The RAW says they can't do so, and I think the RAI is what the RAW is. Sometimes RAI does not match RAW. This time I think they line up perfectly well.
The "I" can be interpreted or intended depending on who you ask.
If someone can come up with some logic to refute my above points that is supported by the rules I will change my stance on RAW and probably RAI also.
It is fair for them to be so exclusive when they(the devs) don't mean to do so. Normally when they intend for an option to be open they would say something like "cast dimension door or use any ability that references it". They called out a specific ability. Now if the shadowdancer had come out in the APG, and the Dimensional Assualt feat was in the core book then you could argue that the only reason the shadowdancer ability was excluded was because it did not exist. In this case however the both the monk and shadowdancer were already in existance, and only one of them was called out. They specifically called the monk ability out rather than using verbage that would account for both the monk and the shadowdancer so I can't see this as an oversight where the RAW does not match RAI.
I agree with you on this one. In all other similar situations (e.g. archaelogist luck qualifying for feats like lingering performance) a specific reference is made that you are allowed to qualify for feats, prestige classes etc.
RAW is usually pretty simple: Unless the exact terms are used to describe a feature, you do not have that feature, thus you do not qualify. "Shadow Jump" is not equal to "Abundant Step", so you do not qualify. Same with the dimension door spell requirements, you cannot cast it, so you do not qualify for it.Also, note that Shadow Jump has limitations the other options do not have, so it is a reduced version, so I also think here RAI is not fulfilled.
I would not allow Shadow Jump to qualify for this feat line in my games unless I can be shown a dev statement or an errata or some kind of argument that has not been brought up yet.
But hey, it's your game, you can rule as you wish :-) For example, for now I allow stealth to qualify for sneak attack... :-)
I never said it was gamebreaking. I personally think it is fine to houserule it in.
I know that for the monk there was a lot of complaining about how its ability made it so that it could not get any other actions after using it. That is why I am assuming it got a pass. Had the shadowdancer gotten as much attention it probably would have been allowed also.
As I said before if they wanted any similar ability to work then why be so specific? Those guys know the rules a better than I do so I am sure it was no accident, and myself and RD picked up on it pretty quickly once I looked at it anyway. One of the 3 rules devs would have caught it, and made it an open statement instead of a closed(specific) statement if they had meant for any similar ability to qualify.
It would be like if I made feat saying that only elves and halfings qualified when I meant for any humanoid to qualify for it. That is a very unlikely mistake.
My point is what about the Shadowdancer is so strong (or whatever) that they were purposefully excluded from this line of feats?
What's the gamebreaking combo you can do with one? That is what I want to know. I want to know the reason they made the verbiage the way they did....
For example, a monk has to burn ki points to do an abundant step. Though he can jump a larger distance at once, the shadow jump can be used more easily to do hit and run tactics: do lots of small jumps to jump away and back in. Due to the limitations of a monk's ki pool you can do a lot more ambush style attacks with a shadow dancer than with a monk.
So this would be one thing that can be pretty gamebreaking IMO.
The RAW says they can't do so, and I think the RAI is what the RAW is. Sometimes RAI does not match RAW. This time I think they line up perfectly well.
The "I" can be interpreted or intended depending on who you ask.
If someone can come up with some logic to refute my above points that is supported by the rules I will change my stance on RAW and probably RAI also.
It is fair for them to be so exclusive when they(the devs) don't mean to do so. Normally when they intend for an option to be open they would say something like "cast dimension door or use any ability that references it". They called out a specific ability. Now if the shadowdancer had come out in the APG, and the Dimensional Assualt feat was in the core book then you could argue that the only reason the shadowdancer ability was excluded was because it did not exist. In this case however the both the monk and shadowdancer were already in existance, and only one of them was called out. They specifically called the monk ability out rather than using verbage that would account for both the monk and the shadowdancer so I can't see this as an oversight where the RAW does not match RAI.I agree with you on this one. In all other similar situations (e.g. archaelogist luck qualifying for feats like lingering performance) a specific reference is made that you are allowed to qualify for feats, prestige classes etc.
RAW is usually pretty simple: Unless the exact terms are used to describe a feature, you do not have that feature, thus you do not qualify. "Shadow Jump" is not equal to "Abundant Step", so you do not qualify. Same with the dimension door spell requirements, you cannot cast it, so you do not qualify for it.
Also, note that Shadow Jump has limitations the other options do not have, so it is a reduced version, so I also think here RAI is not fulfilled.I would not allow Shadow Jump to qualify for this feat line in my games unless I can be shown a dev statement or an errata or some kind of argument...
Stealth does qualify for sneak attack IMHO. click me :)
My point is what about the Shadowdancer is so strong (or whatever) that they were purposefully excluded from this line of feats?
What's the gamebreaking combo you can do with one? That is what I want to know. I want to know the reason they made the verbiage the way they did....
For example, a monk has to burn ki points to do an abundant step. Though he can jump a larger distance at once, the shadow jump can be used more easily to do hit and run tactics: do lots of small jumps to jump away and back in. Due to the limitations of a monk's ki pool you can do a lot more ambush style attacks with a shadow dancer than with a monk.
So this would be one thing that can be pretty gamebreaking IMO.
Just to add on this a small note: Though it could be gamebreaking, this is not the line of reasoning I pursue. I argue from RAW, which I explained above. What I stated above is why I also think RAW=RAI in this instance. Houserule it the way you want :-)
My point is what about the Shadowdancer is so strong (or whatever) that they were purposefully excluded from this line of feats?
What's the gamebreaking combo you can do with one? That is what I want to know. I want to know the reason they made the verbiage the way they did....
For example, a monk has to burn ki points to do an abundant step. Though he can jump a larger distance at once, the shadow jump can be used more easily to do hit and run tactics: do lots of small jumps to jump away and back in. Due to the limitations of a monk's ki pool you can do a lot more ambush style attacks with a shadow dancer than with a monk.
So this would be one thing that can be pretty gamebreaking IMO.
I had never thought of that. Spell are more limited also. Maybe that is why the shadowdancer was left out.
...The RAW says they can't do so, and I think the RAI is what the RAW is. Sometimes RAI does not match RAW. This time I think they line up perfectly well.
The "I" can be interpreted or intended depending on who you ask.
If someone can come up with some logic to refute my above points that is supported by the rules I will change my stance on RAW and probably RAI also.
It is fair for them to be so exclusive when they(the devs) don't mean to do so. Normally when they intend for an option to be open they would say something like "cast dimension door or use any ability that references it". They called out a specific ability. Now if the shadowdancer had come out in the APG, and the Dimensional Assualt feat was in the core book then you could argue that the only reason the shadowdancer ability was excluded was because it did not exist. In this case however the both the monk and shadowdancer were already in existance, and only one of them was called out. They specifically called the monk ability out rather than using verbage that would account for both the monk and the shadowdancer so I can't see this as an oversight where the RAW does not match RAI.I agree with you on this one. In all other similar situations (e.g. archaelogist luck qualifying for feats like lingering performance) a specific reference is made that you are allowed to qualify for feats, prestige classes etc.
RAW is usually pretty simple: Unless the exact terms are used to describe a feature, you do not have that feature, thus you do not qualify. "Shadow Jump" is not equal to "Abundant Step", so you do not qualify. Same with the dimension door spell requirements, you cannot cast it, so you do not qualify for it.
Also, note that Shadow Jump has limitations the other options do not have, so it is a reduced version, so I also think here RAI is not fulfilled.I would not allow Shadow Jump to qualify for this feat line in my games unless I can be shown a dev statement or an errata or some
I know there are arguments for and against that. And I read repeatedly that the devs stated that it would currently not qualify, but they are looking into that.
To me it does not matter, I rule it to work with stealth, so for me it's not an issue :-)
RAW is still interpreted by us lowly readers. One person's interpretation is no more correct than another's. The only ones that are more qualified to weigh in on what was intended to be written are the actual developers.
It sometimes bothers me when people on message boards (I'm not calling out anyone here, no offense intended) get all up in arms about what is definatively RAW and what is not as if they would know and are qualified to know better than anyone else. As if their logic is somehow superior to anyone else's. And if it doesn't meet with their interpretation of the rules it is considered a "house rule". I'm just going to say this once because I don't want it to turn into a rant:
RAW are still left the the interpretation of the reader. There can be different interpretations of what is meant by the words.
RAI is when the words are clearly opposed to what the intention of the rules are.
As far as the RAW goes I do not believe that the ability has to actually be called Dimension Door to qualify. In fact, this is not stated anywhere in the rules. The Shadow Step ability uses Dimension Door.
From a balance standpoint I count it as about equal. While the jumps could be seperated into many smaller jumps (with a total range far more limiting than Dimension Door I might add) it also carries the limitation of having both the starting point and ending point be within shadow.
I will add that anyone is free to house rule it any way they'd like. However the RAW, to me, clearly allows for the Shadowdancer to qualify for the Dimensional feats. And until a Dev officially weighs in on it there is nothing to say that my interpretation (and the interpretation of others here) is any less valid than anyone else's. But, if you'd like to continue to argue the point, who am I to stop you. ;)
One interpretation can be more correct. As an example if person A's interpretation is in line with the devs their's is more correct.
It is a houserule when it does not follow the rule as written when the words are clear. Like it or not the rules are written with a certain intent, and if you are not following that intent you are houseruling. That is not to say that houseruling is a bad thing, but one should look at the rules without bias to find out the intent, and then go from there. I don't know of one group without houserules.
The feat says cast dimension door or use the monk ability abundant step. That is very specific and it is in the rules. Those are the only options you have by RAW. That shadowdancer once again does not qualify either.
The RAW does not allow your interpretation. If so you would would have countered my other post which you have not done. You might feel you are correct, but there has not been any rules support on your part. Any opinion backed up with facts is going to be more valid for the purpose of finding the truth than one without backing.
As an example if I tell you the meaning of a word and you disagree, and cite Webster's dictionary as your source then since you have a valid source then your opinion is more likely to be correct. I can still argue with you, but I won't have much to go on. I do no think I am right because I am better than anyone. I have been proven wrong before. I think I am right because if we had to present my side versus your side as evidence I think my evidence is better than yours.
Lune you are wrong, when something is written clearly (as it is in this case) then there are correct and wrong readings. When you read 1+1 and one says it says 2 and you say it says 3 then you are wrong.
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RAW they can't take the feats, but I'd allow it without an instant of hesitation.
That said, I think the feats are a waste on Shadowdancer since you're supposed to be using them to psuedo-multi-pounce (hopping potentially between several foes), which doesn't mix well with a class that gets its usage measured out in feet traveled. Just IMHO. If you wanted to make a Dimensional Dervish character and not be a spellcaster (Since Magus and iirc Summoner can acquire the feat line really easily), I'd do Horizon Walker. You can get Dim. Door by level 8 (other stuff 6 / HW 2) and get it 3 + wis times per day. With just 14 wis, that's probably enough for most days, and if you're a wis-based character you could easily pump that higher. Compare to Monk (who btw is HORRIBLE for Dimensional Dervish due to the 2 ki cost per use and fact that he can't get it until level SEVENTEEN) with abundant step:
For starters, you grab Dervish at level 13, when Monk's basically just starting the feat chain. Even at level 17 when Monk can finally join the dance... Say you both have wis 18 by then. You get 7 uses per day. He gets (17/2 +4 = 12 ki / 2 ki per use) 6 uses per day. If he uses all his ki for absolutely nothing but abundant stepping. He might have slightly higher wis than you, but the point is...due to the 2 point cost, every +1 of wis you have is worth +2 of wis bonus he has, and the higher the wisdom scores go, the worse the comparison looks for the poor monk.
Like it or not the rules are written with a certain intent, and if you are not following that intent you are houseruling.
So you are judging the intent now? I am happy that you admitted that. Here and I thought we were talking about RAW rather than RAI.
Again, I do not believe that an ability has to be actually called Dimension Door to qualify for the feat. The ability could be called "BAMF" but actually use Dimension Door and still qualify. If there were a Prestige Class called the Nightcrawler that had an ability that said:
BAMF (Su): At 4th level, a Nightcrawler gains the ability to travel with short ranged teleports as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the target location must be within line of sight.
...it would qualify. Why? Because his abiliity uses the Dimension Door spell. Arguing otherwise is splitting hairs and arguing semantics IMO. The ability does not have to actually be called Dimension Door to qualify. It simply has to have an ability that uses the spell.
I don't plan on tearing your post apart sentence by sentence. I don't need to. I do not feel the need to convince you and I can tell you that it is a waste to try to convince me. The only thing that would convince me that my interpretation is not the correct interpretation of the RAW is if a Dev posted otherwise.
Outside of that - as I have stated multiple times - it doesn't really matter what either one of us thinks. It matters what sunbeam's DM's interpretation of the rules is.
StreamOfTheSky: I am glad you agree with me. I bet you didn't realize that you did. Let me explain why you must. You suggested that the OP use Horizon Walker which I also believe is a valid entry into the feat. However, by wraithstrike's interpretation of the feat it wouldn't work.
Here is what the feat's prerequisites are:
Abundant step class feature or ability to cast dimension door
And here is what the Horizon Walker can do:
Astral Plane: The horizon walker gains a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders. He gains dimension door as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + the character's Wisdom modifier (caster level equal to the character's level).
Bolding mine. Using a spell-like ability is not the same as casting a spell right? So it must not qualify?
Don't worry about it too much. I disagree that this bars the Horizon Walker from taking the feats. In fact, I think that he qualifies for the same reason that the Shadowdancer does.
Like it or not the rules are written with a certain intent, and if you are not following that intent you are houseruling.So you are judging the intent now? I am happy that you admitted that.
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I never said I get to decide intent. That was a general statement opposing your general statement of all interpretations are equally valid.
Again, I do not believe that an ability has to be actually called Dimension Door to qualify for the feat. The ability could be called "BAMF" but actually use Dimension Door and still qualify. If there were a Prestige Class called the Nightcrawler that had an ability that said:
BAMF (Su): At 4th level, a Nightcrawler gains the ability to travel with short ranged teleports as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the target location must be within line of sight.
You have no rules to back you in this case. Neither one fits the prereqs of the spell. The ability does not say access to dimension door, not the ability to duplicate dimension door. If it did the monk ability would not have to be called out. It has two very specific means. One is cast the spell or have the monk ability. I don't see why this is so hard for you.
Casting is a very specific thing in the game.
I don't plan on tearing your post apart sentence by sentence. I don't need to.
That is because you can't. You have nothing to go one except "I wish it worked this way..". The problem is that it does not work this way. If you can show rules text that supports your interpretation which would mean providing a quote that give the shadow dancer access to the monk ability or rules text the shadowdancer is casting a spell, and not using a supernatural ability, just like the monk is then you may as well not post.
It matters what sunbeam's DM's interpretation of the rules is.
Actually it does matters if anyone wants to know the rule is instead of a houserule.
StreamOfTheSky: I am glad you agree with me. I bet you didn't realize that you did. Let me explain why you must. You suggested that the OP use Horizon Walker which I also believe is a valid entry into the feat. However, by wraithstrike's interpretation of the feat it wouldn't work.
Actually they agreed with me, but they said they would houserule it.
Here is the quote:RAW they can't take the feats, but I'd allow it without an instant of hesitation.
Agreeing that a rule is meant to be interpreted a certain way and allowing it are two different things. That is why I said everyone plays with houserules in a prior post.
Here is what the feat's prerequisites are:
Abundant step class feature or ability to cast dimension door
The Horizon Walker's ability does not work like the Shadowdancer's first of all, and you will note that while you did find text that might qualify the Horizon Walker you can not find such text for the shadowdancer. At least the Horizon Walker is casting DD, even though I think it still means the spell, but at least the HW has an credible argument. The shadowdancer does not.
You only further disproved yourself by showing that some abilities actually allow someone to cast, while others do not.
I also notice you neglected to bold something
Astral Plane: The horizon walker gains a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls against outsiders. He gains dimension door as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + the character's Wisdom modifier (caster level equal to the character's level).
This once again shows that casting is important.
The shadowdancer does not say anything about casting. Of course it is a supernatural ability, and they can't be cast.
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My only complaint is that in 3.5 the Shadowdancer got sneak attack at the same rate as the rogue
No they didn't.
As for complaint, I really like the flavor of the Shadowdancer but I don't like how it turned out. I don't like how it was executed.Who is going to play it? Who is going to play 10 level of it?
Full casters? No. Full BAB Classes? No.
Monk? Their monk abilities don't scale with shadowdancer and most, if not all, of the monk stuff are far better.
Rogue? Less skill points, no sneak attack, levels of rogue and shadow dancer don't stack for purpose of getting advanced talents. So you have to be 10 level rogue if you want to keep on picking advanced talents. ...and you lose trap sense and its Equivalent is you play an archetype rogue.
Bards? They get no progression to: Spells known, spells per day, CL, Rounds of Bardic performance, new Bardic Performance, Bardic Knowledge, etc, etc. And the same goes for all the bard's equivalent archetypes.
Regardless of what class you pick you lose too much. Sure you can pick one level to get HIPS or two levels to get Evasion, darkvision and uncanny dodge. I can even see people picking 3 or 4 levels, but that's pretty much it.
At level 5 you lose BAB again and from that point on nothing fantastic happens.
Our last rogue picked 3 level SD so he could get HIPS and summon shadow. HIPS is nice, but summon shadow isn't that fantastic. The shadow is to weak is easily destroyed. And when that happens you have to wait 30 days.
I don't like the Pathfinder Prestige Classes and SH is one of the weakest. I still don't get what is it meant to do and who is multi classing to the SD.
I GM for a ranger 3/rogue 4/shadowdancer 1. We altered the shadowdancer by giving it sneak attack at levels 1, 4, 7, and 10.
I think it would be fun for shadowdancers to use those DD feats, so I would allow them to use it. It may not be RAW, or even RAI, but it seems to fit the flavor of the class and the feats.
Also, there are only 3 PCs in my game, and they lack a primary tank, so they need all the help they can get.
Don't go putting words in my mouth.
I didn't. I quoted your words.
You have no rules to back you in this case.
That is not true, I have the same rules you do. The ones in the book.
That is because you can't.
No, it is because I do not see the need to try to convince you of something I am obviously not going to convince you of. Apparently, you do not agree with this and wish to continue arguing your point. Go ahead, it doesn't bother me. But, as I have repeatedly said, you will not be convincing me otherwise without a Dev's ruling.
Actually they agreed with me, but they said they would houserule it.
I read what StreamOfTheSky wrote. I believe the "they" he was refering to was the Shadowdancer, not the Horizon Walker. But, I suppose I don't know that for sure. I guess we'll have to wait for StreamOfTheSky to post again to be sure what he meant.
Also, why do you believe that the Horizon Walker is more credible? He doesn't cast Dimension Door. Spell-like abilities are not cast either; they are activated mentally. They are spell-like. You know ... as if cast.
To me if you are allowing the Horizon Walker's ability to qualify for the feats then you should allow the Shadowdancer's ability by the same logic.
Either way, as a favor to the OP, I feel no need to continue to have his thread derailed. If you would like to further this line of discussion I have made a new thread for that.
@ Lune, no Shadow Jump does not use Dimension Door. It allows you to travel as if using dimension door.
@ DeathQuaker Friday: Was your player aware of Shadow Jump preventing any action after being used?
Edit:
@Lune: Yes Spell-like abilities are cast. That's is why you need to make concentration check. They have no verbal, somatic, or material component, but they are cast and have a casting time.
Zark: Lune. Not Luna.
Spell-like abilities are not cast. They are activated mentally.
The ability does not say access to dimension door, not the ability to duplicate dimension door. If it did the monk ability would not have to be called out. It has two very specific means. One is cast the spell or have the monk ability. I don't see why this is so hard for you.
Casting is a very specific thing in the game.
+1
Spell-like abilities are not cast. They are activated mentally. +1
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
Seems cast to me.
Zark: Lune. Not Luna.
Spell-like abilities are not cast. They are activated mentally.
Sorry, Fixed my post.
You use a spell-like ability, but they still have a casting time.So "Use or cast". I say cast, you say use.
The user activates it mentally.
"functions just like a spell", has "a casting time" do not make it cast. It is activated mentally. Just like it says.
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So does a still silent spell (only activated mentally)cast by someone with eschew materials stop being cast?
It even says they are cast in the part about ones that don't mimic a specific spell. Or are you gonna say that those are cast but regular ones aren't.
"In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell." actually mean what it says. Spa functions just like spells, unlike SU.
Spa + spells provoke AoO, SU does not.
A still + silent spell cast by a wizard with eschew materials would also be activated mentally, but it is still cast.
Sure they could have spelled out exactly how SPA function:
You cast them, they have a caster level, bla bla.
Instead they just said: In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell
As Talonhawke pointed out: "If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell [it] is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
It is cast.
Honestly, I don't know why I'm arguing this point as I believe Horizon Walkers qualify for taking the Dimensional feats. Really, I figured I was just explaining wraithstrike's stance that it wouldn't work.
Anyway, as I said before this is a Rules Question and should be taken to the appropriate thread there rather than continue to derail the OP's thread. Lets leave this one for constructive advice and rules stuff over there.
First thing is that just because something is activated mentally that does not mean it is not cast. The book says it is cast, so it is cast. Unless you have rules to support that a purely mental activation is not casting you are wrong.
A silent stilled spell has no verbal or somatic components, just like an SLA. Both are cast.
That is not true, I have the same rules you do. The ones in the book.
The ones in the book don't support your position. If they did you would post the ones that did. Look I understand you don't like to be wrong. Neither do I, but making things up, such as saying SLA's are not cast is not going to help your case. It actually strengthens my case since people will look at my and my rules quotes and think that at least I know what I am talking about since I am posting rules that support my statements.
But, as I have repeatedly said, you will not be convincing me otherwise without a Dev's ruling.
That is fine. As long as I can convince others by using your statements as bad examples I will be happy with whatever you do at your own home games.
PS: I will go to back to the rules thread now. I guess I should have went here first.
So let me sum it up for the OP.
Yes some actually pick one or two levels of SD, but the PrC is rather weak
and could to a rewrite.
@wraithstrike and others. Lune is right. Let it go. Get back to the OP's question.
That is fine. As long as I can convince others by using your statements as bad examples I will be happy with whatever you do at your own home games.
Here is a rules quote for you. Its at the bottom of this page.
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
Lets try to keep it constructive, ok?
I was not being a jerk. I was being serious. You have yet to post one valid example yet. You even tried to says SLA's which requires a caster level, draw attacks off opportunity, and is stated in the book as being cast in more than one place are not cast.
You are trying to allow a supernatural ability to pretend it is being cast. SU's don't even have caster levels, and are not SLA's.
IMHO they are bad examples. I made no personal attack against you. It was basically a comment on what I perceive to be a lack of evidence, and why I am starting to care less if I convince you specifically.
I'm looking for feedback and ideas from anyone who has played one.
I'd like to go into it from Rogue.
But as everyone knows the Rogue has problems, and the Shadowdancer isn't really considered to be that good. If anyone uses this Prestige Class at all, it seems to be a 1 (Hide in Plain Sight) or 2 level dip (Evasion, Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge).
Anyone got actual experience? Tactics? Equipment? Builds? Something they are actually good at?
Actually the Ninja/Shadowdancer is nasty. I would love to play one which played to it's strengths - i.e. the Str damage. Remember - any target which goes to 0 Str DIES if it has taken Str damage from a Shadow.
The Ninja abilities which complement this are;
Poison Bomb (Dragon Bile or other Str damage poison), Pressure Points (Str damage) and Flurry of Stars (poisoned of course....)
Add to this Ghost Step, Shadow Clone and Shadow Split (once at high level) and the Ninja becomes a damn scary assassin of considerable ability.
To give you and idea about how this might work;
1st round - Ninja and Shadow come out of the walls or floor and sneak attack - Shadow attacks with touch attack against flat-footed opponent whose AC is now in the toilet; Ninja flurries with stars - all poisoned with Str damage poison and pressure points effect. If enough poison is loaded onto the target, the fight is effectively over and the Ninja and shadow can withdraw and wait the few rounds for the poor target to collapse - after which the shadow hits the target once more, killing it.
Take the poison out of the equation and this is still a great tactic to soften up a target the other party members can wail on.
Awful way to go....
Not you, blackbloodtroll. Sorry. I should have specified. I was refering to wraithstrike. Worst posts I've seen from you have only been snarky. I think your a fairly constructive poster.
I thought so too. Another poster in an earlier thread mentioned a paladin shadowdancer which seemed fairly unique as well. Very Batmanesque. (Yes, it is a word.)
Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
Bolding mine italics not.
I think that is what precludes you its talking about a specific set of spells now wheather that includes all conjuration summoning spells or only the summon lines i don't know
Sorry for the late reply.
Deathquaker did the fighter levels really make a huge difference? It just seems to me the BAB wouldn't add up that much, though the weapon proficiencies and the few extra hp's might be appreciated. Most characters like this aren't going to have any use for heavy armor or tower shields, though a mithril breastplate might be nice.
It was useful, especially for the early levels (he took the fighter levels very early on, and the boost to BAB at that point was essential). He was always one of the party's main meleeers and having the bonus feats helped--as did the HP, as he was a halfling. I wouldn't say it's necessary of course, but it worked well for his build, and for the role he played in the party. Were I to build my own shadowdancer, I'd probably forgo the fighter levels myself, given my druthers.
I'd kinda like to take a lot of shadowdancer levels to play with the spell like abilities which have a lot of flavor. Were the rogue levels more useful than the shadowdancer levels once you got some of the key features?
From my perspective as his GM, they worked together synergistically. He made a build that as a whole, made a great, extremely sneaky, skillmonkey finesse melee expert. Both classes equally contributed to the effectiveness of the character. Ultimately, I think he chose to have more rogue levels than shadowdancer for increasing sneak attack dice, but he also relied heavily on shadowdancer abilities for the things he did in the party.
I would say you should choose what seems most exciting for you to do--and consider the needs of your party as well. If the flavor of the shadowdancer abilities really excites you, then take them. I think a clever player could do some awesome things with the shadow abilities the shadowdancer has.
If what you want is a sneaky sneak attack scout, which is what my player's character was, you might want to balance with rogue as best you can though.
I'll also note as an aside I had an NPC in the game who was a bard/shadowdancer. She was very focused on abilities to do with deceit, and was much more a support character in a fight, but it made her a very effective background spy, which is what I wanted her to be.
Also did he take quicken spell like ability? I was thinking about that but it appears like shadow jump would leave you unable to do anything that turn after you used it. I'm thinking it might be useless for a shadowdancer to use that feat on shadow jump.
No--even if that feat would have been available in my campaign (it wasn't), he couldn't apply it to Shadow Jump because it is a supernatural ability, not a spell-like ability.
He was disappointed when I pointed out to him that supernatural abilities require a standard action to use. It still ended up being very useful. He used it often to get him into odd places to ambush people, to get out of a fight fast if he was in trouble (the nice thing about a supernatural ability is it never requires a concentration check to activate, unlike an SLA), and to set up flanking if he found no other way to do it. And of course, escaping from dragon's mouths.
@ DeathQuaker Friday: Was your player aware of Shadow Jump preventing any action after being used?
I think honestly all of us often forgot that clause in dimension door, but the fact of the matter is, I can't remember any time he took an action after using Shadow Jump anyway. Since it's a standard action, he'd only be able to take a move action anyway, even if he were allowed to act. I think normally he'd take any move actions he wanted (like moving up physically or readying an item) before he used the ability.
@Talonhawke: It should work with any summon spell, but it's GM's call. Problem is summon shadow isn't a spell.
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But Stealth and Perception both work considerably differently in PF than 3.5. The quote for HiPS is almost identical, agreed- but the rules for Stealth and Perception are WAY different.The blog makes it clear, it wasn't just that they forgot. Allowing Stealth to give SA opens up a whole can of worms- pages and pages of comments, and a very long blog, changing quite a few things.
Mind you, if they make that change official, I have no problem with it. It clears up lots of other things, too.
Sorry for this late catch, but I can't really bother reading thru the playtests.
I don't understand what you mean by: "Allowing Stealth to give SA opens up a whole can of worms".
The rogue is one of the weakest classes in the game. SA + stealth really isn't that impressive. Stealth is still a part of a move action, so you can only attack once per round. Also there are things out there that are immune to sneak attack or 'immune' to stealth (tremorsense, etc) or times you can't use HIPS, or foes/monsters with true seeing, etc.
BTW, I know true seeing doesn't negate HIPS, but it negate most of your buffs such as heroism, Ring of Chameleon Power, Elixir of Hiding, Cloak of Elvenkind, invisibility, etc.
We had a half-ork called Shadow in our last party.
Shadow had skills focus stealth, high dex, ring of Ring of Chameleon Power, max out stealth and he had the Bard always cast heroism on him, etc.. Not even he got away with his stealth checks all the time.
And no, he wasn't a powerful character when it came to damage, but he was very useful. He was the party's living arcane eye.
As he spent a lot of game time alone scouting we had to find out a way to protect him (in case he got into to trouble). Our cleric always cast an Extend "Magic Circle against Evil" and an Enlarge "Shield Other" on him.
It would have been easier with Telepathic Bond, but we didn't have any wizard or sorcerer in the party. Shadow also had a shadow ;-)
He picked the first level of Shadow dancer at level 8 and picked the 2nd and 3rd level SD at level 12 and 13. He wanted 10 levels rogue before he picked the 3rd level SD so he could pick an advanced talents as a SD. I'm not sure he would have done it the same way today. There was a role playing aspect to getting a shadow, but the shadow is really weak and useless when you are up against undeads. He spent the remaining levels on rogue levels and never look back.
So I've seen it in gameplay. Stealth + SA is not powerful. It is actually far from being powerful.
As for Shadowdancer?. I don't get the SD. Never have, never will.
Combat Reflexes as a prereq? It's a feat tax. Rogues usually don't have reach.
I only saw our rogue use Combat Reflexes once or twice from level 1 - 16. At when he did he didn't get to use Sneak attack.
Shadow dancer. You get the best stuff at the first 2 levels well at the first actually. Sure you can go 4 levels SD, but no more.
Let's look at the SD from a rogue perspective.
SD level 1. As a rogue all you need is one level SD. HIPS. This is what you want. It is good, but not as good as you think. And it's all up to your GM on how he/she reads the rules and plays the game.
SD level 2? You already have Evasion and uncanny dodge. Darkvision? If you don't have it, use a wand or ask your wizard.
SD level 3? Rogue talent? You get this as a rogue and if you stay rogue you get advanced talents. Shadow illusion? The DC will suck. Not game breaking and you have UMD. Summon shadow? Good, but not fantastic. The shadow is weak. It has crappy AC, low on hit points, and bad saves bonuses and bad attack bonus. It is also hard to buff and protect. Wait 30 days if it gets destroyed, and usually you don't have that much downtime.
SD 4? Shadow call? Not great. The DC will suck so you might as well use scrolls or wands. Shadow jump. This is nice, but not über. Are you willing to give up 4 levels rogue and possibly 2d6 sneak and 2 advance rogue talents and all the other stuff to jump? Remember: After using Shadow jump, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
SD 5 - 9? Nothing new. You jump some more and get some more rogue talents. SD 8 you get shadow evocation with SD levels as your caster level. DC based on your char. Shadow evocation is a weak spell even when used by a REAL caster with real casting stats, and you are not a caster. You now have a CL of 8 and a low charisma score. Want to trade 8 levels rogue to be a really crappy caster?
SD 10? Improved evasion, shadow jump 320 ft., shadow master? Is it worth it? Simple answer: No.
9 levels Sorcerer with the Shadow bloodline is far more powerful and fun. There are actually feats that let you pick sorcerer bloodline powers without being a sorcerer.
If you are a rogue: I can see you picking one level SD. If you play a rogue archetype that don't get uncanny dodge, 2 levels is nice too. Especially if you don't have darkvision. If you are a ninja a 2nd levels SD might be nice. But Ninja and SD? Does a class with stuff like Darkvision, Vanishing Trick, Light Steps, Invisible Blade, Hidden Master really need to pick levels of SD? I rather pick a level wizard, sorcerer, Bard, Magus or witch. (and possibly one level barbarian or Cleric with travel + liberation domain if I'm small.)
Once you get 10 levels rogue (or 10 levels Ninja) I can see a point in picking 3 levels SD because now you get an advanced talent.
This does mean you have to play 12 levels without that cute shadow that some apparently want so much. At lower levels the shadow is useful, at higher levels, less useful and more Inclined to get destroyed. You could get you shadow at level 8, but then you don't get an advanced talent. Decisions, Decisions.
Me, If I played a rogue, I would never pick more than 1 level SD, but if you find it to your liking, go for it.
So can other classes go the SD route?
If you are a dex monk or dex bard. One, perhaps two levels SD. But staying monk or bard is probably a better choice.
If you are a dex ranger. One or two levels SD. If you are an urban ranger picking 3 levels SD could be an idea so you can get trap spotter or fast stealth.
If I played a ranger, Monk or Bard I would probably never pick any levels SD. At higher levels I would regret those levels SD.
So does SD fit other classes than rogue, Ninja, Ranger, Monk or bard? No not really. Sure you can play batman and pick one, two, three or four levels SD. But look at what you gain and what you lose. Regardless of class I can't see any need to pick more than 4 levels shadow dancer and shadow jump can easily simulated in other ways.
So the answer is, NO. Shadowdancer is pretty much a PrC for rogues. Most other classes should stay away. Batman sounds cool but usually isn't so cool. There are obviously exceptions as DeathQuaker has pointed out.
If I did pick one or more levels SD (regardless of staring class), I would ask myself. What do I what with my character? Why is he/she picking levels as a SD? If I just want HIPS I would just pick one level SD. If I want shadow jump, I would ask myself, do I really want to play a rogue? If answer is yes, then: do I really want/need shadow jump and if yes, could shadow jump be done in another way? UMD, Feats, Scrolls, wands, Wondrous items, rings or multiclass?
One level Bard, Magus, Cleric (travel domain), Wizard, Sorcerer or Witch and I can use a wand with dimension door, I get some spells, get a boost to my saves and get some other cool powers. I also get 0-levels spells that I can cast at will. Detect magic and detect poison at will isn't bad if you are a rogue or a scout. Using a lot of wand without having to deal with UMD is always nice.
Mechanically I think the Shadowdancer is inferior. Thematically it is kind of cool.
If you know what you want, know how to bring that to life using the game mechanics and can come up with a fun and viable character, I salute you.
Actually a Tetori Monk/Shadowdancer is interesting too - Str drain from Shadow after a grapple is established....
Tetori Monk monk is one of the weaker archetypes, IMHO.
Grapple and other Combat Maneuvers get less usable at higher levels. Also I never like designs that only focus on one thing. They get better and better at one particular thing, and thus keep being left behind in their capacity at versatility. Same thing with feat chains. Specializing in one thing at the expense of flexibility and versatility. It play right into the linear martial vs. caster disparity.
"the spell system is built for every expanding options, and thus they continue to grow in their ability to have a variety of solutions to problems."
Feat chains, a lot of archetypes and some PrC travel the opposite road, the road to specialization. I don't like it.
I never did like the monk. The APG and some of the archetypes made it playable. I like archetypes that add to flexibility and versatility or that fix some of the monk's problems. The Tetori Monk does neither.
Anyway, if you or anyone would like to play Tetori Monk + SD:
3 levels SD will hurt his CMB, CMD ki pool and cost him a bonus feat and all other monk stuff. He will also get the more powerful monk abilities three levels later than he would normally do. And as I have pointed out. The Shadow is fragile and not as powerful as you might think. It's also useless vs. undeads and anything immune to str damage.
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Seeing as this thread seems to be about the Shadow Dancer...
How does everyone rule Hide in Plain Sight?
I have a player who is taking this PrC, gotten this specific ability, and has a rogue character built on hiding and sniping.
Anyway, I know that Stealth does not stop Darkvision (i.e. you are invisibile). He interprets HiPS as being invisible. I'd give him the normal stealth stuff if there was light and shadows he was hiding in. But lets say he is underground, in cave, with no light at all. A situation where Darkvision is key. Would HiPS allow him to hide from foes with Darkvision?
Thanks,
Seeing as this thread seems to be about the Shadow Dancer...
How does everyone rule Hide in Plain Sight?
I have a player who is taking this PrC, gotten this specific ability, and has a rogue character built on hiding and sniping.
Anyway, I know that Stealth does not stop Darkvision (i.e. you are invisibile). He interprets HiPS as being invisible. I'd give him the normal stealth stuff if there was light and shadows he was hiding in. But lets say he is underground, in cave, with no light at all. A situation where Darkvision is key. Would HiPS allow him to hide from foes with Darkvision?
Thanks,
Yes. Darkvision does not help, you still have to spot him. It is not the same as being invisible though, which could be defeated with see invisibility and such.