What Gorbacz said. Gygax was important to our hobby, yes, and his death is sad just like other artists and creators. Thing is... there are unwell, unhealthy, unlucky people still alive on this planet that can't and won't benefit from a tribute to a - let's face it - dead guy. If Paizo gets into donating to charity, I'd far rather see money go to something that supports the (suffering) living.
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@Gorbacz and Anguish: I understand your opinion on this matter; it is the same as my initial one when I heard about this fund. In fact the idea of a statue seemed silly.
Upon reflection, I realized that:
- Paizo would not exist (at least not as it does today, I am aware of Arneson's contribution) without Gygax,
- as a society we erect statues to people famous for killing people (both justly and unjustly) so why not one for a man famous for encouraging creativity,
- I am certain that the money I spend on this hobby each year would be better used feeding a child somewhere yet somehow I keep buying more Pathfinder stuff,
- and there is value in our grandchildren taking their grandchildren to the birth place of DnD/Pathfinder and seeing a statue of Gygax.
Paizo is the present and future of DnD. Their logo should be associated with this project (IMHO). I just hope they remember to put secret compartment or lever in it (check for traps!!). Not my place to tell them how to spend their money; this was just a nudge hoping they would consider.
Upon reflection, I realized that:
- Paizo would not exist (at least not as it does today, I am aware of Arneson's contribution) without Gygax,
- as a society we erect statues to people famous for killing people (both justly and unjustly) so why not one for a man famous for encouraging creativity,
- I am certain that the money I spend on this hobby each year would be better used feeding a child somewhere yet somehow I keep buying more Pathfinder stuff,
- and there is value in our grandchildren taking their grandchildren to the birth place of DnD/Pathfinder and seeing a statue of Gygax.
I agree totally. In my opinion it is for a good cause and I would love to see Paizo's name attached to the project.
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Paizo is the present and future of DnD.
No, it's really not. It's insulting to both D&D and Pathfinder to say that, in my opinion. Pathfinder, while based on D&D 3.5 (an edition that Gary Gygax detested, by the way), has developed into its own entity, and will continue to diverge. D&D is 4E, and will be 5E.
I find it odd that it will only be a statue of E.G.G.
Arneson and Bledsoe deserve just as much of an honor.
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Paizo is the present and future of DnD.No, it's really not. It's insulting to both D&D and Pathfinder to say that, in my opinion. Pathfinder, while based on D&D 3.5 (an edition that Gary Gygax detested, by the way), has developed into its own entity, and will continue to diverge. D&D is 4E, and will be 5E.
This. Not considering Pathfinder to be D&D takes nothing away from PF; it's an excellent game in its own right, whatever it's called. Why insist on thinking of it as D&D? What is the significance of D&D to someone, that they would take it as exclusively synonymous with "high-quality game?" (That is, only D&D is a high-quality game; therefore, since PF is high-quality, it must be D&D.)
ETA: I believe Bob Bledsoe was the person behind Judge's Guild.
Bob Bledsoe was not only the man who created Judge's Guild but he contributed concepts to the game such as the "critical hit" mechanic.
Bob was the first Third-Party Publisher. :)
I've long since accepted that Dave Arneson and anyone that worked at Marvel comics the wasn't named Stan Lee will never get the respect that they are due.
Who's Bledsoe? Not familiar with his role in D&D history. Apparently he's even more marginalized than Arneson.
You should look up Bob Kane and Bill Finger and who contributed what to the Batman concept.
Kane came up with the name, Finger did everything else and polished a turd into one of the most popular comic book characters of all time. Who gets creation credit? Kane.
blah.
I just wanted to add that I think it's a great thing to honor one of the creators of our favorite pastime. Just don't forget that he didn't do it alone. :)
Pathfinder is great but it's just another brand of DND. Let's not get too righteous about it's continuing development and forget that it's totally rooted in 3.something.....
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Pathfinder is great but it's just another brand of DND. Let's not get too righteous about it's continuing development and forget that it's totally rooted in 3.something.....
I wouldn't even go that far--it's, IMHO, the best fantasy d20 game out there, a great exemplar of what can be done under the OGL. Why bring the D&D name into it at all?
I just wanted to add that I think it's a great thing to honor one of the creators of our favorite pastime. Just don't forget that he didn't do it alone. :)
Absolutely.
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Ack! I didn't expect my statements to be that controversial and I certainly don't want to debate the question of "is Pathfinder DnD?" (though it's tempting to take the bait). I'm a huge fan of what Paizo has done with Pathfinder.
The question I wanted to put before the Pathfinder community is "should we encourage Paizo to donate to the Gygax memorial fund?" I feel there are valid reasons to do so:
1. It salutes the man who started the concept of RPGs.
2. It firmly places Paizo in a position of saluting him with the rest of the RPG establishment. Once the statue is up it's a little too late to say "me too".
There may be more good reasons. And you may disagree with what I've said. You might think this is an awful idea and that’s fine (I thought so at first too but it has grown on me).
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I just wanted to add that I think it's a great thing to honor one of the creators of our favorite pastime. Just don't forget that he didn't do it alone. :)
Great point Chuck! That crossed my mind as well. The conclusion I came to was that 200 years from now a statue of Gygax is a wonderful launching point to learn about the other contributors (not just to DnD but others of that original RPG era like Sandy Peterson and Ken Rolston). I agree that EGG din't invent DnD and RPGs on his own and others are also deserving of such a salute. However, even if Gygax is the only one with a statue, I am certain we will have something like Wikipedia for a very long time.
Note: to be clear about my previous post, you and I know that EGG didn't do this in a vacuum. And whether or not you agree with me that EGG was the main person behind the existence of our hobby, I hope you will agree that he played a key roll. Additionally, I hope you will see figure heads are useful when talking about history. Eisenhower gets credited (and a statue!) for the success of the D-Day landing but he was not the only one planning it.
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Off-topic but actually somewhat related:
These 1st ed. AD&D core book reprints sound intriguing (although I'd like to see what the new covers are going to look like)!:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/02410000
They do look interesting. I hope they don't plan to have the same artwork cover for each.
regardless of whether you feel PF is DND or not is irrelevant. I think most would agree that Gygax is "generally acknowledged as the father of role-playing games". He's also the creater of GenCon. This has nothing to do with DND but everything to do with RESPECT for the history of RPG's. If not for Gygax there would probably be no RPG companies, as we know them today, or at least not a good enough market to keep them main stream. It's not just DND or pathfinder, but every table top system and player out there that should show a bit of respect. Gary has touched every RPG table top game in some way, be it inspiration or just helping establish the fan base that exists today for the market. Gary helped pave the way, and if not for his accomplishments and commitments table top RPG's could still be in there infancy and find themselves back in the times of "RPG'S are the devil"! PF being my system of choice i would be happy to see them as a prominent endorsement. Not because i feel they OWE it to him but more to say "we salute you and respect what your accomplished for table top role playing". After all, Paizo did republish The Anubis Murders, The Samarkand Solution, and Death in Delhi. Paizo Publishing also printed Infernal Sorceress, which correct me if i'm wrong was the only publisher to do so? This shows that Paizo did/does have some respect for the man if they printed his short novels. If paizo somehow feels this would somehow offend there fan base then give us loyal fans an option to make a donation in paizo's honor. in our "check out" give us the option of donating an X amount to the GARY GYGAX MEMORIAL FUND. I for one would feel honored to have my favorite gaming company associated with the gary gygax memorial....
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Sadly, a statue is, imho, the least appropriate way to remember (most) people who are little known beyound their representative group of 'fans'. A statue will become a memorial site for those who would remember Mr Gygax anyway and nothing mor than a curiosity (probably not even that) beyond that.
It may even seem (I am not saying it is so, but just let someone not associated with RPGs in any way read all those shiny reasons why there should be a statue)that they celebrate themselfs, in that they praise the achievement of Mr Gygax that is, more or less, that they exist.
There are libraries (and school libraries) that look for sponsorship. Take the money there, let a sign read in whose memory the gift was done and provide a few RPG books beyond that - you will have more people who will remember Mr Gygax name AND know why he should be remembered.
Please. This poost should not be read as a rant against the memorial. If any company or any gamer wants to give his money for that cause, they should by all means do. I just wanted to give my reasons why I consider this not as good as other options woul (or would have) been.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Personally I'd rather see a memorial as a scholarship or something.*
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... *words I agree with*....
Also, let's not forget the dedication on the cover page of Pathfinder hard bound books...
“This game is dedicated to Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.” And in others “This book is dedicated to Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.”The impact of Gygax on Pathfinder is fundamental and I am happy that Paizo knows this. I hope they take the extra step and become part of the legacy.
Paizo is the present and future of DnD.No, it's really not. It's insulting to both D&D and Pathfinder to say that, in my opinion. Pathfinder, while based on D&D 3.5 (an edition that Gary Gygax detested, by the way), has developed into its own entity, and will continue to diverge. D&D is 4E, and will be 5E.
Please show me where Gygax stated that he detested the 3rd edition of D&D.
Here is a link to an article from The Escapist. Maybe if the Gygax family woukd pull their own weight and stop arguing amomg themselves, they can get something done...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_251/7475-Honorin g-the-Man-Who-Started-Everything
Here is another link to how much they have mdae thus far...
http://nonprofitfacts.com/WI/Gygax-Memorial-Fund-Inc.html#overview_a
Looks like they are sucking wind. So much for the "millions" of fans claim.
Paizo is the present and future of DnD.No, it's really not. It's insulting to both D&D and Pathfinder to say that, in my opinion. Pathfinder, while based on D&D 3.5 (an edition that Gary Gygax detested, by the way), has developed into its own entity, and will continue to diverge. D&D is 4E, and will be 5E.
Paizo has built an amazing brand around Pathfinder. That said, I also agree with marv.
There are very many people for whom Pathfinder is the only continuation of the game they knew as D&D.
This means that in the space of mindshare (i.e.: what people think/feel/believe), Paizo has a substantial moral claim to the D&D brand as well.
Far from insulting, marv's statement acknowledges Paizo's position in the market and hard work they've done to get there. No kidding, there are CEOs that would kill (literally) to wrest control of a brand from another company.
How much would it be worth to have a non-trivial portion of the market believe that your company is the only one making the "real" Coca-Cola, even if another company actually owns the name?
So I'm not going to chastise anybody for calling it D&D, because consumer mindshare is where the edition wars are fought--for keeps.
The dear folks at Paizo don't need to pander to Grognards by making a grand effort to donate to the fund (reprint of AD&D by WOTC) just so they can have support for their apologetic attempt to make up for an unpopular, though not completely failed, game system (no apologies necessary for the amazing Pathfinder rules set). Anyone who wishes to donate can and should. It's definitely something worthy of support!
We could use fewer people winking and nudging in a harassing manner, though, like the internet equivalent of holiday season Salvation Army bell ringers. ;)
I find it odd that it will only be a statue of E.G.G.
Arneson and Bledsoe deserve just as much of an honor.
I have a lot stronger feelings towards Arneson than Gygax, and part of that is the fact that my wife's family had fairly significant connections with Arneson. My wife, her father, and her brother all played under Arneson whenever he was in town, more or less. I was actually given the d20 that my father-in-law took from the fishbowl of memorial d20s at Arneson's funeral. Yes, I keep it separate from the rest.
That, and I think it's wicked cool that he was teaching classes in the sort of thinking necessary to create the opportunities we see in gaming today.
