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Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.It says right here you can't take 20 when using disguise or hiding small objects... Why? Because there is a penalty for failure. Getting caught is a pretty big penalty. Sure the penalty doesn't happen till much later when you are trying to get past guards, but it is still a penalty.
That's why you have someone to check you or a mirror when you take 20.
There is no penalty for failure. Even if you roll a "1" you don't fail a disguise check. It's an opposed check. You don't fail, the person rolling or taking 20 on Perception succeeds.
With your line of reasoning one could not take 20 on Perception checks:
The penalty for failing is you don't find a thing.
Or take 20 for knowledge in a library: the penalty for failing is you don't know a thing.
A penalty is for something like Climbing at 10 ft.+ (fail and take damage), or UMD fail and there is no retry or there is a mishap.
The penalty for failing Disguise is a wasted use of a Disguise kit. That's why you buy 2 (10 uses each).
It doesn't specify that the penalty has to happen immediately. In fact since the skill use is preparatory then obviously the penalty would come later. As for Ravingdork's question... I can't know what is in someone else's mind. I can only assume they thought as Malfus does.
No worse than the penalty for not finding a trap and you can take 20 on that.Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.It says right here you can't take 20 when using disguise or hiding small objects... Why? Because there is a penalty for failure. Getting caught is a pretty big penalty. Sure the penalty doesn't happen till much later when you are trying to get past guards, but it is still a penalty.
Actually, as I stated earlier, there is no penalty for failing the perception check for finding a trap, only acting on faulty information. Whereas in the case of disguise, being uncovered is the direct result of failure in your check (not meeting their perception check/DC). However I still disagree on the premise of penalties for future DC's applying on the ability to take a 20.
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It says right here you can't take 20 when using disguise or hiding small objects... Why? Because there is a penalty for failure. Getting caught is a pretty big penalty. Sure the penalty doesn't happen till much later when you are trying to get past guards, but it is still a penalty.
Then I guess you should inform Sean K Reynolds of his error:
I'm quite comfortable with allowing someone to spend hours on a disguise and take 20 on the Disguise check.
Good thing we have you here to correct the develops on their own rules, Aranna! ;)
You can't "fail" at a disguise check. It's not like climbing where your check result literally determines whether or not you climb at all (or fall). You're either disguised, or you are not. It doesn't matter what result you get on your check. Once you choose to don a disguise, you are disguised. There is no failure. It is automatic even if your result is a -1. You can have the misfortune of encountering someone perceptive enough to see through your disguise, but that's not the same thing as failing at the task itself.
Therefore there is no penalty for "failing" when making a disguise.
I don't let people take 20 on perception checks in most cases either. I am nothing if not consistent.
A penalty is a penalty...
I don't let people take 20 on perception checks in most cases either. I am nothing if not consistent.
A penalty is a penalty...
Unless it's not.
No where does it say your head explodes if you fail to perceive something. Not perceiving something doesn't carry any inherit penalty for failure whatsoever.
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I don't let people take 20 on perception checks in most cases either. I am nothing if not consistent.
A penalty is a penalty...
Feel free to run your games that way, but don't mistake your own practices for the actual rules. For instance, the T20 rules actually list Perception as an example of a commonly T20'd skill.
You can't "fail" at a disguise check. It's not like climbing where your check result literally determines whether or not you climb at all (or fall). You're either disguised, or you are not. It doesn't matter what result you get on your check. Once you choose to don a disguise, you are disguised. There is no failure. It is automatic even if your result is a -1. You can have the misfortune of encountering someone perceptive enough to see through your disguise, but that's not the same thing as failing at the task itself.
Therefore there is no penalty for "failing" when making a disguise.
I implore you to reconsider your position.
From the pfsrd:"Try Again
Yes. You may try to redo a failed disguise, but once others know that a disguise was attempted, they’ll be more suspicious."
Damage Mr. Ravingdork sir... that is part of the threat exclusion is it not? We are talking about the consequences of failure. There ARE consequences for failing, therefore you can't take 20.
A failed disguise is not the same as a failed disguise check, Malfus. Just cause someone saw through your disguise (causing it to "fail" as you quote) doesn't mean you failed to don it in the first place.
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I don't let people take 20 on perception checks in most cases either. I am nothing if not consistent.
A penalty is a penalty...
It's your table after all.
But Perception is literally called out specifically as a Skill one can Take 20 with. The Take 10 and Take 20 rules exist so characters can succeed at things they are good at. This penalizes players and removes choice:
Eg: "Do we spend an hour looking for traps and risk a random encounter? Or do we roll it and move on?"
Or: "Do we spend a whole day making the perfect disguise to infiltrate the cult of the frog god risking them summoning unspeakable monstrosities or do we roll it and hope we can reach the altar in time to stop the ritual?"
The core of the game is choice and resource management. The Take 20 rules make time a resource the PCs must manage.
A failed disguise is not the same as a failed disguise check, Malfus. Just cause someone saw through your disguise (causing it to "fail" as you quote) doesn't mean you failed to don it in the first place.
The disguise check is not a check to see if you donned your pants RD. It is a check to see if you have a passable disguise. Success or failure of the check is based on the perception of those opposed.
By your logic I cannot fail a perception check, as I can "successfully" look around but I can still "fail" to see the trap in front of me. Semantics are not amusing and checks are the things that fight DCs.
EDIT: to TriOmegaZero: ditto
The damage is not a consequence of failing the Perception check.Damage Mr. Ravingdork sir... that is part of the threat exclusion is it not? We are talking about the consequences of failure. There ARE consequences for failing, therefore you can't take 20.
If it were, everyone's heads would have exploded by the time they walked from their morning bed to their first cup of coffee.
How many perception checks do you think you fail each morning in that groggy "still waking up" state? Now, how much damage does each such failure do to you?
And people say I'm ridiculous. :P
Jiggy you are not SKR. Was he making an exception in his post or stating his interpretation of a rule? We don't know unless he tells us. If he said that in a FAQ I would take it as rule... SKR himself admits to making mistaken statements in other forum posts. So if he wants to weigh in with a FAQ ruling then I will concede. But until then I think SKR can speak for himself.
A failed disguise is not the same as a failed disguise check, Malfus. Just cause someone saw through your disguise (causing it to "fail" as you quote) doesn't mean you failed to don it in the first place.The disguise check is not a check to see if you donned your pants RD. It is a check to see if you have a passable disguise. Success or failure of the check is based on the perception of those opposed.
By your logic I cannot fail a perception check, as I can "successfully" look around but I can still "fail" to see the trap in front of me. Semantics are not amusing and checks are the things that fight DCs.
EDIT: to TriOmegaZero: ditto
Looks like you understand my stance at least.
Failing to perceive something doesn't mean you failed the Perception check. After all, you DID make the Perception check.
Failing a climb check on the other hand can outright prevent you from climbing (or even cause you to fall).
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Jiggy you are not SKR. Was he making an exception in his post or stating his interpretation of a rule? We don't know unless he tells us. If he said that in a FAQ I would take it as rule... SKR himself admits to making mistaken statements in other forum posts. So if he wants to weigh in with a FAQ ruling then I will concede. But until then I think SKR can speak for himself.
I would have linked it the first time, except I thought that linking a post from the very thread I'm in would be unnecessary. I guess I was mistaken.
So here, first page of this very thread.
Oh, and here's the first time I quoted him, also in this very thread.
Again, run your own games however you want. But as far as how it works by default, it's pretty much settled. (Same with the still-ignored-by-some-people detail about searching for traps being explicitly listed in the CRB as something you can T20 on.)
The damage is not a consequence of failing the Perception check.Damage Mr. Ravingdork sir... that is part of the threat exclusion is it not? We are talking about the consequences of failure. There ARE consequences for failing, therefore you can't take 20.
If it were, everyone's heads would have exploded by the time they walked from their morning bed to their first cup of coffee.
How many perception checks do you think you fail each morning in that groggy "still waking up" state? Now, how much damage does each such failure do to you?
And people say I'm ridiculous. :P
What are you talking about???
Are you deliberately misreading my comment?I said (using simpler sentence structure to eliminate confusion)
"Damage would exclude you from taking 20.
But we are talking about something else.
We are talking about consequences of failure.
Since there are consequences to failure then you can't take 20.
And I am not talking about damage.
I am talking about getting caught."
I personally don't allow take 20 on disguises. This assumes that everything thing is perfect and under your control. I believe the dice represent things that are out of your control. Maybe something changed about the appearance of someone you are trying to mimic. Maybe the adhesive you used was not up to par and your fake eyebrow begins to come off as you are talking to someone and you are not aware. There are still things left to chance that the characters cannot control, no matter how hard they try.
I don't think the dice should determine whether an NPC has a new blemish. The blemish is better handled as a circumstance modifier.
An eyebrow coming off is more like a low roll on the disguise check which could be fluffed out as not enough glue being applied.
Sorry if I misread your earlier posts, Aranna.
Getting caught is not a penalty of failing a Perception check. How many times do you "get caught" for failing perception checks on the way from your morning bed to your first cup of coffee? :P
Ergo, it is not a consequence of failing a Perception check.
It says right here you can't take 20 when using disguise or hiding small objects... Why? Because there is a penalty for failure. Getting caught is a pretty big penalty. Sure the penalty doesn't happen till much later when you are trying to get past guards, but it is still a penalty.Then I guess you should inform Sean K Reynolds of his error:
I'm quite comfortable with allowing someone to spend hours on a disguise and take 20 on the Disguise check.Good thing we have you here to correct the develops on their own rules, Aranna! ;)
"I'm quite comfortable with allowing.." is not a rule. It just says "this is how I would do it." I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just making a distinction between the two.
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I think if every skill had either
Take 20: yes
Take 20: no
things would have been better. It does not take up that much more space in the book.
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"I'm quite comfortable with allowing.." is not a rule. It just says "this is how I would do it." I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just making a distinction between the two.It says right here you can't take 20 when using disguise or hiding small objects... Why? Because there is a penalty for failure. Getting caught is a pretty big penalty. Sure the penalty doesn't happen till much later when you are trying to get past guards, but it is still a penalty.Then I guess you should inform Sean K Reynolds of his error:
I'm quite comfortable with allowing someone to spend hours on a disguise and take 20 on the Disguise check.Good thing we have you here to correct the develops on their own rules, Aranna! ;)
And that is a correct distinction to make.
Even so, what a developer is "comfortable with allowing" tells us a lot more about the intent of the rule than does the speculations of some random forumite who claims that the opposite position is clearly stated in the rules.
"Yeah, the guy who worked on the rulebook interprets his own rule that way, but that's not how it really works."
Seriously?
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From the disguise skill:
You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people make Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can't be sure how good the result is.
You only get one check. Taking 20 assumes you make enough attempts that you get a 20. The disguise skill does not allow that.
Also note that the check should be made secretly so you are never sure of the results. If you are never sure of the results then you effectively can never take a 20.
For those who will say that you will have a friend do a perception check and then redo it to get 20 please note that you still get only one check regardless of how many perception checks are made.
Looks like you understand my stance at least.
Failing to perceive something doesn't mean you failed the Perception check. After all, you DID make the Perception check.
Failing a climb check on the other hand can outright prevent you from climbing (or even cause you to fall).
I believe your stated stance was thus: "A failed disguise is not the same as a failed disguise check, Malfus. Just cause someone saw through your disguise (causing it to 'fail' as you quote) doesn't mean you failed to don it in the first place." Once again, I implore you to take a different one.
EDIT: improved emphasis
From the disguise skill:
You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people make Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can't be sure how good the result is.You only get one check. Taking 20 assumes you make enough attempts that you get a 20. The disguise skill does not allow that.
Also note that the check should be made secretly so you are never sure of the results. If you are never sure of the results then you effectively can never take a 20.
For those who will say that you will have a friend do a perception check and then redo it to get 20 please note that you still get only one check regardless of how many perception checks are made.
I believe one use is the 1d3 minutes of time spent on the disguise. You get one check for all your work, and only one. You could spend another 1d3 minutes to get another, single check. In fact, there are rules for retrying.
"I'm quite comfortable with allowing.." is not a rule. It just says "this is how I would do it." I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just making a distinction between the two.It says right here you can't take 20 when using disguise or hiding small objects... Why? Because there is a penalty for failure. Getting caught is a pretty big penalty. Sure the penalty doesn't happen till much later when you are trying to get past guards, but it is still a penalty.Then I guess you should inform Sean K Reynolds of his error:
I'm quite comfortable with allowing someone to spend hours on a disguise and take 20 on the Disguise check.Good thing we have you here to correct the develops on their own rules, Aranna! ;)And that is a correct distinction to make.
Even so, what a developer is "comfortable with allowing" tells us a lot more about the intent of the rule than does the speculations of some random forumite who claims that the opposite position is clearly stated in the rules.
"Yeah, the guy who worked on the rulebook interprets his own rule that way, but that's not how it really works."
Seriously?
That is clearly not what I said(with reference to your quoted section), and it should be noted that Sean and Jason have rules disagreements, but Jason gets final say, so just because Sean says he would allow ______ that does not make it the rule.
An example is the fact that Sean does not like the way Trip works.
edit:So yeah I was serious.
From the disguise skill:
You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people make Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can't be sure how good the result is.You only get one check. Taking 20 assumes you make enough attempts that you get a 20. The disguise skill does not allow that.
Also note that the check should be made secretly so you are never sure of the results. If you are never sure of the results then you effectively can never take a 20.
For those who will say that you will have a friend do a perception check and then redo it to get 20 please note that you still get only one check regardless of how many perception checks are made.
Thanks. I will list this for future reference.
Looks like you understand my stance at least.
Failing to perceive something doesn't mean you failed the Perception check. After all, you DID make the Perception check.
Failing a climb check on the other hand can outright prevent you from climbing (or even cause you to fall).
I believe your stated stance was thus: "A failed disguise is not the same as a failed disguise check, Malfus. Just cause someone saw through your disguise (causing it to 'fail' as you quote) doesn't mean you failed to don it in the first place." Once again, I implore you to take a different one.
EDIT: improved emphasis
Upon further review of your post, I am making a revised statement:
By your definition you still successfully made a climb check, you just failed to make any progress (or perhaps failed to stop yourself from plummeting to the ground)
SKR himself (on his own 3e website) said you can't take 20 on disguise checks... making him wrong either on his website or now in this forum post.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html
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From the disguise skill:
You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people make Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can't be sure how good the result is.You only get one check. Taking 20 assumes you make enough attempts that you get a 20. The disguise skill does not allow that.
I can see where you're coming from (thank you for actually making a reasoned case from the rules). However, I think you misinterpreted the bolded part.
See, without that line, someone might think that every time someone made a perception check, they needed to re-roll their disguise (after all, it's an opposed check). The fact that the sentence you referenced (careful about bolding partial sentences) goes on to say "even if several people make Perception checks against it" seems to imply that the chance of multiple opposed checks is the reason for the sentence's existence.
Similarly, it says "per use of the skill". What counts as a "use"? If someone's taking 20 on Disguise, then presumable each previous disguise is discarded when the next attempt is made. Thus, you're obviously making only one check per disguise. So I don't see any sort of contradiction here.
Also note that the check should be made secretly so you are never sure of the results. If you are never sure of the results then you effectively can never take a 20.
Now this is a more interesting point. But choosing this stance means that it's impossible to improve your results by spending any more than the minimum time (one check), which seems kind of absurd, don't you think?
While looking at the Disguise rules, I found a neat little nugget for the related topic of Take 10:
If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Perception checks.
So suspicious guards who are checking everyone coming through a gate are assumed to be taking 10 on Perception. Pretty interesting for anyone who follows T10 discussions! ;)
SKR himself (on his own 3e website) said you can't take 20 on disguise checks... making him wrong either on his website or now in this forum post.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html
I believe later opinions take precedence :P
Except making no progress, or the penalty of falling, is an inherent penalty of the climb skill. It's listed right there in the skill.
This isn't true for a lot of other skills.
Except making no progress, or the penalty of falling, is an inherent penalty of the climb skill. It's listed right there in the skill.
This isn't true for a lot of other skills.
It is the inherent penalty of a failed check you mean.
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I think if every skill had either
Take 20: yes
Take 20: nothings would have been better. It does not take up that much more space in the book.
That's exactly what I have done for my games. I went through every skill and made a decision on take-10/take-20 and set up general time parameters for each. For disguise, I would now amend it to give a circumstance bonus based on time spend, say +1 for every 10 minutes spent or something similar.
Going by the amount of fire this discussion generated on a single skill, the developers setting hard rules on every single skill would have created more problems that it solved. The current way lets GMs run it the way they want to without having to houserule everything
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I believe later opinions take precedence :PSKR himself (on his own 3e website) said you can't take 20 on disguise checks... making him wrong either on his website or now in this forum post.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html
That, and this isn't 3e.
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For those who will point to the Try Again section a disguise does not fail until someone realizes that you are not who you are trying to dress as and try to use that as a I will use my friend opening here is the problem.
1) You put on a disguise and the DM rolls in secret.
2) You go to your friend and chat with him to see if he recognizes you. "oh it is you your friend exclaims!" He points out that he recognized your nose under the disguise.
3) You change. DM rolls in secret.
4) Friend does not recognize you. Ah hah, the disguise must be perfect! You even saw your friend roll a 19 so you must have gotten 20. That would be the case only if you guys have the same modifiers.
The rolling in secret is what really preclude taking 20. You can never know when you actually did your best which is what a 20 represents.
Having someone check only works if you have the exact same modifiers including the bonus your friends get for knowing you. Because if the modifiers are different then you will never know when you got 20.
For those who will point to the Try Again section a disguise does not fail until someone realizes that you are not who you are trying to dress as and try to use that as a I will use my friend opening here is the problem.
1) You put on a disguise and the DM rolls in secret.
2) You go to your friend and chat with him to see if he recognizes you. "oh it is you your friend exclaims!" He points out that he recognized your nose under the disguise.
3) You change. DM rolls in secret.
4) Friend does not recognize you. Ah hah, the disguise must be perfect! You even saw your friend roll a 19 so you must have gotten 20. That would be the case only if you guys have the same modifiers.
The rolling in secret is what really preclude taking 20. You can never know when you actually did your best which is what a 20 represents.
Having someone check only works if you have the exact same modifiers including the bonus your friends get for knowing you. Because if the modifiers are different then you will never know when you got 20.
I was unaware that disguise had the dubious distinction of being the only secretly rolled check (officially). I had always assumed that any secret roll was up to GM discretion, further review of the skill entries proves you right though.
That being said, a roll made in secrecy would still be subject to: "Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, just calculate the result as if the die had rolled a 20." Though I most definitely suggest an opposing roll to determine success or failure.
SKR himself (on his own 3e website) said you can't take 20 on disguise checks... making him wrong either on his website or now in this forum post.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html
I think that in his website he is discussing a ruling, but on this board he was discussing a preference(how he would like it to be.)
That is clearly not what I said(with reference to your quoted section)I didn't mean that to be a representation of your position. Sorry for the confusion.
Ok. I have just had a few things taken out of context lately. Sorry bro.
It is the inherent penalty of a failed check you mean.Except making no progress, or the penalty of falling, is an inherent penalty of the climb skill. It's listed right there in the skill.
This isn't true for a lot of other skills.
In the absence of rebuttal:
A check which you cannot fail to make (by your logic). You can only fail (or succeed) to climb.
Perception checks are often made in secret by the GM, yet they are a prime example of a skill in which you can take 20.
Perception checks are often made in secret by the GM, yet they are a prime example of a skill in which you can take 20.
The point is that disguise is a check that the GM makes explicitly in secret.
SKR himself (on his own 3e website) said you can't take 20 on disguise checks... making him wrong either on his website or now in this forum post.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html
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Even so, what a developer is "comfortable with allowing" tells us a lot more about the intent of the rule than does the speculations of some random forumite who claims that the opposite position is clearly stated in the rules."Yeah, the guy who worked on the rulebook interprets his own rule that way, but that's not how it really works."
Seriously?
Yes, seriously. The devs are hardly infalliable and the rules are far from water-tight. And whether a dev is wrong or not, rule zero says a GM may run a game how he likes anyway.
Even if SKR would let a take 20 on an opposed test happen under certain circumstances, every other GM out there is in no way obliged to allow it under all circumstances.