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If a game is being purposely targeted at a male audience, great! I only feel there's a basis for conversation on this stuff when I understand that a broader audience is desired.
In my specific issue with the 4th Ed. PHB, the company had stated that its goal was to bring in new players to the hobby - especially women. If this is a goal, then that image is stupid - and not only for the WonderCorset. The dragonborn with the baseball bat sword is not much more accessible as a good avatar to those unaquainted with the game. Given my understanding of WotC's goals, the image fell short very badly in many ways.
Paizo's goals, on the other hand, especially when the Seoni iconic art came out, were pretty much completely opposite this...they wanted to preserve their current market and expand their subscribership in the already extant gamer market. Thus, aside from a sigh and wry rolling of the eyes, I can't really object to that art because their imagery makes sense from a marketing perspective.
Kirth's last post on page, don't skip it!
So, I apologize if I seem like I'm trivializing anything here, but I honestly don't "get" it on some level.
It's cool. I respect you, it's nothing personal. At some point I just give up on convincing you. I guess you could see that as "winning"... though it is wise not to.
I think this conversation suffers from a lack of focus. Partly because of the original article, and partly because of the arguments people reach for when they get defensive.
In the end, it comes to this: nobody wants to be judged inferior for who they are. As humans we draw spurious conclusions about individuals based on race, sex, sexual preference, and none of it has f**+ all to do with an individual's potential.
Men, specifically, have it better than women as far as my culture is concerned. There are exceptions, but by and large you are more likely to be denied rights, paid less, or treated poorly because you are female than because you are male.
At its extreme, it leads to men who treat women as inferior. This is more acceptable in our mainstream culture than men are even aware of, because their emotional investment is limited. It isn't about sexuality, but it's often most obvious when sexuality is involved in media. I believe sexuality is a universal good, and I believe combining it with trampling individual rights is abhorrent.
The problem here is that I may be talking about specific instances in media that you also dislike, or maybe you just don't care. So it is, and will remain, very hard to have a meaningful conversation about the problem (when we can even agree what the problem is).
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You know what really pisses me off? The whole "I'm a girl so I'm supposed to be bad at math and science" thing. My former students pulled that crap all the time, and my wife and her sisters do it, and it's so pervasive and so incorrect it makes me want to puke sometimes. When I was teaching high school, the girls routinely outperformed the boys, by a fairly substantial margin, on the standardized science testing. Now that I'm in industry, when I meet with college-age people for recruiting, the chicks are routinely outperforming the dudes in engineering. Among my co-workers, some of the women are working hard and competently and professionally, and aren't getting recognized for it because so many of the other females pretend to be helpless and collect their checks and figure that's enough to get by on.
I don't think women are naturally better at those things -- I think they're dominant academically partly because young guys are more inclined to be slackers, and guys also typically work a lot harder at trying to pick up their classmates, so they have less attention left over for actual studying. But that aside, I can pretty well guarantee that women, on average, are not one iota less able in those fields than are men. Sorry, guys, but it's true. And that being the case, if I'm going to hire a female scientist or engineer, sorry sweetie, but for business purposes I don't care if you're on the beach volleyball team. I care if you're able to meet deadlines and anticipate chemical degradation products and design buildings that won't fall down.
So on the whole I spend a LOT more time worrying about women being welcome as scientists and engineers than I do about women being welcomed as gamers.
Kirth,
And most of us can do very little about the former problem given that most of us are not in positions of power within science and industry. However, we can do something about welcoming women into our games should they be mad or foolish enough to wish to participate. Fixing that may loosen the death grip on the other parts of this issue which occurs in most areas of society.|
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You know what really pisses me off? The whole "I'm a girl so I'm supposed to be bad at math and science" thing.
Bah. Girls can't do math!
:)
Obviously, given that I graduated with computer engineering degree and have been a programmer for the last decade, on a practical basis I've dealt with most of that cultural conditioning. It's not like I spend a lot of time chewing over every jerk or bad incident. Who has the time? And the people that aren't jerks far outnumber them, so why give them more power than they deserve?
Sometimes a specific incident pops up that sets me off. Or I'm in a bad mood and want to dwell on bad stuff for some retarded reason. By and large, I've got too much to do living life (and fixing all the bad programming my predecessors have foisted off on me! ::shakes fist::) to worry much. But I do like talking about it, when I get a chance to talk about it with people that want to discuss it, instead of ranting out of their own bitterness at whatever woman did them wrong.
You notice I didn't respond to what's his name when it was obvious he was just there to shake his fist and rant. :) Who has the time?
Well, what % of guys do you need to toss into a fandom before the ways guys interact, as opposed to how girls interact, is considered acceptable rather than ignorantbadwrong ?
Also, on feminism and the pulp influence on our hobby, from wikipedia:
(Robert E.) Howard had feminist views despite his era and location which he espoused in both personal and professional life. Howard wrote to his friends and associates defending the achievements and capabilities of women.[159][160] Strong female characters in Howard's works of fiction include the protofeminist Dark Agnes de Chastillon (first appearing in "Sword Woman", circa 1932-34); the early modern pirate Helen Tavrel ("The Isle of Pirates' Doom", 1928), two pirates and Conan supporting characters, Bêlit ("Queen of the Black Coast", 1934) and Valeria of the Red Brotherhood ("Red Nails", 1936); as well as the Ukrainian mercenary Red Sonya of Rogatino ("The Shadow of the Vulture", 1934).[161][
Not bad for the 30s. I can't speak for the accuracy of the thesis in that paragraph, except having read them I was in the weird position of explaining to my girlfriend that Conan was "not as misogynist as the cover art makes it appear."
Well, what % of guys do you need to toss into a fandom before the ways guys interact, as opposed to how girls interact, is considered acceptable rather than ignorantbadwrong ?
Here's the thing man, I can't define male vs female interaction; male and female are physical facts, masculine and feminine are cultural values.
You know what really pisses me off? The whole "I'm a girl so I'm supposed to be bad at math and science" thing.
I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Women are routinely told that they're not as good at math and science, in spite of (irony of ironies) studies that prove otherwise. After hearing it enough times, it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophesy. Women don't have a huge selection of female role models in those fields, either. In universities, there's a gender disparity among the faculty.
Math and science isn't the only place where you might find a woman shortage, either, though I think it's the most talked-about. I studied political science, myself, and I think there was maybe one female professor in that department. Not many women in philosophy, either; I considered minoring in that subject, but I got sick of studying the same dead white guys all the time. No female professors in that field at my university, either.
Here's the thing man, I can't define male vs female interaction; male and female are physical facts, masculine and feminine are cultural values.Well, what % of guys do you need to toss into a fandom before the ways guys interact, as opposed to how girls interact, is considered acceptable rather than ignorantbadwrong ?
They're both. And while a particular girl might communicate as one of the guys (it happens) it doesn't negate the underlying trend.
I can't precisely define dog vs coyote but there is a point where you don't call the dog catcher you just let it go about its business.
(Robert E.) Howard had feminist views despite his era and location
"Feminist views"? The dude was a total mama's boy, to the point of psychosis. Read up on why he shot himself. I really dig his stories, mind you, but I wouldn't call him a positive role model for gender roles issues, is all I'm saying.
(Robert E.) Howard had feminist views despite his era and location"Feminist views"? The dude was a total mama's boy, to the point of psychosis. Read up on why he shot himself. I really dig his stories, mind you, but I wouldn't call him a positive role model for gender roles issues, is all I'm saying.
Mind the quote blocks there, Kirth. It kinda seems like you didn't read what I wrote below the quote.
I can't precisely define dog vs coyote but there is a point where you don't call the dog catcher you just let it go about its business.
Says Rick Perry: "Here in Texas, we can tell dogs from coyotes. And we don't let the coyotes go 'bout their business. We pull out our semis with the laser sights."
(Robert E.) Howard had feminist views despite his era and location"Feminist views"? The dude was a total mama's boy, to the point of psychosis. Read up on why he shot himself. I really dig his stories, mind you, but I wouldn't call him a positive role model for gender roles issues, is all I'm saying.
But there's about 50 years between publication and the time you read it, right? Not being wiseass, historical context is worth considering is all.
Mind the quote blocks there, Kirth.
Fixed it. ;)
I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Women are routinely told that they're not as good at math and science, in spite of (irony of ironies) studies that prove otherwise. After hearing it enough times, it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Women are also increasingly hearing how good they are at those things, with proof to back it up. And some of them are listening to that message, and I'd like to see them succeed. But they suffer because of the others who are selectively ignoring that message and focusing on the other one.
I'm not saying that all women should go into math and science. I AM saying that all women should stop telling their sisters and girlfriends "Don't worry, math just seems hard because you're a girl and girls aren't good at that stuff, so there's no point in studying." I'm certainly not telling them they're bad at math and science. I don't hear "society" telling them they're bad at math and science. I very often hear other girls telling them they're bad at math and science.
Here's the thing man, I can't define male vs female interaction; male and female are physical facts, masculine and feminine are cultural values.Well, what % of guys do you need to toss into a fandom before the ways guys interact, as opposed to how girls interact, is considered acceptable rather than ignorantbadwrong ?
They're both. And while a particular girl might communicate as one of the guys (it happens) it doesn't negate the underlying trend.
I can't precisely define dog vs coyote but there is a point where you don't call the dog catcher you just let it go about its business.
It's my day off, and I've been drinking; if I offend anyone, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intent.
My point was, until you can describe the difference between girl's and boy's means of communication, I don't think sex or gender is a very cogent means of differentiation.
Saying "the way girls communicate!" is not an adequate description.
I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Women are routinely told that they're not as good at math and science, in spite of (irony of ironies) studies that prove otherwise. After hearing it enough times, it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophesy.Turn it around, though: with all the studies they're hearing that tell them how good they are at those things, that doesn't matter -- somehow they're selectively ignoring that message and focusing on the other one.
I'm not saying that all women should go into math and science. I AM saying that all women should stop telling their sisters and girlfriends "Don't worry, math just seems hard because you're a girl and girls aren't good at that stuff, so there's no point in studying."
I don't know if you've seen the Sylvan Learning Center ads, but the prepubescent boy asks his mother for help with math homework and she like flees the house and runs down the street. The voice-over says, "Math was hard when you were young, and it's only gotten harder."
I'm thinking, "Oh really? Did they invent a new set of numbers since then?"I really can't list the ways that ad took advantage of female stereotypes, but I will say it was very obvious writing.
EDIT: yes, the only interior set was the kitchen.
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I'm not saying that all women should go into math and science. I AM saying that all women should stop telling their sisters and girlfriends "Don't worry, math just seems hard because you're a girl and girls aren't good at that stuff, so there's no point in studying."
This is a broader problem than just women in math and science. It's for kids in general. The poison of low expectations or a parent's negative attitude toward school poisoning their child's experience is rampant.
My dad was often part of the crowd telling me "Girls can't do that." He actually would take books away from me that had female protagonists because "Girls can't be heroes." But he was big on school, and whether it was tied up in his own pride (my genes will make even a female smart!) or he truly believes women can be as intelligent as men, I never got the impression that I couldn't do well in school from him while growing up. A good friend had parents that loved her, thought she was the cutest little thing, and patted her on the head and explained they understood she wouldn't do as well in school as her brother, and that was okay. She believed she couldn't, and it took some serious encouragement from her husband for her to get her GED.
I'm going to try as hard as I can to encourage my kids to strive to do better, while keeping in mind that each child will have difference capabilties - doing the best you can in everything, and finding hte things you love and excel at are what matters. A little pushing without being overbearing or expecting too much has to be a difficult path to walk sometimes, but I want to try to do the best I can.
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I don't know if you've seen the Sylvan Learning Center adds, but the prepubescent boy asks his mother for help with math homework and she like flees the house and runs down the street. The voice-over says, "Math was hard when you were young, and it's only gotten harder."
I'm thinking, "Oh really? Did they invent a new set of numbers since then?"I really can't list the ways that ad took advantage of female stereotypes, but I will say it was very obvious writing.
Haven't seen the adds, because they'd make me go ballistic. But math IS hard. It's hard for girls. It's hard for boys, too. It was hard for Einstein (prompting his famous quotation).
Paizo's goals, on the other hand, especially when the Seoni iconic art came out, were pretty much completely opposite this...they wanted to preserve their current market and expand their subscribership in the already extant gamer market. Thus, aside from a sigh and wry rolling of the eyes, I can't really object to that art because their imagery makes sense from a marketing perspective.
Except ...
Right after Seoni, Paizo then created both Merisiel and Kyra. Neither of which are especially "fanservice" oriented.
Stuff that makes me want to pull my hair out, scream, and cry on her behalf.
I feel for you, Jess. A LOT. And I was going to say that I can't even imagine what that must be like... but then I remembered all the people telling me I could never be an artist because I wasn't "creative" enough. By "creative," they meant "flighty and neurotic." And to this day I refuse to accept that you have to be a basket case in order to pick up a paint brush or design a building.
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Paizo's goals, on the other hand, especially when the Seoni iconic art came out, were pretty much completely opposite this...they wanted to preserve their current market and expand their subscribership in the already extant gamer market. Thus, aside from a sigh and wry rolling of the eyes, I can't really object to that art because their imagery makes sense from a marketing perspective.Except ...
Right after Seoni, Paizo then created both Merisiel and Kyra. Neither of which are especially "fanservice" oriented.
I'm talking about why the 4th Edition PHB cover was particularly annoying, and why the most annoying similar Paizo art from the same time period was worthy of a little exasperation, maybe, but makes more sense from the business perspective of Paizo.
I don't know where your "except" comes in. I'm explaining how much context has to do with whether a piece of art annoys me, not trying to start something. Are you?
<extremely confused />
Look there're plenty of creative scientists out there, unless you want to split the difference between scientists and inventors or something.
And yeah, math is hard, but no harder for the rest of us, right? I mean, once you get it, you get it.
EDIT: Like I said, it's my day off, I've been drinking, and thus forgot to hit reply; I was talking to kirth 4 posts back.
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And to this day I refuse to accept that you have to be a basket case in order to pick up a paint brush or design a building.
Hey! I've done some amazing programming while working late at night with a fever and powerful cold medicines coursing through my system. Looking at the code the next morning, I couldn't untangle how it worked...but running it through its paces, it did! It's enough to make me reconsider my own anti-altered state policy - in the name of science!
And to this day I refuse to accept that you have to be a basket case in order to pick up a paint brush or design a building.Hey! I've done some amazing programming while working late at night with a fever and powerful cold medicines coursing through my system. Looking at the code the next morning, I couldn't untangle how it worked...but running it through its paces, it did! It's enough to make me reconsider my own anti-altered state policy - in the name of science!
OMG, we're already blurring the line between feminine and masculine, can we please not bring art vs science into it?
And to this day I refuse to accept that you have to be a basket case in order to pick up a paint brush or design a building.Hey! I've done some amazing programming while working late at night with a fever and powerful cold medicines coursing through my system. Looking at the code the next morning, I couldn't untangle how it worked...but running it through its paces, it did! It's enough to make me reconsider my own anti-altered state policy - in the name of science!
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that dungeon siege movie
My hetero life partner wanted to see that, so 4 members of our gaming group went and saw it at some movieplex in semi-rural New Hampshire.
We were the only people in the theater. The movie was terrible. [Bubble bubble bubble] What fun!
Anyway, ALL of the modern crop of Hollywood action heroes are way too metrosexual to be real action heroes. Jason Statham?!? Pfft. Lee Marvin would've womped his ass. Daniel Craig?!? Sean Connery would have made mincemeat of him using only his accent. And that's the best of the lot. (Genuine martial artists excluded.)
I'm talking about why the 4th Edition PHB cover was particularly annoying, and why the most annoying similar Paizo art from the same time period was worthy of a little exasperation, maybe, but makes more sense from the business perspective of Paizo.
I don't know where your "except" comes in. I'm explaining how much context has to do with whether a piece of art annoys me, not trying to start something. Are you?
Actually, yes I am trying to start something.
But, my point was that Paizo, if anything, has made a great deal of effort to include a wide variety of portrayals of female characters - from the "stripperiffic (Alahazra) to the very realistic/practical (Reiko) with a variety of stops in between (Seelah). From the "marketing" perspective, should they not have all been "fanservice" art?
Although, I do like Clive Owen.
I'm half convinced it's only hard because we spend so much time telling kids it is.
Let me clarify: it's hard in the same way that almost everything is hard. You can't be a formula one champion until you learn to drive a car. You can't be Bruce Lee unless you're willing to spend all those hundreds of thousands of hours in training. You can't do math unless you spend the time and work the problems. But math has less tolerance than a lot of other endeavors, because when you do it incorrectly, the answer is just plain wrong. Whereas if you write English incorrectly, there's always that lame, "well, you know what I meant" to fall back on.
The men should stop telling their sisters and daughters and students the same thing as well.
Like I said in the part you quoted, I don't tell them that, and I've never first-hand heard another man do it, either.
[humor] If I did, I'd kick his ass and tell him he hits like a girl! How's that for gender mysanthropy! [/humor]
Although, I do like Clive Owen.
ZOMG, Children of Men FTW!
What, I talk in this vocabulary all the time, no big deal.
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Just don't become GLaDOS.
If Jess wants to do that, it's well within her rights. And if you are trying to trample on her rights, we'll punch you out with a bear. That's just what we do.
Jason Statham?!? Pfft. Lee Marvin would've womped his ass.
Part of my problem was that I was watching him star in a remake of a Charles Bronson movie, and NO ONE (except maybe Danny Trejo) is as manly as old Chuck. Lee Marvin would've whomped Mel Gibson's ass, as long as we're talking remakes (Payback/Point Blank).
I'm talking about why the 4th Edition PHB cover was particularly annoying, and why the most annoying similar Paizo art from the same time period was worthy of a little exasperation, maybe, but makes more sense from the business perspective of Paizo.
I don't know where your "except" comes in. I'm explaining how much context has to do with whether a piece of art annoys me, not trying to start something. Are you?
Actually, yes I am trying to start something.
But, my point was that Paizo, if anything, has made a great deal of effort to include a wide variety of portrayals of female characters - from the "stripperiffic (Alahazra) to the very realistic/practical (Reiko) with a variety of stops in between (Seelah). From the "marketing" perspective, should they not have all been "fanservice" art?
What's nice about Reiko is, aside from the blousing around her chest, there's noting overtly feminine about the character design (compare to Seoni); I've said it before, but I think Paizo's art team does pretty well on the design front.
The men should stop telling their sisters and daughters and students the same thing as well.Like I said in the part you quoted, I don't tell them that, and I've never first-hand heard another man do it, either.
It can be more subtle than that, and possibly even unconscious. What kind of message does it send if a teacher calls on boys to answer math/science questions more often than girls?
When I was in grade 7, my (male) teacher would have students solve math problems on the board. I remember counting the number of boys he'd call on, compared to girls, and the boys outnumbered the girls. I doubt my teacher even realized he was doing it. It doesn't send a positive message to girls, that's for sure.
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Although, I do like Clive Owen.ZOMG, Children of Men FTW!
What, I talk in this vocabulary all the time, no big deal.
Yes, that was wicked f&%!ing awesome. (You ever read the book? It's okay, but the movie is the shiznit!) He's a fine, handsome fellow. [Sigh]
But he's no Charles Bronson! No motherf~@+in' Warren Oates! Give me men, damn it, men!
Like, when they stripped Hugh Jackman down and he had a little patch of fuzz on his chest and that is Hollywood's idea of a hairy man?!? My shoulders grow more hair than that!
You see, ladies, it's not just you who have problems with media and self-image.
[Strikes sexy pose]
What kind of message does it send if a teacher calls on boys to answer math/science questions more often than girls?
As a former science teacher, I was intensely conscious of that, believe me. Every kid needs to be called on with the same frequency, in the same way -- the rich kids, the underprivileged kids, the kids good in your subject, the kids who didn't give a damn, the boys, the girls... you name it. I would assert that any math or science teacher who allowed himself, even subconsciously, to favor certain people over gender should be removed immediately. Then again, a lot of my so-called "colleagues" weren't really qualified to wash out the lab glassware, so I'm not saying it doesn't happen -- just that I personally haven't seen it happening, or I'd likely have acted to correct it.
Although, I do like Clive Owen.ZOMG, Children of Men FTW!
What, I talk in this vocabulary all the time, no big deal.
Yes, that was wicked f&#+ing awesome. (You ever read the book? It's okay, but the movie is the shiznit!) He's a fine, handsome fellow. [Sigh]
But he's no Charles Bronson! No motherf#++in' Warren Oates! Give me men, damn it, men!
Like, when they stripped Hugh Jackman down and he had a little patch of fuzz on his chest and that is Hollywood's idea of a hairy man?!? My shoulders grow more hair than that!
You see, ladies, it's not just you who have problems with media and self-image.
[Strikes sexy pose]
Perilously close to melding this thread with the book one but, P.D. James is not the kind of elder british lady who usually writes science fiction. Have you read Never Let Me Go? Worth it but depressing.
My shoulders grow more hair than that!
I take it you're a Chuck Norris fan, then? That dude grows more hair on his knuckles than most people do on their heads!
My shoulders grow more hair than that!I take it you're a Chuck Norris fan, then? That dude grows more hair on his knuckles than most people do on their heads!
So baboons have Dude Rights? Noted.
Ha, ha, ha, it is I, Doodlebug Anklebiter, notorious melder of threads!
Goblins do it in the middle of the road!
I said it last night on another thread: dude, it's obvious...
[Eh-hem]
Back on topic: Fun quotes from my favorite feminist writer.
Actually, yes I am trying to start something.I most manifestly am not. I have addressed all this previously, and will cordially leave this part of the conversation as is.
Okay, but don't be afraid to butt in; I prefer your point of view to his :)
Okay, but don't be afraid to butt in; I prefer your point of view to his :)Actually, yes I am trying to start something.I most manifestly am not. I have addressed all this previously, and will cordially leave this part of the conversation as is.
Did I step over some unspoken line? This thread diverged significantly after my last post without a single hint that I'd even made it.