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Kind of on subject, one issue I see a lot at conventions is that players assume that if they have not leveled there PC yet they are good at playing at that level even though they have earned enough xp to level. Where this causes problems is when they have leveled out of tier.
I have seen a lot of players play or try to play a scenario tier 1-5 when their character is actually level 6 but they think they are good since they have not actually leveled the PC yet.
I have no idea why I see so much of this.
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I have seen (and been the guy) players who leveled a PC in a hurry, and only games later realized that they didn't add something in (HP, or skill points, or even a feat.).
That is why I always bring Higher level version of my PCs to conventions and only adjust equipment as need, that way I don't find myself in that situation.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Kind of on subject, one issue I see a lot at conventions is that players assume that if they have not leveled there PC yet they are good at playing at that level even though they have earned enough xp to level.
I have no idea why I see so much of this.
wow... That's one I've not seen. Takes all kinds I guess. (and I do like playing the low level games...so I guess I've just missed it so far).
At a convention two weeks ago, I GMed 4 tables. There were three of these PCs. A guy who thought he was level 9 (had 30 xp on his Chronicle sheets), a fellow who thought his PC was 3rd level (10 xp on his Chronicle sheets) and another who thought he was 6th level (19 xp).
I admit that I double-checked one of my PCs after a con a week before that; only then did I notice that he'd made 6th level.
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It is so alien to me that one wouldn't know what level their character is, and how close they are to another level.
I have 9 characters now, and I know where they all are, how much they have to get to the next level, and I know what I'm going to play with each for every slot I get to play, and what I'm going to grant GM credit to.
It just seems very weird to me that someone wouldn't be tracking this for themselves.
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It is so alien to me that one wouldn't know what level their character is, and how close they are to another level.
I have 9 characters now, and I know where they all are, how much they have to get to the next level, and I know what I'm going to play with each for every slot I get to play, and what I'm going to grant GM credit to.
It just seems very weird to me that someone wouldn't be tracking this for themselves.
I have no idea where specifically all nine of my characters are. Honestly, when it comes to applying GM credit, I have to either remember to look up everything and decide before hand (not likely), or hope that I can get the GM to report it once I get around to looking things up.
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To make life easier for my GM's I bring my character sheet and chronicle sheets, but also transcribe all pp/gp etc transactions onto a simple excel spreadsheet and bring it as a printout so that everything is on one page and easy to verify.
They may feel welcome to check the details back to each chronicle sheet, but strangely, the sight of such well maintained and orderly information allows the GM's a bit of peace of mind and easy auditing.
I also highly recommend the erian7/Blue-canary sheet here on these boards as a minimum starting point, they are free and easy to use, and help avoid mistakes.
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It is so alien to me that one wouldn't know what level their character is, and how close they are to another level.
I have 9 characters now, and I know where they all are, how much they have to get to the next level, and I know what I'm going to play with each for every slot I get to play, and what I'm going to grant GM credit to.
It just seems very weird to me that someone wouldn't be tracking this for themselves.
Some people either have no organization skills or have no interest in organizing.
Believe me I don't get it either.
I keep careful track of all that to include keeping track of all my players. I have a database of close to 90 players and all the games they have played/GMed, what characters they have and the levels they are and how close they are getting to the next level.
Keeping track of all this data is significant help in scheduling our games to make sure everyone has something to play.
Also cuts down in auditing since I know if there is a problem most of the time before it is an issue.
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I know a GM who does similar record keeping, but maybe not as extensive.
Point is, someone needs to check the character when it is first registered for PFS, and again at the end of their 1st level (retraining can change anything but your PFS number). Should be the homegame GM's responsibility, or a automatic filter in the Paizo website. Such a filter should be relatively easy to program for a 1st level character, since the only modifiers should be Race based.
1st level characters "created" at a con should be checked as well, possibly by the GM or the other players.
It shouldn't take long to say
"Pass you papers to the right",
and see what kind of questions and comments come up, like
"Gee, how did you get 14/16/16/14/14/16 stats on a 20 point build? I could really use a build like that!"
or
"How did a 3rd level ranger get a +2 bow of rapid firing?"
Besides, it would serve as a sort of introduction between the "team" members.
After taking a brief, random survey of characters that post on the message boards, the following interesting "statistics" were found
Out of 23 players surveyed:
7 did not post any Ability Scores
14 had believable Ability Scores for their race and level
2 were definitely not possible without some sort of miracle (or multiple miracles)
I would say that more than one miracle in this small a population is highly improbable, so I estimate that about 5% of players are over-spending on Ability Scores at character creation, either on purpose, or just because the process is fairly complicated and they miscounted or misunderstood a rule.
The guy with the "real" miracle probably has a good story to tell.
It is also interesting that even in a fantasy world, 30% or more of internet users are reluctant to provide personal information, even something as innocuous as RPG stats.
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After taking a brief, random survey of characters that post on the message boards, the following interesting "statistics" were found
Out of 23 players surveyed:
7 did not post any Ability Scores
14 had believable Ability Scores for their race and level
2 were definitely not possible without some sort of miracle (or multiple miracles)
Who what where when why?
Can we have more info please? :p
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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After taking a brief, random survey of characters that post on the message boards, the following interesting "statistics" were found
Out of 23 players surveyed:
7 did not post any Ability Scores
14 had believable Ability Scores for their race and level
2 were definitely not possible without some sort of miracle (or multiple miracles)
Who what where when why?
Can we have more info please? :p
He's talking about the character profile pages. You can put whatever you want there, and it doesn't have to reflect the character's actual stats. It has no bearing on the game, unless you're doing PbP.
---
Getting back to the topic at hand, though, I'd ask that this not be made a requirement for all GMs. Frankly, I think I'd rather try to eat a whole bowl of d4s than audit every character at my table.
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He's talking about the character profile pages. You can put whatever you want there, and it doesn't have to reflect the character's actual stats. It has no bearing on the game, unless you're doing PbP.
I figured, but thought that it would be such a strange and meaningless exercise I couldn't see why one would bother.
Stats of ACTUAL characters in play is a bit more interesting.
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First, I'm not naming names, 'cause I don't have the stories that might justify something that looks outrageous. That's why there are chronicle sheets. So i'm not judging, just reporting. I'm even willing to grant an occasional miracle or wish. There may be curse rules that I haven't been able to find (I searched this site for such things), but if they exist, they don't seem to be PFS sanctioned.
I didn't take any names, just numbers, and the stats I used in my "Pass your papers to the right" example didn't match anyone in my sample, but I saw similar things. So anybody who says "Those are my stats!", Nope. I didn't use yours.
Statistics only really works for groups and not individuals anyway, and my sample size was just barely big enough to qualify as a vaild sample.
And while it is true you can write anything that you want on the proflie pages, same can be said for your character sheet, especially if nobody's checking it anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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First, I'm not naming names, 'cause I don't have the stories that might justify something that looks outrageous. That's why there are chronicle sheets. So i'm not judging, just reporting. I'm even willing to grant an occasional miracle or wish. There may be curse rules that I haven't been able to find (I searched this site for such things), but if they exist, they don't seem to be PFS sanctioned.
I didn't take any names, just numbers, and the stats I used in my "Pass your papers to the right" example didn't match anyone in my sample, but I saw similar things. So anybody who says "Those are my stats!", Nope. I didn't use yours.
Statistics only really works for groups and not individuals anyway, and my sample size was just barely big enough to qualify as a vaild sample.
And while it is true you can write anything that you want on the proflie pages, same can be said for your character sheet, especially if nobody's checking it anyway.
Right, but you are verifying that your character sheet is accurate. The profile page has no similar guarantee or even hint of respectability. Seriously.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Voluntary audits are great. Requiring VOs to audit characters, however, will require a massive increase in the number of VOs, and would probably require something below VL to be established. Even then, you are adding extra work to our already overworked VOs and, because many GMs would be required to fill this role, table GMs.
Let's say that every table GM, quarterly, needs to audit 5 players' characters. Let's also say that a character audit takes 1 hour and that each player has 4 characters. That's 20 hours per table GM. I'd rather that GM's time be spent GMming 5 extra scenarios per quarter.
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So as a Reminder, In general you won't find cheaters with Audits, you will however find mistakes that either favor or disfavor the PC.
Big difference.
I use audits to find mistakes and to help the player get a better knowledge of the rule system. I do not look for cheaters.
That said, I leave my in-depth auditing for our local games.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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So as a Reminder, In general you won't find cheaters with Audits, you will however find mistakes that either favor or disfavor the PC.
Big difference.
I use audits to find mistakes and to help the player get a better knowledge of the rule system. I do not look for cheaters.
That said, I leave my in-depth auditing for our local games.
This. The accusations of cheating are bandied about an awful lot in gaming, and it's inapplicable when an innocent mistake was made. Calling someone a cheater is an offensive remark, and it should be avoided unless someone has very intentionally and overtly broken the rules. Unity and peace is another reason to be careful about character audits unless this is kept in mind.
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So, my PFS experience is pretty small. But I'm a CPA in real life, so I know a bit about auditing.
Given all the limitations, trying to do an actual audit of characters is impractical. So what you want to do instead is a quick review. In accounting-speak, you're not looking for perfection, you're looking for 'materially correct'.
Figure out what the top 5 meaningful character mistakes are and looks for as many of those as you feel like and have time for. So maybe one game you check total hp, number of feats, and that all chronicle sheets are attached. Or maybe you know that for the particular scenario you're running Swim is going to be really important, so you check Swim skill, approximate encumbrance, and Armor Check penalties. Whatever it is, look for a couple of different kinds of things, and something that takes no more than 1 minute per person.
If something looks fishy or you have more time you can do a deeper dive -- after you do this a few times you'll be able to spot the sheets that need it right away. But remember the goal -- you're not trying to ensure that the characters are perfect, just that none of them are so broken that they will disrupt the scenario. So right now all you are really looking for is that a few key stats are correct, and you know which characters you might have to keep an eye on during play.
All of y'all experienced GMs most likely have something like that that you're already doing, but you'd probably find some value in comparing notes and making checklists to really hone it down to the most common and most relevant errors.
Of course, if you do have time to fully audit a character or two, that's fabulous, and I'm sure most players could learn a lot from the process. But IMO you'd want to approach it more as teaching process (either audit process or character creation process) rather than uncovering errors or fraud, because the justification for that amount of work isn't for uncovering existing errors, it's for preventing future errors.
Anyway, just two coppers from someone who thinks "The Auditors of Absalom" would be even *more* fun than doing taxes -- as hard as such a thing is to imagine.
Edit: Oh, and about fraud. Most fraudsters tend to be fairly easy to catch in the long run, both because they don't understand how all the systems hang together, and because once they start cheating they usually escalate until they get caught. You'll probably find that you catch most cheaters just by keeping your eyes open and checking *something* every game. As others have mentioned anecdotally, simple errors generally far outweigh actual fraud.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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So, my PFS experience is pretty small. But I'm a CPA in real life, so I know a bit about auditing.
Given all the limitations, trying to do an actual audit of characters is impractical. So what you want to do instead is a quick review. In accounting-speak, you're not looking for perfection, you're looking for 'materially correct'.
Agreed (I'm not an accountant, but I am married to one).
I'm sure some of my characters would fail a full audit (especially the spellcasters; I don't have a GM's initials alongside all the spells I've copied into my spellbook, for one thing). And my gunslinger was (briefly) illegal; he bought his second firearm - a musket - before he had the necessary fame. But all the characters are 'materially correct', and do (now) show up error-free in HeroLab (except the Kitsune: HeroLab still flags a Kitsune as not being legal for a PFS character).
I also have a folder for each character with details of the additional resources needed for that character, including pages printed out from my PDFs (and photocopies from campaign settings, etc., that I don't have in electronic form). At a convention I will have the actual hardcopy-only resources up in my hotel room, but I don't generally bring physical books to the table, and I don't take them to my local game store when I play there. But it was only while I was putting that material together that I discovered I did not, in fact, have one of the supplements I needed (Inner Sea Primer, IIRC) - an omission which I have since remedied.
It would be impractical to do a full audit of a character before a session at a convention: this would also include validating everything that had happened since the last audit - checking all purchases shown on chronicle sheets were actually legal purchases at the time they were made, that the figures carried over from an earlier chronicle sheet were entered correctly, that the player had all the required additional resources, etc.
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This. The accusations of cheating are bandied about an awful lot in gaming, and it's inapplicable when an innocent mistake was made. Calling someone a cheater is an offensive remark, and it should be avoided unless someone has very intentionally and overtly broken the rules. Unity and peace is another reason to be careful about character audits unless this is kept in mind.So as a Reminder, In general you won't find cheaters with Audits, you will however find mistakes that either favor or disfavor the PC.
Big difference.
I use audits to find mistakes and to help the player get a better knowledge of the rule system. I do not look for cheaters.
That said, I leave my in-depth auditing for our local games.
How dare you not have my perfect math skills, rules knowledge, and ability to judge all of the gray areas! Graaarrrrr! :)
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Honestly my GMs rarely sign my purchases. I tell them I want to buy x before or after the adventure, but when it comes down to filling out the sheet they rarely get iniatialed. I honestly forget about it too. I did not even know ti was required until I saw people talk about it on the boards. I am no better I forget to initial those things too. I even write my wand/item usages on the items spent(they do not get signed either). Yet unless I demand it from my player, I am only that I have ever seen do it.
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Before the scenario starts, I let players know that I'll need their most recent chronicle at the end of the scenario. This chronicle needs to be fully filled out in order to receive their new chronicle.
I am really intrigued with this idea and wonder how players would react if I started doing it myself. It does not single out a player so there shouldn't be any "persecution complex." I wonder what type of action is appropriate for not having the character's chronicles filled out? What if they don't have them at all? Do I deny them the ability to play? Perhaps I require the use of the most level-appropriate pregen and they are free to apply the chronicle to the character. If they do not have the chronicles, do I thoroughly audit the character sheet after the session? Or do I just write a note on the newest chronicle detailing the lack of up-to-date records and recommending an audit by the next GM? I think Kyle's idea has a lot of merit and can be very effective, but I'm still a little unsure about how to implement it.
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To avoid a lot of negative fallout (I can see that ending really badly) you'd need to ensure that the whole EVENT was rolling that way and it was advertised as a fact on sign up to the event.
Otherwise you get people who are a bit tardy with their paperwork all of a sudden needing to get their ducks in a row (and have me asking you pointedly why you are now wasting my precious gaming time with someone elses admin problem) OR you end up with players themselves angry because there is a retroactive change foisted upon them without any warning.
As a player, I wouldn't be interested in hearing about it terribly much, as I don't enjoy time wasted on other people's ability to keep a book.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Shifty, I dispute your characterization.
At a convention a couple weeks ago, I asked a couple people per session if I could look over their Chronicles.
The real reason was to see if there was any adventure that they had played, that I could reference in the session. (We're playing 'Blakros Matrimony' -- how many people have played 'Storming the Diamond Gate'? Has anyone already played 'Day of the Demon'?)
I also look to see if there are any boons that the player has been sitting on for a while. (You played 'Year of the Shadow Lodge' two years ago, and you still haven't used your two free Combat re-rolls. I should keep that in mind, in case you need them.) Truthfully, I also take a look at current unspent Prestige, in case things get dangerous.
At the first table, I found somebody playing a 9th level character with 30 XP. The fellow next to him didn't have any Chronicle sheets at all; he claimed that he had never been told that he needed to keep them. I judged 4 tables; and three of them were like that. (The one exception was a table with a bunch of veteran GM / players; they all had their ducks in a row.)
That's not "every last copper". And it's not off-the-cuff. In fact, those kinds of errors have convinced me that I need to be spending a little more time at this. Not to catch cheaters, but to make sure that 11th level PCs aren't running around with 9th-level abilities.
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It's not about worrying about every last copper piece. Its about personal responsibility. Everyone seems to agree that the player is essentially in charge of their own character's legality. In any walk of life, when there is no accountability, those involved, do not stick to the rules. No necessarily out of some attempt to cheat (although there are those), but simply due to lack of "fear." That's probably not the best word to use, but it works. If we know that police never patrol a certain road, the vast majority of us will speed. Why? Because there is no enforcement. Perhaps a handful will do it just because they are "pure of heart," but that number is very few and far between.
Now, we have said time and time again that auditing a character sheet at the gaming table is too time consuming and often taken as accusatory. Well, it would seem the "twist" of asking for the most recent chronicle sheet would seem to solve that issue. If you announce the request at the start of the session and the player has four hours to review it before handing it to the GM at the conclusion, what's the problem? Every player does not have to pay 100% attention to 100% of the game. I know there are times when I, as a player, can review something in a Paizo book, review my character sheet and refresh some of the things my character can do, perhaps have some off-the-cuff conversations with my fellow players, hell even leave the table for a restroom run, a refreshment, or a smoke-break, all without missing any of the action.
This concept takes almost no time at the table except when a player notifies you at the start s/he does not have/will not have a legal chronicle for your "review" at the end of the session. In which case, they get to play a pregen.
It is the PLAYER'S responsibility, not the GMs, to ensure their records are up to date. Maybe, and I stress maybe, I would have some compassion for a player who had played numerous consecutive sessions at a convention and had not had time to thoroughly complete the chronicles. However, at a gameday where the last session played was a week ago, two weeks, a month, or more, no chance. Let's not deflect this and try to say its the GMs fault the player's paperwork is lacking. Take some responsibility for yourselves people.
And in case you are wondering, under this concept, not a single one of my nearly ten characters would currently be legal to play. I "like" to blame my time investment into organizing, GMing, terrain building, mini painting, etc. as a reason I "don't have time" to maintain proper PFS records. However, if/when a GM asks to audit my character sheet and/or chronicles, there is no way I will blame the GM if s/he decides I cannot play said character. I am acting to correct this issue before my next gaming session.
BTW, according to the Guide to PFSOP, a chronicle sheet is intended to be completed at the end of the session, including (but not limited to) all purchases, conditions cleared, PP spent, etc., then reviewed for accuracy by the GM, and only then do you complete the "For GM Only" section at the bottom of the chronicle...all while still at the table. In over 300 sessions of PFS I have been involved in, only twice has that happened. Once I was the GM and it was for a group of brand-new first level characters back in season one. The other was as a player. Our table used an unusually large amount of expendables and bought a lot of mundane items during the session and the GM wanted to be sure everything was accounted for. No one pitched a b*tch. Of course, due to time constraints, most would agree that this may not be a reasonable expectation, especially at conventions with little to no break time between sessions. Which makes it even more essential that players maintain their records.
I feel like the more this is discussed, the more likely it is that I will implement it and see how it works out. Is it as good as a thorough character audit? Probably not, but anything has to be better than what is going on now, which is essentially nothing. I wonder if Kyle could jump in and give a recount of how it has worked (or not worked) for him.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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nosig, I really respect that first paragraph.
Now, I've been spending the last week reviewing all my characters, so that when I show up at a table, I'll know they're in order. (I'm also making hard copies from PDF pages for relevant rules.)
(Big revelation: I have several GM-credit Chronicles that I'd run back when the rules for assigning GM credit were less defined, and I still hadn't assigned them. A 1st-level zen archer suddenly became level 4.)
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Yeah, I did a review of one of my PCs a while back and found he has bought a cloak of resistance (+1) twice...
I've done similar. My wife* and I set aside special nights to go through our characters together, especially after a major convention, to try to make sure everything is right. While the PFS method of Chronicles and 3XP a level sure helps with the book-keeping (I couldn't imagine recording actual, regular xp in a living campaign!), it still requires some effort. It's very easy to mess up stuff, double-buy etc.
*A C.P.A. btw, who doesn't mind it so much.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hm, it occurs to me that the new 2.0 version of my home-made custom character sheet is drastically more audit-friendly than anything else I've ever used, so maybe I'll take an evening soon and transfer all my PCs over to them (currently only my newest PC uses it, since I only recently finished it).
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This appears to be a long-running thread, and I can't offer many solutions... but I did want to speak up as a new player (I have less than ten games in, easily, despite letting my imagination run wild and creating about a half-dozen PFS legal characters for if I ever need them).
So far, most of you have been posting on an "assume good faith" basis and I really appreciate that! It's nice to see that most of the GMs and PFS staff I may be interacting with aren't huddling up in preparation for a witch hunt, and they expect that most errors will be minor and unintentional. Most of you have been pursuing constructive solutions to the problem instead, and this is a good thing.
It's very reassuring. I'm doing my best to ensure my batch of new PFS characters are all 100% legal/accurate; I even try to track their purchases down to the last copper piece in the hopes this sort of thing won't even come up. Yet it's very comforting to know that if I've slipped up somewhere, the response is most likely going to be "What, you were off by +1 on a skill check, or off by 7 GP? I'm going to on-the-spot adjust that to keep the table going, and afterward I'd like to have someone sit down with you and figure out the exact correct value. Don't worry, we're not setting you on fire and/or banning you from PFS play for a small error like that... just try to be more precise in the future, okay?"
I'd rather play in a game environment that promotes understanding and good faith than one driven by fear, and I'm getting a very positive impression from this thread. Thank you!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Failing that, maybe describing what works so well?
Well, let's see...
Front Page:• Instead of multiple attack workspaces, there are two, plus a line for calculating your basic (BAB+AbilityMod) melee and ranged bonuses. I find that my "secondary" attack methods (ray attacks, backup weapons, etc) almost never use more than my BAB+AbilityMod, so I just have those numbers recorded instead of having to either put each situational attack method in its own box or have to add a couple of numbers when they come up.
• Two workspaces for rationed abilities (ki pool, X/day domain or school powers, rage or performance rounds, etc). There's room for the name, uses/rounds per day, amount used so far, and an area for listing/describing the abilities.
• A concentration line, including totals both with and without Combat Casting (remember that CC doesn't apply to all concentration checks).
• Two spaces for tracking wand charges, with enough room for the name and any minor note (like perhaps the caster level or an abnormal starting number of charges).
Back Page:
• Large space for recording feats/abilities
• Area for listing potions/oils
• Area for listing wands
• Area for listing scrolls
• Area for listing other carried/non-slotted gear
• Carrying capacity chart
• Languages known
Magic Item Page:
Lists all magic item slots with a comfortably-large box to write in, plus a space at the bottom for the total weight.
Spellcasting Summary Page:
• Chart for listing DCs, spells per day, etc at each spell level
• Concentration line, just like the front page
• Area for metamagic, spell ranges, and other notes
• Lines for shorthand descriptions of spells known/prepared (For full descriptions of spells known or spellbooks, I use Perram's Spell Card Generator, in addition to the necessary legal reference/CRB.)
And finally, I ditched those ink-hogging, hard-to-read black headers that the default sheet uses in favor of simple black text on white background.