We overcame most of the dangers of our recent adventure with a water walk spell.
The final battle happening in a room made of ice (so all the floor was ice, that didn't matter since we had the spell) and contained pit traps where the 'lids' were thin ice (about an inch or two). The spell says that you are hovering an inch over any liquid, including ice (or mud, or lava). Is there still pressure enough against the ground to have triggered the traps?
You're levitating, so no.
Director of Narrative
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While you are not physically touching the surface, you'd be safe, but as far as springing the traps go, you'd have to look at what the Trigger part of the trap stat block says to know if you'd set it off. I'd say you'd be safe from a location and touch trigger, but maybe not a proximity trigger. Chances are the trap didn't have a visual, sound, timed, or spell trigger, so you're probably clear there too.
My GM is still not happy with this answer. He says that it breaks the game if we are levitating, that line only existing for the lava part of the spell. He also claims that we would have to make fly checks.
Does anyone else want to put in their two cents?
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You would not make fly checks. At best you would make Acrobatics checks.
The Heavens oracle has a similar levitation with Lure of the Heavens. I doubt the intention is that the oracle must, from then on, make fly checks every time a stiff wind hits.
This probably operates more similarly to a low-scale Air Walk spell: The spell is giving you "ground" to walk on when it holds you up. You don't make fly checks because those assume you are using wings to hold yourself in place (EDIT: Or a magical replacement for wings.). Even though you're in the air, you can move just as though you were still touching solid ground and can thus resist the wind more easily (no fly checks).
Note that Air Walk *does* impose penalties in high winds, but it's not a fly check because you can't fly. If you chose to fly, then you aren't using Air Walk and use the flight rules instead (which would include such fly checks). I would say a fair ruling is to treat it like Air Walk does: You move slower with wind against you (faster with wind working for you), and might lose control in fast winds (60mph+ I'm guessing).
A word of warning: A DM that looks at a slightly odd thing and immediately declares "broken" probably has their own idea of how the game should work and is unlikely to accept outside opinions. (Just my experience.)
My GM is still not happy with this answer. He says that it breaks the game if we are levitating, that line only existing for the lava part of the spell. He also claims that we would have to make fly checks.
Does anyone else want to put in their two cents?
I for one don't think that Water Walking should even function over lava - where's the water? I'm also not certain that it should apply to ice. Water implies liquid water, otherwise, does the spell allow you to walk on steam as well?
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I for one don't think that Water Walking should even function over lava - where's the water? I'm also not certain that it should apply to ice. Water implies liquid water, otherwise, does the spell allow you to walk on steam as well?My GM is still not happy with this answer. He says that it breaks the game if we are levitating, that line only existing for the lava part of the spell. He also claims that we would have to make fly checks.
Does anyone else want to put in their two cents?
Pro tip: Characters can already walk on Ice. This spell just says that so that if you cross ice that thinly covers water you don't have to worry about breaking though the ice as you walk, which would make movement quite awkward.
As for functioning over lava.... meh.
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I'm the GM mentioned above and for the record I brought up fly checks only when comparing movement methods. I also didn't immediately claim broken on the spell. After reading the spell description carefully a couple things really stood out.
The spell mentions firm ground, normal ground and standing on the liquid which to me means the "solid" liquid is able to support your weight. It does not say you are levitating on the liquid and I feel only mentions "hover an inch or two above the liquid" as a way to explain why you are not injured by standing on lava, acid, etc.
You do not suffer direct contact damage.
If you did still suffer damage from lava, acid, etc. the spell would be very limited in use.
Yes you can already walk on ice but doing so is much more difficult than normal ground and with water walk you can run, charge, etc. just like normal/firm ground.
Flying allows you to glide over the liquid but requires checks if not moving at least half speed, or making certain turns, etc. and you cannot run while flying.
Finally, the part about being borne to the surface is a way the designers avoided creatures getting stuck in a "solid" liquid as some type of nasty trick.
The thing I'm pondering the most is whether the moving liquid acts as a conveyor belt or not.
Oh, and to StabDoom, the ice wouldn't break through in your example because the water below it supports the weight of the person, like ice over firm ground.
Good thing Artimedorus posted. That's long and confusing. I was starting to consider reposting his most recent email. I still vote it doesn't matter. Does it matter with air walk? No, unless there are high wind conditions. The water walk spell even says that that you can take all movement actions as if it were firm ground. Water always moves, so in many cases it would be impossible to decide how it would effect you.
-Xander
My GM is still not happy with this answer. He says that it breaks the game if we are levitating, that line only existing for the lava part of the spell. He also claims that we would have to make fly checks.
Does anyone else want to put in their two cents?
This is incorrect - I can assure you that the levitation statement applies to ALL the granular, liquid and frozen fluids mentioned (Mud, oil, snow, quicksand, running water, ice, and even lava....) not just to lava.
You would not of course levitate over any solid ground, stone or soil etc.
Nowhere does it say this is a 'flight' or full levitation effect - the character has to 'walk on' the relevant surface - so it should require no more effort that walking normally.
That the GM should Grow Up and not be concerned about "winning" or "beating the players" - the players have won this round - There is always tomorrow.My GM is still not happy with this answer. He says that it breaks the game if we are levitating, that line only existing for the lava part of the spell. He also claims that we would have to make fly checks.
Does anyone else want to put in their two cents?
facepalm
This is why you don't GM bash. The GM in question is already in the thread, and made a quite reasonable concern known. If you're only working with one side of a story, assume the other side is reasonable as well, until you hear it, too.
I'm the GM mentioned above and for the record I brought up fly checks only when comparing movement methods. I also didn't immediately claim broken on the spell. After reading the spell description carefully a couple things really stood out.
The spell mentions firm ground, normal ground and standing on the liquid which to me means the "solid" liquid is able to support your weight. It does not say you are levitating on the liquid and I feel only mentions "hover an inch or two above the liquid" as a way to explain why you are not injured by standing on lava, acid, etc.
You do not suffer direct contact damage.
If you did still suffer damage from lava, acid, etc. the spell would be very limited in use.
Yes you can already walk on ice but doing so is much more difficult than normal ground and with water walk you can run, charge, etc. just like normal/firm ground.
Flying allows you to glide over the liquid but requires checks if not moving at least half speed, or making certain turns, etc. and you cannot run while flying.
Finally, the part about being borne to the surface is a way the designers avoided creatures getting stuck in a "solid" liquid as some type of nasty trick.
The thing I'm pondering the most is whether the moving liquid acts as a conveyor belt or not.
Oh, and to StabDoom, the ice wouldn't break through in your example because the water below it supports the weight of the person, like ice over firm ground.
The transmuted creatures can tread on any liquid as if it were firm ground. Mud, oil, snow, quicksand, running water, ice, and even lava can be traversed easily, since the subjects' feet hover an inch or two above the surface. Creatures crossing molten lava still take damage from the heat because they are near it. The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground.If the spell is cast underwater (or while the subjects are partially or wholly submerged in whatever liquid they are in), the subjects are borne toward the surface at 60 feet per round until they can stand on it.
So, Artimedorus, I think there's a couple points here.
You mention that characters simply float about the surface as a way to explain away damage from lava/acid. Actually, the spell itself says you still take residual heat damage from the proximity to lava.
Based on the sentence structure (which is admittedly somewhat poor), I think it's safe to assume that Water Walk causes the target to hover a small distance from whatever liquid surface, and acts as if the target were on solid ground.
You attributed that to the developers explaining something away.
My advice is: don't. Treat the spell as if it does exactly what it says. It's not a get out of jail free card, and it's not going to ruin a campaign. At the very least, the creative use of the spell will make the players feel clever, and it will be awesome in their minds.
You have some elbow room to set some limits, of course. Obviously there's humidity in the air, so would you let a character water walk a couple inches above each water molecule (of course not).
Conversely, let's say there's a waterfall, would you let a character just waltz down the falls without a care in the world (most likely not).
So, with those limits, then, I would ask myself "Self, was there enough ice over those traps for the spell to work?" If not, I should think that the ice is thin enough to see through, so a unfailable perception check would alert someone to its presence. In which case, the spell is still useful so that the target doesn't 'slide' into the trap.
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Just to be clear, what's in question here is whether you exert a downward force or not with this spell. Since the spell mentions walking, firm ground, normal ground, and standing I feel the answer is yes. What defines solid ground is a substance that can support your weight. As Caliburn mentioned you are walking on the liquid which means it has to at least be supporting your weight and when you run even more.
Hopefully we can stay on target here and discuss the spell's intention and not drift into the world of "winning against the PCs" etc.
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To add, the players were rewarded with being able to cross a deep and very cold lake as well as being able to move throughout a 100 ft high ice spire with easy. The ice spiked pit traps were just nice little curve balls thrown at them, which using a wand of fireballs they beautifully "disarmed". Well, save the monk who found one pit the hard way.
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We overcame most of the dangers of our recent adventure with a water walk spell.
The final battle happening in a room made of ice (so all the floor was ice, that didn't matter since we had the spell) and contained pit traps where the 'lids' were thin ice (about an inch or two). The spell says that you are hovering an inch over any liquid, including ice (or mud, or lava). Is there still pressure enough against the ground to have triggered the traps?
'Pressure' takes you down the route of thinking of this like a physicist, which isn't a direction you want to go in a fantasy role-playing game.
The spell makes the surface act as if it were solid ground, therefore the ice lid will not break and the pit trap is neutralised.
The spell description specifically mentions running water as being treated as normal ground while the spell is in effect, so no, there is no conveyor belt effect. I don't know if anyone here played Final Fantasy, but in some of its iterations there was a spell called Float. It essentially allowed you to ignore anything on the floor. This is essentially the same spell. It just arbitrairily requires you to be able to claim some sort of fluid dynamic is involved to get the benefit.
One word: hover. Google the definition of hovering. End discussion.
And for those debating you'd have to hover over the water molecules in the air, google the definition of liquid.
And for those debating you'd have to hover over the water molecules in the air, google the definition of liquid.
You might notice, when you're done feeling pleased with yourself over easily "solving" this dilemma less intelligent people are having, that the spell specifies it works on ice. Which, I'm sure Google can inform you, is not a liquid.
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And for those debating you'd have to hover over the water molecules in the air, google the definition of liquid.You might notice, when you're done feeling pleased with yourself over easily "solving" this dilemma less intelligent people are having, that the spell specifies it works on ice. Which, I'm sure Google can inform you, is not a liquid.
... but will have a thin film of liquid water on top of it if the air is above 0 degrees.
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Again I think the hover thing is only a poor choice of wording to explain not really touching the liquid that is firm ground. Also, I'm pretty sure "hovering" does require a solid surface to act against, say like a hovercraft. Hover is the not same as fly or levitate. Also check out the feat Hover. It only works at a certain distance to the ground.
Back to the question, do you put weight on the "solid" liquid or ice with this spell? My opinion is yes and eventhough it probably only matters when dealing with thin ice over an open space it will come up again in my game, perhaps with some other liquid as well than could trigger something.
I can imagine columns of water/acid that you stand on and have to move/push down with a certain amount of weight you carry. That could be really cool to "solve". You'd need to keep the spell going/not be dispelled as you figure out which columns to step on and what weight to use.
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Again I think the hover thing is only a poor choice of wording to explain not really touching the liquid that is firm ground. Also, I'm pretty sure "hovering" does require a solid surface to act against, say like a hovercraft. Hover is the not same as fly or levitate. Also check out the feat Hover. It only works at a certain distance to the ground.
Back to the question, do you put weight on the "solid" liquid or ice with this spell? My opinion is yes and eventhough it probably only matters when dealing with thin ice over an open space it will come up again in my game, perhaps with some other liquid as well than could trigger something.
I can imagine columns of water/acid that you stand on and have to move/push down with a certain amount of weight you carry. That could be really cool to "solve". You'd need to keep the spell going/not be dispelled as you figure out which columns to step on and what weight to use.
Just wanted to make the comment, a hovercraft does not need a solid surface to "hover" on, they go on water as well as land.
If the spell is does not say, I say that it is up to the GM to make the call.
My personal take on it is that it does not exert any pressure on the surface. But I am of the opinion that, if it makes the story move and fun, go for it.
Might be important to trackers. If you cross a lake with a thin sheet of ice using this spell and it causes a downward force would it not break the thin ice? This could then be tracked. I think the ice counts a water and thus would never break. If it did, then the spell has failed to accomplish its purpose.
I would be inclined to say "You can get the air gap as long as you move slow." An MMO I once played that had levitate had a mechanic where the farther you move forward, the closer to the ground you go, to the point where you'd touch it at times if you didn't pause to get some distance again.
Limiting yourself to one kind of trap also seems too passive for an epic ice spire, have periodic steam geysers that would freeze as they erupted, spraying shrapnel (That spire has to form somehow), and have periodic patrols that they'd want to dodge, forcing them to move faster than normal at times, risking touchdown, triggering pressure traps, stampeding them into a geyser, etc.
In other words, make it an exercise in Murphy's law. "We've got this spell, what could GO WRONG?"
Something I would point out about lava. I cook meat over a 500 degree F flame without the flame touching the meat. Lava is somewhere around 2000 degrees F, even if they are not actually touching the lava, they are taking heat damage if they do not have fire resistance of some form.
Of course, that is assuming the lava is a nice placid lake of molten rock. If the lava were bubbling and occasionaly releasing spurts of liquid rock, that would be a bit more painful to just walk across.