So, I'm curious about all y'all's opinions on characters that come into a campaign at lower levels as middle-aged or older. I recently made a curiosity build using 15 points and ended up with a middle-age human Evocation-Specialist Wizard 4 with a 22 Int. Sure, his Str and Con were both 6, and his Dex was a 12, but hey, so long as this guy doesn't get hit or have to make a non-will saving throw, he can blow up most encounters of his CR.
So, what's your take on a player building a pre-aged char? Would you allow it? Should it be controlled? Or should they just be allowed to play around with it because the penalties after a while FAR outweigh the benefits?
If I were DMing, I would totally allow it. Not sure how it fits into PFS play though.
It makes sense to me that an adventurer might be a "late bloomer", not having a reason or motivation to lead an adventuring life until later years. :-)
Most GM's don't allow it, and neither do I. Whatever stats are in place I would assume are the results of having already aged if someone wanted to play an older character. Allowing someone to be older(and apply the age modifiers) just gets around the stats they are given to allocate.
Interesting question; at the largest modification point, you've got a 2:1 physical to mental ratio, so I don't see it being game breaking (you'll have to bump up Con a lot just to come out with average hp or, like, avoid damage) but I wouldn't expect it to fly in PFS play without a note from Paizo.
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I would allow it, and my husband has allowed it in past games. In an old epic-level game, the middle-aged wizard became old because they were in a demi-plane where time went really fast. They were actually worried about the wizard dying of old age if they couldn't find a way out fast enough.
I played an Old human oracle of Nature (Seer archetype) as a secondary character in a Kingmaker campaign for a while. I gave my GM my concept for the character along with some background and he was up for it. His Con was decent (14), even though his Str and Dex were low.
He was a lot of fun! A foul-mouthed drunk who was quite selfish and as cut-throat as nature herself at the beginning of play, he often Bluffed NPCs in town into thinking he had performed a divination for them (at an expensive rate...cuz THEY didn't know any better!). Over time, he came to see himself as in the debt of the other PCs and was helpful, eventually getting cut down by a [SPOILER OMITTED].
I am creating a witch and I'm going to make her 70 years old. The GM opinion is if I'm willing to take the STR, Dex, and CON hit, then I can have the +3 to all the mental stats.
I rolled up a middle-aged drunken ex-soldier fighter once. Of course age hurt him, but the GM totally allowed that.
It seems to me that most characters being created as middle-aged or older are all casters of some kind - characters that benefit more from the benefits of old age (namely bonuses to mental stats) than suffer from the penalties.
If a player approached me and asked to create a character at an advanced age, I would sit down with them and ask them why exactly they want to do so. If they have some interesting and valid RP reasons for such a character, I might be willing to give it a try, but if they immediately go into how the benefits help them be a stronger caster, and they can downplay the negative, I would be leery. The last thing most DM's need is yet another way for players to sway the balance of power away from established standards.
Then again, if someone asked to play an older character and they were a martial class, I'd say yes in a heartbeat.
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Never.
If you want a character with old stats, build your stats as you think is appropriate for an old character. If you don't like that, you probably weren't doing it for the concept.
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The CRB explicitly states that you can pick any age higher than the minimum and lower than "dead" for your character. The benefit/drawback ratio is never really going to go into the favor of the character using age unless they try to munchkin their way into an undead form (to use Cha for HP), in which case I would shut it down (probably on "you be evil now" grounds). Outside of that, I allow it. I have even done it myself, but for flavor rather than munchkining.
That said, a setting I've been working on for home games assumes a certain amount of XP is gained passively as a character ages (for NPC levels only, though there are rules to turn NPC->PC), and as such a level 1 character simple could not be more than 5-10 years older than the base age. If a character wanted to come in as old, they'd have to do so later in the campaign to keep things fair for the party.
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I don't really see this as a problem. An older character might need help getting past some hazards, which is a chance for the other players to poke a little fun and feel a little superior. They are losing HP, AC, and saves. They have less survivability, giving the healer and combat types a chance to shine by keeping them alive. As long as the group as a whole is having fun and not resentful or feeling ineffective, there should be no problem.
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If I were DMing, I would totally allow it. Not sure how it fits into PFS play though.
It makes sense to me that an adventurer might be a "late bloomer", not having a reason or motivation to lead an adventuring life until later years. :-)
In PFS you can start out any age you want but it doesn't affect your ability scores. So a 99 year old human has the same stats as an 18 year old.
I have no problem with a grown up fighter.
But if a very old person with -8 to a few physical scores wants to play a synthesist, I would kick him in the n*ts.
Interesting question; at the largest modification point, you've got a 2:1 physical to mental ratio, so I don't see it being game breaking (you'll have to bump up Con a lot just to come out with average hp or, like, avoid damage) but I wouldn't expect it to fly in PFS play without a note from Paizo.Those modifiers are cumulative, so it's actually a 3:1 physical loss to mental gain at the high end.
I'm just glad you won the argument for the sake of your logic or whatever!!
(fine, math counts)
So anytime it benefits the player in anyway it's min maxing but anytime it hurts the player it's roleplaying?
So anytime it benefits the player in anyway it's min maxing but anytime it hurts the player it's roleplaying?
Role playing and minmaxing are orthogonal concepts. One does not preclude the other. It is possible to do both at the same time.
Min-maxing is hard to define because practitioners of the art are quite good at using "role playing" as a rationale for the exploit or exploits.
Much like the Supreme Court defines "pornography" I'll just say that I know it when I see it.
You don't have to over think what I said. I was just pointing out it's silly to complain about age stat modifiers when they help a person and praise a character that is harmed by them. That's all I was pointing out, nothing more.
You don't have to over think what I said. I was just pointing out it's silly to complain about age stat modifiers when they help a person and praise a character that is harmed by them. That's all I was pointing out, nothing more.
Well, if it wasn't so frequently and so obviously the case that is exactly what is happening, people wouldn't react that way. As with many stereotypes, it exists because of the large grain of truth in it.
I would allow it as fluff. I would not apply the age modifiers, either positive or negative.
Good call. Next thing you know they are going to have reincarnate request in their will and, BAM! Huge bonuses to mental stats and a perfectly young and healthy body.
I played an elderly wizard in our last campaign and I made him by the book. He was so frail he was almost killed in every fight. If I had it to do over again, I'd just have his age be fluff. Or make an arrangement with the DM for an "anti-feat" that makes him slow moving and last in initiative in exchange for a few more known spells or something.
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It's worth pointing out that at higher levels it's pretty trivial to set aside the penalties (link) of old age when you are higher level.