice feat. It work fine with Combat Reflexes. I'm not sure why you picked Combat Reflexes. You are not using a reach weapon and with UD you can make an AoO even you haven't acted yet.
Trait bonuses don't stack.
Oh, missed your new post.
Drop the car to 13, you don't need more to get the feat.
As for the feat: The ability would not heal the Shadow, but hurt it. I might be wrong but talk with your DM.
My advice, drop the idea. 2 feats (and skill focus heal suck) for 1d4+? healing? better use a wand or a ring of spell storing.
Regardless of char 10, 13 or 15 or 17, the DC will Suck.
To DrDeth
Aww this becomes boring.
Follow me, it's simple.
Target unaware of the attack, gets flat footed condition.
If you are hidden before combat starts when you attack target is surprised.
If you then hide again the target know that you are somewhere and wouldn't be surprised again, so no flat footed EVEN if you are hidden.
This are the rules, very simple. And this is why comes this new rule.
With the new rules hidden character could attack (getting surprise), then hide again, thus removing the dex bonus from their target, and so on, using a "hit and hide" tactic.
What is important is that this new hidden condition doesn't change nothing in the flat footed one.
This is a change I like, in fact I played this way since... the last 20 years. In my game a hidden character get sneak attack even before AD&D.
To Wraithstrike
I never stated that flat footed and loosing dex bonus are the same thing, or that this is the only way to loose dex. I'm just trying to explain that rogue can sneak attack using hide because when combat begins target is flat footed.
Seems that the problem for players was the use of stealth when combat is going. According with this new rules hide in plain sight will be a strong ability like in 3.5.
Speaking about shadow dance builds, I think that the monk class can be a good base. Now with a feat you can add half your non monk level to unarmed strike.
Another interesting base is bard (archeologist or dervish), expecially archeologist. Since he activates his "performance" with a swift action with lingering performance you get a lot of rounds of use :)
Sorry about that Alec. I realized after I posted that I had read it wrong. I do agree that in combat use of stealth needs to be an option, and that is what the "hidden" condition was trying to fix. It was kind of like a pseudo-invisibility. It would also allow us to replicate the movie scenes. I think the issue is doing so without involving facing, and how to tell when someone is being observed. I do think it can work though. Once RGPSS is over they will probably devote more time to the issue.
I think that the SS should have gotten more shadow based abilities, but that is another thread altogether.
No problem :)
I think that shadow dancer should be changed a little, too.
For example, my bard build permits to cast shadow at least 3 times a day. Good, but shadowdancer should do it by himself :)
The shadow (THE SHADOW!? lol )can be very strong. It has half your hp, but likely will take half damage from attacks. Facing a character of your level you can easy give 1d6 strenght damage per round. Depending on target's str, 2 or 3 round and can be over.
With 5 level of archeologist and lingering performance you can multiply your performance rounds x 3, and they give +2 bonus. Not so bad.
@wraithstrike. What is SS?
@Sangalor: For some odd reason I can save my edited post so edit:
"The Blinding ability is very good, but again only in dim light and you are a 3/4 class with self no buffing ability. How often are you going to crit, and crit in dim light?
BTW, I'm not even sure it is possible to 'crit' or sneak attack someone in dim light unless you get the feat Shadow Strike or have lowlight vision?
I meant SD(shadow dancer). It was a typo.
PS:The edit and delete functions are not cooperating. Sometimes you have to try several times.
Crit is not influenced by concealment.
Sneak attack yes. If you got darkvision, no problem
Low light vision don't reduce the concealment, but when there's a light you increase the radius in wich you can see. You should need a feat to sneak attack someone that is concealed.
As a GM I let my players sneak attack even if target is concealed (but not total concealment). I think that is strange that a human rogue can't sneak attack in the darkness :) Since rogue is not a class that can waste feats, simply I houseruled in that way.
To DrDeth
Aww this becomes boring.
Follow me, it's simple.
Target unaware of the attack, gets flat footed condition.
If you are hidden before combat starts when you attack target is surprised.
If you then hide again the target know that you are somewhere and wouldn't be surprised again, so no flat footed EVEN if you are hidden.
This are the rules, very simple. And this is why comes this new rule.
Exactly what I have been saying. Flat-footed only exists in the first or suprise round of combat.
I have a Shadowdancer in PFS who just hit level 12. Bob Jonquet recently asked me about him after playing him at Gamicon. Here's the relevant part of my message back to him, including a fairly detailed (but unorganized) breakdown of my character at level 11.
Human Ranger 3/Rogue 1/Fighter 2(Weapon Master)/Shadowdancer 5
Strength 18 (14 +4 Belt) 5 points
Dexterity 23 (17 +2Human +2Ioun Stone +1 level 4 +1 level 8) 13 Points
Constitution 12 | 2 Points
Intelligence 12 | 2 Points
Wisdom 12 | 2 Points
Charisma 7 | -4 Points
20pt buy.
AC 26 (+4 from Mobility)
9 Armor (Celestial Armor)
6 Dex
1 Dodge Feat
Saves
Fort +11 (8 Base, 1 Ability Mod, 2 Cloak)
Reflex +16 (8 Base, 6 Ability Mod, 2 Clock)
Will +6 (3 Base, 1 Ability Mod, 2 Cloak)
Initiative +9 (+6 Dex +1 Cracked Dusty Rose Prism +2 Reactionary Trait) +2 in urban terrain.
HP: 87
10: Level 1 Ranger
12: 2 More levels of Ranger
5: 1 level of Rogue
12: 2 Levels in Fighter
25: 5 Levels of Shadowdancer
+11 Con 12
+11 Toughness
+1 Favored Class Fighter
Skills: 84 Ranks
18 3xRanger 6
4 2xFighter 2
30 5xShadowdancer 6
8 1xRogue 8
11 Int 12
11 Human
+1 Favored Class Fighter
+23 Acrobatics (+6 Dex, +11 Ranks, +3 Class, +5 Boots -2ACP)
+21 Disable Device (+6 Dex, +11 Ranks, +3 Class, +2 MW Tools, +1 Trapfinding, -2ACP)
+13 Knowledge Engineering (+1 Int, +9 Ranks, +3 Class)
+13 Knowledge Dungeoneering (+1 Int, +9 Ranks, +3 Class)
+20 Perception (+1 Wis, +11 Ranks, +3 Class, +5 Goggles) +2Urban Terrain, +1 vs traps, +2 vs human
Perform Dance 2 Ranks
+13 Profession Siege Engineer (+1 Int, +9 Ranks, +3 Class)
+5 Sense Motive (+1 Wis, +1 Ranks, +3 Class)
+19 Stealth (+6 Dex, +11 Ranks, +3 Class, -2 ACP) +2Urban Terrain
+15 Survival (+1 Wis, +9 Ranks, +3 Class + 1 Track) +2 Urban Terrain, +2 vs human
Items of Note + ~Cost:
+1 Vicious Humanbane Elven Curved Blade 16,400(Proficiency from Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid 1,500)
Cloak of Resist +2 4,000
MW Composite Longbow (STR 3) 2PA
Celestial Armor 22,400 gp
Elven Boots (+5 Acrobatics) 2,500
Eyes of the Eagle (+5 Perception) 2,500
Belt of Strength (+4 Strength) 16,000
Deep Red Sphere Ioun Stone (+2 Dex) 8,000
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism 500
Scarab, Golembane 2,500
Ring of Delayed Doom (1 Charge) 5,000
3 Doses Purple Worm Poison 2,100
83,400gp + ~11,000gp cash + other minor stuff like wayfinder, arrows, alchemist fire, rope, PA consumables etc. I'm too lazy to add up my gold earned but 94,400 seems to be in the right ballpark. (88k level 11 - 108k level 12)
Level / Feat+Choice Progression
1 Ranger / Dodge + Mobility (Favored Enemy: Human)
2 Rogue (Sneak Attack +1d6)
3 Fighter / Weapon Finesse + Combat Reflexes
4 Ranger / Power Attack (2 Handed style)
5 Ranger / Spring Attack
6 Shadowdancer
7 Shadowdancer / Toughness
8 Shadowdancer / Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
9 Shadowdancer / Vital Strike
10 Fighter / Improved Crit
11 Extra Rogue Talent (Expert Leaper, fall further and always running start)
Attack: +1 Vicious Human Bane Elven Curved Blade
+13 [+8 BAB, +6 Dex, +1 Enhancement bonus, -2 Power Attack (frequent but not 100%)] (+4 to hit vs humans, also I had an extra +2 for the first half of your table from Greater Magic Weapon)
Damage 1d10+16 [4str bonus x1.5, +1 enhancement, +9 Power Attack] +2d6 Vicious (1d6 to myself) +1d6 Sneak Attack. +2d6+4 vs humans. Leadblades increases base weapon die from 1d10 to 2d8. Vital Strike gives double base dice. Power Attack gives -3 to hit, +9 to damage (Included).
So Power Attack-Vital Strike vs a human I'm flanking with lead blades up is: +19 for 4d8+3d6+20 (1d6 to myself) Critting on a 15-20 for an extra 2d8+20 bonus.
When I built the character vital strike and spring attack worked together. Even though I can't use them at the same time sometimes spring attack solves various problems, like how to attack things like purple worms etc.
I originally had heirloom weapon, but swapped it for reactionary with the rules change.
Other thoughts: One of the problems with shadow dancer is it's most obviously entered by rogues and it doesn't advance their sneak attack and has a lot of wasted overlap. Going into it mostly from ranger I got to make use of evasion etc.
Level 12 brings Zapa to the 3rd level of weapon master fighter and another point of dex. This also lets him get the gloves of Dueling so his attack bonus will go up by 5 (+1 Dex, +1 Bab, +1 Weapon Training, +2 Gloves of Dueling) and his damage will go up by 3 (+1 Weapon Training, +2 Gloves of Dueling)
Oh, missed your new post.
Drop the car to 13, you don't need more to get the feat.
I would take the improved eldritch heritage feat afterwards which requires cha 15. There are nice abilities :-)
As for the feat: The ability would not heal the Shadow, but hurt it. I might be wrong but talk with your DM.
Sorry, you are wrong :-) From the description:
Heavenly Fire (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash a ray of heavenly fire as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Against evil creatures, this ray deals 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. This damage is divine and not subject to energy resistance or immunity. This ray heals good creatures of 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. A good creature cannot benefit from your heavenly fire more than once per day. Neutral creatures are neither harmed nor healed by this effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Note that it says nowhere the creatures have to be living or that it is positive energy or such. That is why I said switch the Shadowdancer's alignment to good, then the shadow has it as well and is healed by it. That and it can be used to heal/stabilize allies at range. It is not much, but it adds yet another useful ability to the shadowdancer: Healing, at range.
My advice, drop the idea. 2 feats (and skill focus heal suck) for 1d4+? healing? better use a wand or a ring of spell storing.Regardless of char 10, 13 or 15 or 17, the DC will Suck.
Well, only if you look at it offensively, you do not factor in feats like ability focus, headbands or other magic items. And there are more than enough opponents with sucky will saves :-)
@wraithstrike. What is SS?
@Sangalor: For some odd reason I can save my edited post so edit:
"The Blinding ability is very good, but again only in dim light and you are a 3/4 class with self no buffing ability. How often are you going to crit, and crit in dim light?BTW, I'm not even sure it is possible to 'crit' or sneak attack someone in dim light unless you get the feat Shadow Strike or have lowlight vision?
Crits are not effected by dim light, precision damage like sneak attack is. The build I provided will - theoretically - threaten a crit 20% of the time. This is quite good, especially with buffs :-)
That is one of the reasons why I feel that though rogue feels like a natural base class to get into shadow dancer, the lack of sneak attack progression more kind of supports other classes like the simple fighter - which I took here - better.
I find that Paladin synergizes with it nicely and makes for a fun combination of abilities. And a lot of "Woah, never seen one of them before..." responses. :)
...
Indomitable Faith is a trait bonus and the eleven +2 bonus vs Enchantments is also a trait bonus. They probably don't stack.
...
Wrong, read the description in half-elf:
Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
The elven immunities' bonus is a "racial" bonus, not a "trait" bonus, so it stacks :-)
Core books page 24:
Half-Elf Racial Traits: Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against
enchantment spells and effects.
It is a trait bonus. A racial trait bonus. But talk to your GM/DM. He/she is the boss.
Exactly what I have been saying. Flat-footed only exists in the first or suprise round of combat.To DrDeth
Aww this becomes boring.
Follow me, it's simple.
Target unaware of the attack, gets flat footed condition.
If you are hidden before combat starts when you attack target is surprised.
If you then hide again the target know that you are somewhere and wouldn't be surprised again, so no flat footed EVEN if you are hidden.
This are the rules, very simple. And this is why comes this new rule.
You are flat footed until you don't act for the first time, so it exists in surprise round and in the first round until your action. Some feats let you give this condition to foes. Good thing for a rogue, he can, for example, make a charge in the surprise round, then if he acts first make a full attack. All sneak attacks. Not bad :)
@TriOmegaZero
Traits APG:
Basic Traits: Combat Traits, Faith Traits, Magic Traits, Social Traits
Campaign Traits
Race Traits
Regional Traits
Religion Traits
Sure, I might be wrongt but I'm not the ruler. Any player should talk to her/his DM/GM.
When I got the time I will ask about it in the rules forum and hit the FAQ
Those are categories listed for purposes of organizing. Each trait provides a trait bonus. That is no racial trait bonus.
If you pick a trait form the race section, and one from the religion section they don't stack because they are both trait bonuses.
ETA:
Here is the clarification, right here in the rules:
It is important to note that these racial traits are not the same as the trait rules found in Chapter 8 of this book (and originating in other Pathfinder products).
Leaving my post here as I know it's frowned upon to delete what's already been submitted.
------------------
Zark, this has been clarified before, by devs (check through Sean Reynolds' posts, I think he was the one who said it). And anyway, this should be pretty clear via the way the rules are organized anyway. This is not an "up to your GM" thing. These are the rules, and the rules are clear.
TRAITS (including race traits) and RACIAL TRAITS are two different things. Why they couldn't come up with more creative vocabulary, I don't know, but there we are. Borrowing from Rich Baker, compare "Spell Level" with "Character Level." They are two different things, even though they are both "levels." But you wouldn't swap one for the other.
Racial traits are the abilities you get simply from having a race. They are the things like elven immunity to sleep and orc ferocity. You will note that all the bonuses racial traits grant are called "racial bonuses" NOT trait bonuses. Look up "types of bonuses" to see that "racial bonuses" are a valid bonus type.
Traits are the things that are the optional rules in the APG, that give you minor boons to help flesh out your background. Yes, there are "race traits" which are traits you can take if you are a member of a certain race, but they are NOT THE SAME THING. Racial traits are core features in the core rulebook. Traits, including race traits, are an option. The bonuses granted by traits, including race traits, are usually "trait bonuses."
"Trait bonuses" and "race bonuses" are two different things. Racial traits and race traits are two different things. If you're still not clear on this, I suggest you search the forum on the subject with those keywords, as you will probably find something that clears it up for you.
@DeathQuaker and others. Thanks for the clarification. For me, as a non native English person, when the rules are using the same term for two things can be very confusing.
DeathQuaker, your post was very pedagogical (hope that is the right word). Thanks again :-)
Heck the HIPS ability is useless to do the Batman disappearing act.
Say you have 4 or 5 people around you, and you somehow meet the HIPS requirements.
What are the odds one of them won't beat your opposed stealth check?
Just ruins the mystery.
"What happened? Where did he go?"
"You didn't see it? He just kinda hunched over with his hands held by his head like he was a cat, and tiptoed at half speed around the corner. Darnedest thing I ever saw."
"After him!"
Best post. Ever.